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Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

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I'll give him a starting off point:

[qimg]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/who007/online-ruler-1.jpg[/qimg]

It's challenging for me to understand how some posters fail to see how that fact furthers Zimmerman's justification claim. It detracts heavily from the "will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent" element of the crime. Zimmerman clearly was not on the offensive in this assault. It removes the hypothetical claim that Zimmerman overreacted to a simple fistfight. Most importantly, it's clear evidence of the disparity of force that existed between Martin and Zimmerman before the fatal gunshot.

It will be the defense, not the state, that highlights the extent of Martin's pre-mortem injuries. The only way this works against Zimmerman is if he claimed that the injuries on the back of his head were the results of punches instead on having his head slammed against concrete.
 
I think Zimmerman was punched once in the nose and scraped and cut his head while rolling around on the ground in the ensuing struggle. And the nature of his injures correspond with that theory.

You seem to think Zimmerman suffered a beating (i.e. repeated blows). What evidence do you have that supports that theory?

n.m.
 
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How can you possibly say that when we have seen only about half the discovery?

I think this quote is a little stronger than your summation:

"We have Mr. Zimmerman's statements, we have the shell casings and we had Mr. Martin's body. "

I can say that because I think the rest of the discovery will do nothing for your side of the case. Serino had all of the evidence in this case except for DeeDee, and he said there was no reliable evidence that it wasn't self defense. So, if you have a game changer, it will have to be DeeDee, and I personally think her nose will grow a foot if she says she heard TM say "get off me" on the stand.
 
It's challenging for me to understand how some posters fail to see how that fact furthers Zimmerman's justification claim. It detracts heavily from the "will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent" element of the crime. Zimmerman clearly was not on the offensive in this assault. It removes the hypothetical claim that Zimmerman overreacted to a simple fistfight. Most importantly, it's clear evidence of the disparity of force that existed between Martin and Zimmerman before the fatal gunshot.

It will be the defense, not the state, that highlights the extent of Martin's pre-mortem injuries. The only way this works against Zimmerman is if he claimed that the injuries on the back of his head were the results of punches instead on having his head slammed against concrete.
I totally disagree with your characterization of what a punch to the nose so hard it drops a man with 40 pounds on a teenager (who has no history of fights) to the ground (which is what Z claims,) and not only that, leaves a tiny laceration and a "likely broken" nose that the man so injured refused medical advice not once, but by his own "likely broken" doctor, who advised him to see an ENT doctor. Which he didn't.

And people who are on the defensive - show defensive wounds.

On Z, there are none.
 
I can say that because I think the rest of the discovery will do nothing for your side of the case. Serino had all of the evidence in this case except for DeeDee, and he said there was no reliable evidence that it wasn't self defense. So, if you have a game changer, it will have to be DeeDee, and I personally think her nose will grow a foot if she says she heard TM say "get off me" on the stand.
Serino wanted to file a Capias. Fact.

That he didn't want to piss off his boss who overruled him on that: speculation, but likely.

Serino wanted to file a Capias. Fact.

The SA made it clear it was many of Z's own statements that do him in. None of those we have seen yet. But we will.....soon. With hopes.

Something like 20 days (not counting exactly) till O'Mara must release discovery made available to him on or about the 1st.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And isn't it true that a lot of statements that he made do not make sense in terms of the injuries that he described. Did he not describe to the police that Mr. Martin had him on the ground and kept bashing his head on the concrete over and over and just physically beating him with his hands?

GILBREATH: He has said that, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And isn't it true that there is evidence that indicates that's not true?

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he also not state that at some point, he the defendant -- did he not state or claim that the victim in this case, Mr. Martin, put both hands one over his mouth and one over his nose so that he couldn't breathe?

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And all of sudden that's when he was able to get free and grab the gun. Or I'm sorry, Martin was grabbing for the gun, did he not claim that too at some point. climb that?

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But -- and I'm going to get into every little contradiction but wouldn't you agree that a lot of his statements can be contradicted by the evidence either witnesses or just based on what he says himself?
GILBREATH: Yes.​
 
There seems to be a lot of trouble understanding how speculation can be used as a tool. First off, speculation is not immunity from scrutiny. You can't just put forth a speculation and expect it to be unchallenged. Secondly, factual conclusions cannot be drawn from speculation. We can agree or disagree on likelyhoods and we can discuss how things are or aren't always what they seem but we cannot speculate x, add it to y and factually conclude Z.

