Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[crimresearch]

That makes no sense to me.... I don't see how GZ can claim self-defense when he started the fight.

Since the laws, the Supreme Court rulings, and careful explanations on self defense have been posted here dozens upon dozens of times, could you be specific as to what you disagree with?

 

[GWCarver]

So this is what Dershowitz has been talking about... Over at our beloved Treehouse, John Galt says:

"Florida has adopted the ABA Standards. What is a prosecutor required to disclose in support of an information?
Note: 3-3.6(b) No prosecutor should knowingly fail to disclose to the grand jury evidence which tends to negate guilt or mitigate the offense.” Note that this standard is incorporated by reference with respect to charges brought without a grand jury, via filing of an information.

The following standard and the other two it references can be found at the url below:

Standard 3-3.7 Quality and Scope of Evidence for Information

Where the prosecutor is empowered to charge by information, the prosecutor’s decisions should be governed by the principles embodied in Standards 3-3.6 and 3-3.9, where applicable.

http://www.americanbar.org/publicat...archive/crimjust_standards_pfunc_blk.html#3.1

 

[Noztradamus]

Being followed at a distance = understandable to be in fear of your life and you are justified in launching a pre-emptive strike

Yeah, following someone at night=perfectly reasonable.

What about when it's the same guy who previously drove past you in his truck, did a bootlegger ahead of you, and sat there like a potted palm with his headlights shining on you?

 

[Dan O.]

What about when it's the same guy who previously drove past you in his truck, did a bootlegger ahead of you, and sat there like a potted palm with his headlights shining on you?

From the concurrence in George and DeeDee's statements, I'm leaning towards believing that George was traveling west on Twin Tree Lane when he spotted Trayvon in the vicinity of the mailboxes. He then pulled over the curb and parked his truck near the corner and called the police. Google gives this path an an alternative to taking Retreat View Circle when exiting the neighborhood from George's house.

This position puts George's truck in the way of the easiest / shortest path home for Trayvon. It is thus necessary for Trayvon to walk 3/4ths of a circle around George's truck if he is to stay on the dryer road and not cut across the wet grass.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

These are pictures of 'pummeled' people and broken noses:
pummeled face
pummeled face
pummeled face
pummeled face

broken noses


This is GZ's injury image after the incident:

What injury?

 

[This is The End]

<snip>

Even if GZ started the fight, and chased TM around the compound 11 times, and yelled angrily at TM for 5 minutes, if TM got GZ on the ground at the end, and was beating the crap out of him, GZ can still shoot TM in self defense.

<snip>

Are you sure about that?

Why do I remember something about "unless while committing a felony"?

------------

GZ said he was following TM. There's really no doubt that GZ got out of his vehicle and started to walk in the direction that TM had run. And there's really no doubt that GZ didn't go very far before saying "Okay".

Bolding mine.

Are you saying that you think that it does not sound like Z was running in the not911 call? Really??

-----------------

10? I see 2 on the back of his head and a scratch on his nose. What other injuries do you see?

The bond hearing where GZ allowed the court to be mislead provides strong evidence that GZ suffered brain damage from all the blows to his head.

 

[Amazer]

Since the laws, the Supreme Court rulings, and careful explanations on self defense have been posted here dozens upon dozens of times, could you be specific as to what you disagree with?

I understand that your laws might allow claiming self-defense even if the person doing so has initiated the fight.

To me personally that just seems wrong.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

These are pictures of 'pummeled' people and broken noses:
pummeled face
pummeled face
pummeled face
pummeled face

broken noses


This is GZ's injury image after the incident:

What injury?

You do realize that your link shows a several year old photo of GZ that has nothing whatsoever to do with this case, right?

 

[Noztradamus]

From the concurrence in George and DeeDee's statements, I'm leaning towards believing that George was traveling west on Twin Tree Lane when he spotted Trayvon in the vicinity of the mailboxes. He then pulled over the curb and parked his truck near the corner and called the police. Google gives this path an an alternative to taking Retreat View Circle when exiting the neighborhood from George's house.

~~~.

It's not the most convenient route (two extra right angle turns), and going that way requires George to bring his car to a stop and get on the phone to not911 a mere moment after first spotting Martin.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You do realize that your link shows