Now, I don't not like this "proZimmerman/anti Zimmerman" nonesense. If it can be neatly divided into two sides (which I feel is more of a sliding scale) it is the "guilty/not enough evidence" sides. I get the impression that the "not enough evidence" side would not lose sleep or even feel like they've been wrong all this time, if tomorrow someone came along and presented a video of Zimmerman belly-crawling through the complex with gun in hand, and shooting Trayvon in cold blood." What we would finally have is what we've been asking for; evidence.

So far, the way I see it and I don't think I am alone: We have George Zimmerman on the phone, reporting Trayvon's movements. GZ gets out of the truck, admits to following him on the phone, and then says okay when he is told that it was not necessary. From that point we can speculate that he is honest that he was looking at addresses and not following TM or that he was dishonest, but neither speculation holds much weight, in the grand scheme because we don't know.

Then we have the altercation. We have GZ's version; Trayvon approached him, hit him, climbed on top of him, and beat his head against the ground. We have one eye witness that can identify who was on top and who was on bottom, and who was hitting who. We have one eye witness that, from a distance, saw one person on top of another but cannot identify who was hitting who. We have another witness who did not see the altercation but claims that since she didn't hear a fight, the fight didn't happen. Finally we have a phone witness who heard an altercation begin, but can't say with any reasonable certainty, who started it. In all honesty, which witness is the most reliable? We can reasonably conclude that an altercation took place.

None of those witnesses can say who actually started the fight. That is where speculation comes in. "I think GZ started because x," "I think TM started it because X," or "I don't know who started it."

Then we have the moments after the shot was fired. Him having any wounds at all was certainly open to questioning, until the photos were released. The first videos, I can certainly understand the doubt. I can see how so many concluded that there was no major altercation because look at the police station videos. The mood quickly changed to, look, no wounds, GZ was lying. What broken nose? No marks on his face! Some people remained a little questionable, at this point. "Look, those are not exactly high quality videos so details are most definitely getting scrubed out." Wouldn't you know it, weeks later pictures of the back of GZ's head, moments after the fight emerge and there it was, blood dripping down the back of his head from wounds that were not visible in the low quality video. Police pictures, that everyone was so sure were never taken because they didn't get released, show a cut on his nose and some scratches on his face.

Now we have some room for more speculation. We don't know exactly what GZ's sworn statements claim but we have bits and pieces that suggest he was punched in the face, TM climbed on top of him, hit his head against the ground, and attempted to cover his mouth. You can't really tell from the pictures, if that's dried blood or scratches next to his beard and over by his ears, but if they are, that would be wounds consistent with the struggle he allegedly described. That is speculation. He has wounds on his nose that are consistent with a punch to the nose and wounds on the back of his head that are consistent with getting you head hit on a hard surface. So if X is true (x being the specific claimes of the assault) then y is true (Y being Trayvon Martin was assaulting Zimmerman). Room for debate is the severity of the assault and if the wounds are consistent. What is not open to debate, anymore, are the existence of wounds.

So evidence for GZ is corroborating eyewitness accounts; wounds that could be consistent the the assault we think he claimed, took place (very shakey at this point but can be clarified and moved accordingly, with the release of his statements), gunshot forensics consistent with his claim, according to the police; grass on the back of his clothes consistent with his claim, an eyewitness who claims he saw GZ on the bottom, calling for help, and the timeline starting from a rough guestimate of when the actual altercation started to the gunshot consistent with GZ's alleged story.

Problematic for either side is the timeline between when the police call ended and the beginning of the altercation, which, with the release of his statements can be clarified as either supporting his story or negating his story. At this point it's only useful in saying we have unanswered questions.

Now we have the evidence against Zimmerman. Two experts, using two different techniques claiming that it was not Zimmerman's voice. The first expert, I don't know there has been room for doubt. The second expert sounds like a bit of a quack. Then we have the FBI's technique that didn't appear to draw any reliable conclusion. There is room for debate.

We have the DA's claim that GZ's stories were inconsistent. Because we've seen none of the stories, I choose to withhold judgement. That doesn't mean I feel that the DA is lying or that the evidence is insufficient. I am saying that I would like to see the inconsistencies myself, before I decide if there is enough of a variation to call GZ a liar or if the variations are simple and honest variations that occur as time passes between the event and recollection of the event. Telling me that the prosecutor says so, so it must be true has been bunked by prosecutors in the past, going forward with cases on really bad evidence. That does not nullify the evidence in this case, it just makes me reluctant to jump on that bandwagon.

We have the girlfriend. I can't discount her story, completely, because of the events surrounding the release of her story, for the same reason I can't discount GZ's statements because of the circumstances around his story. Both need to be looked at with more scrutiny.

If I am missing evidence, feel free to add it on and I am more than willing to discuss. However, at this point, if I were sitting in a jury box, I don't know if I would even be able to vote yes on manslaughter, forget about Murder 2. My position is not solid. I've made no claims of innocence, I just feel that at this point there is not enough to vote guilty. If you choose to read that as pro Zimmerman, it is a fault in your logic, not mine.
 
Something like 20 days (not counting exactly) till O'Mara must release discovery made available to him on or about the 1st.

Not trying to be a smart-arse here, but it's the state that releases evidence to the public. Mark O'Mara is a private person and not accountable to Florida's Sunshine Law.
 
"...
Then we have the altercation. We have GZ's version; Trayvon approached him, hit him, climbed on top of him, and beat his head against the ground. We have one eye witness that can identify who was on top and who was on bottom, and who was hitting who."
...

I stopped right there.

No, we don't have a witness who says that.
 
Not trying to be a smart-arse here, but it's the state that releases evidence to the public. Mark O'Mara is a private person and not accountable to Florida's Sunshine Law.
O'Mara is the one who requested of the judge for a "reasonable time" to review before it is released.
Did he not?
 
As for the rest sgtbaker, I think that is a fair analysis, and a well thought out essay.

I don't agree with it, but I think it merits a star.
 
"...
Then we have the altercation. We have GZ's version; Trayvon approached him, hit him, climbed on top of him, and beat his head against the ground. We have one eye witness that can identify who was on top and who was on bottom, and who was hitting who."
...

I stopped right there.

No, we don't have a witness who says that.

Is there a reason we are discounting, the guy who came out, looked at them, told them he was calling the police, went inside to call the police, and then reported this all to the police as well as the media?
 
I get the impression that the "not enough evidence" side would not lose sleep or even feel like they've been wrong all this time, if tomorrow someone came along and presented a video of Zimmerman belly-crawling through the complex with gun in hand, and shooting Trayvon in cold blood." What we would finally have is what we've been asking for; evidence.

It is reasonable to argue who started the fight, though I've pretty much abandoned the neutral position that I adopted earlier in this thread. I want to see Zimmerman's account before I claim innocence, but I am firmly in the not guilty camp. It's very compelling to me that what's been intimated from Zimmerman's account of events so closely dovetails with the evidence released thus far.

As I said before, this is different from some nebulous claim of justification where the evidence can be interpreted in a variety of way and still match some vague claims. We have reason to beleive - unless SPD and the SAO are lying - that Zimmerman made a very specific set of claims that would only fit into a very narrow set of facts. Without benefit of knowing what witnesses said or what physical evidence was collected, Zimmerman's (presumed) claims have fit perfectly in with that evidence.

I do appreciate your nuanced approach and when the evidence proves me wrong, I'll be the very first to admit it. I think some (including me) that feel that the weight of evidence supports Zimmerman's version of events may get too adversarial in this discussion (though I do try to temper it with humor) becuase of how the early narrative was so wrong - even to the point of major media outlets manufacturing evidence - and accepted without question.
 
Serino wanted to file a Capias. Fact.

That he didn't want to piss off his boss who overruled him on that: speculation, but likely.

Serino wanted to file a Capias. Fact.

The SA made it clear it was many of Z's own statements that do him in. None of those we have seen yet. But we will.....soon. With hopes.

Something like 20 days (not counting exactly) till O'Mara must release discovery made available to him on or about the 1st.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And isn't it true that a lot of statements that he made do not make sense in terms of the injuries that he described. Did he not describe to the police that Mr. Martin had him on the ground and kept bashing his head on the concrete over and over and just physically beating him with his hands?

GILBREATH: He has said that, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And isn't it true that there is evidence that indicates that's not true?

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he also not state that at some point, he the defendant -- did he not state or claim that the victim in this case, Mr. Martin, put both hands one over his mouth and one over his nose so that he couldn't breathe?

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And all of sudden that's when he was able to get free and grab the gun. Or I'm sorry, Martin was grabbing for the gun, did he not claim that too at some point. climb that?

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But -- and I'm going to get into every little contradiction but wouldn't you agree that a lot of his statements can be contradicted by the evidence either witnesses or just based on what he says himself?
GILBREATH: Yes.​

Serino did file a Capias. It ended up at the dead letter office in the State Attorney Building.

I've already pointed out that the two "contradictions" that were presented at the bond hearing were bogus. A witness said he saw them shift from the grass to the concrete. The two figures, one chasing the other up the sidewalk towards the "T" turned into only one figure of indeterminate age, gender, or race.

The point made about TM putting his hands over Z's mouth and grabbing for the gun is, as it is quoted above, meaningless. Whatever they are talking about there, Serino did not think it was inculpatory.
 
Is there a reason we are discounting, the guy who came out, looked at them, told them he was calling the police, went inside to call the police, and then reported this all to the police as well as the media?
I can't say we can "discount" him per say, but his story changed.

He seems to be earnest in his desire to describe an accurate picture of what he saw, which, in this near hour-long interview he admitted, wasn't much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx6GS61UCxQ&feature=youtu.be

It's likely too long for most to want to take the time to hear (I posted it weeks ago) , but in it, he CLEARLY states he didn't see anyone hit (and certainly not "MMA style") he doesn't know who was screaming, didn't see who started it, did not see any punches or hitting, didn't see how it ended - and that he saw them for literally only a couple seconds in the very dark.

It's hard to judge sincerity from a recorded interview, but after nearly an hour of listening to him, he appears, to me anyway, to be sincere in his recollections, and notes he made assumptions at first.
 
There seems to be a lot of trouble understanding how speculation can be used as a tool. First off, speculation is not immunity from scrutiny. You can't just put forth a speculation and expect it to be unchallenged. Secondly, factual conclusions cannot be drawn from speculation. We can agree or disagree on likelyhoods and we can discuss how things are or aren't always what they seem but we cannot speculate x, add it to y and factually conclude Z.

So far, the way I see it and I don't think I am alone: We have George Zimmerman on the phone, reporting Trayvon's movements. GZ gets out of the truck, admits to following him on the phone, and then says okay when he is told that it was not necessary. From that point we can speculate that he is honest that he was looking at addresses and not following TM or that he was dishonest, but neither speculation holds much weight, in the grand scheme because we don't know.

Then we have the altercation. We have GZ's version; Trayvon approached him, hit him, climbed on top of him, and beat his head against the ground. We have one eye witness that can identify who was on top and who was on bottom, and who was hitting who. We have one eye witness that, from a distance, saw one person on top of another but cannot identify who was hitting who. We have another witness who did not see the altercation but claims that since she didn't hear a fight, the fight didn't happen. Finally we have a phone witness who heard an altercation begin, but can't say with any reasonable certainty, who started it. In all honesty, which witness is the most reliable? We can reasonably conclude that an altercation took place.

None of those witnesses can say who actually started the fight. That is where speculation comes in. "I think GZ started because x," "I think TM started it because X," or "I don't know who started it."

Then we have the moments after the shot was fired. Him having any wounds at all was certainly open to questioning, until the photos were released. The first videos, I can certainly understand the doubt. I can see how so many concluded that there was no major altercation because look at the police station videos. The mood quickly changed to, look, no wounds, GZ was lying. What broken nose? No marks on his face! Some people remained a little questionable, at this point. "Look, those are not exactly high quality videos so details are most definitely getting scrubed out." Wouldn't you know it, weeks later pictures of the back of GZ's head, moments after the fight emerge and there it was, blood dripping down the back of his head from wounds that were not visible in the low quality video. Police pictures, that everyone was so sure were never taken because they didn't get released, show a cut on his nose and some scratches on his face.

Now we have some room for more speculation. We don't know exactly what GZ's sworn statements claim but we have bits and pieces that suggest he was punched in the face, TM climbed on top of him, hit his head against the ground, and attempted to cover his mouth. You can't really tell from the pictures, if that's dried blood or scratches next to his beard and over by his ears, but if they are, that would be wounds consistent with the struggle he allegedly described. That is speculation. He has wounds on his nose that are consistent with a punch to the nose and wounds on the back of his head that are consistent with getting you head hit on a hard surface. So if X is true (x being the specific claimes of the assault) then y is true (Y being Trayvon Martin was assaulting Zimmerman). Room for debate is the severity of the assault and if the wounds are consistent. What is not open to debate, anymore, are the existence of wounds.

So evidence for GZ is corroborating eyewitness accounts; wounds that could be consistent the the assault we think he claimed, took place (very shakey at this point but can be clarified and moved accordingly, with the release of his statements), gunshot forensics consistent with his claim, according to the police; grass on the back of his clothes consistent with his claim, an eyewitness who claims he saw GZ on the bottom, calling for help, and the timeline starting from a rough guestimate of when the actual altercation started to the gunshot consistent with GZ's alleged story.

Problematic for either side is the timeline between when the police call ended and the beginning of the altercation, which, with the release of his statements can be clarified as either supporting his story or negating his story. At this point it's only useful in saying we have unanswered questions.

Now we have the evidence against Zimmerman. Two experts, using two different techniques claiming that it was not Zimmerman's voice. The first expert, I don't know there has been room for doubt. The second expert sounds like a bit of a quack. Then we have the FBI's technique that didn't appear to draw any reliable conclusion. There is room for debate.

We have the DA's claim that GZ's stories were inconsistent. Because we've seen none of the stories, I choose to withhold judgement. That doesn't mean I feel that the DA is lying or that the evidence is insufficient. I am saying that I would like to see the inconsistencies myself, before I decide if there is enough of a variation to call GZ a liar or if the variations are simple and honest variations that occur as time passes between the event and recollection of the event. Telling me that the prosecutor says so, so it must be true has been bunked by prosecutors in the past, going forward with cases on really bad evidence. That does not nullify the evidence in this case, it just makes me reluctant to jump on that bandwagon.

We have the girlfriend. I can't discount her story, completely, because of the events surrounding the release of her story, for the same reason I can't discount GZ's statements because of the circumstances around his story. Both need to be looked at with more scrutiny.

If I am missing evidence, feel free to add it on and I am more than willing to discuss. However, at this point, if I were sitting in a jury box, I don't know if I would even be able to vote yes on manslaughter, forget about Murder 2. My position is not solid. I've made no claims of innocence, I just feel that at this point there is not enough to vote guilty. If you choose to read that as pro Zimmerman, it is a fault in your logic, not mine.
Great post, thanks for bringing some fun back to the thread. I'll nitpick with only one part, which I extracted from the above post:

Now, I don't not like this "proZimmerman/anti Zimmerman" nonesense. If it can be neatly divided into two sides (which I feel is more of a sliding scale) it is the "guilty/not enough evidence" sides.
Ideally that's how it should work but I'll point out that a good number of people on the "pro GZ" side have said that a manslaughter charge might be appropriate. So I'd say that in addition to the sides you mention above, the other breakdown that could be made is the "evidence based" side, and the "emotional non-rational" side, neither of which is mutually exclusive to either of the sides you mention above.
 
There was one thing John said in that above interview I referenced, that has me scratching my head.

Something he said at about the 33:00 - 34:00 minute mark here...

He describes the position TM's body was in when he saw it immediately after it happened was (paraphrase) "like a crime-scene chalk outline."

(and draws it out for two minutes)

I assume like this:
chalk_icon1447.jpg


One hand up, other down, as if 'swimming.'

You can hear it here (fast up to about the 33 minute mark)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx6GS61UCxQ&feature=youtu.be

Yet police found TM with his hands under him. Hmmm.
 
Serino did file a Capias. It ended up at the dead letter office in the State Attorney Building.

I've already pointed out that the two "contradictions" that were presented at the bond hearing were bogus. A witness said he saw them shift from the grass to the concrete. The two figures, one chasing the other up the sidewalk towards the "T" turned into only one figure of indeterminate age, gender, or race.

The point made about TM putting his hands over Z's mouth and grabbing for the gun is, as it is quoted above, meaningless. Whatever they are talking about there, Serino did not think it was inculpatory.
I can't WAIT to see the doc dump with GZ's statements and his video reenactment!

Oh yessirree bob, won't THAT be interesting!
 
I can't say we can "discount" him per say, but his story changed.

He seems to be earnest in his desire to describe an accurate picture of what he saw, which, in this near hour-long interview he admitted, wasn't much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx6GS61UCxQ&feature=youtu.be

It's likely too long for most to want to take the time to hear (I posted it weeks ago) , but in it, he CLEARLY states he didn't see anyone hit (and certainly not "MMA style") he doesn't know who was screaming, didn't see who started it, did not see any punches or hitting, didn't see how it ended - and that he saw them for literally only a couple seconds in the very dark.

It's hard to judge sincerity from a recorded interview, but after nearly an hour of listening to him, he appears, to me anyway, to be sincere in his recollections, and notes he made assumptions at first.

I do believe Bernie convinced him he hadn't actually seen Z's lips moving, because it was too dark. But, John still says he assumed the guy on the bottom was the one screaming while viewing the fight, and that is almost as good for a jury. I'm assuming if he takes the stand, O'Mara will bring that out when questioning him about his previous statements.

And, Bernie is still going to have to face the problem of convincing any group of people, let alone a jury, that in this fight, the guy on the top, the one who suffered no injuries until he was shot, was the one screaming, and the guy on the bottom, the one who actually had injuries, was just absorbing those injuries silently.
 
I can't WAIT to see the doc dump with GZ's statements and his video reenactment!

Oh yessirree bob, won't THAT be interesting!

Yes it will. I'm looking forward to find out the movements of Z's truck in relation to where TM was, and where it was actually parked.

And how he says the fight went down, of course.
 
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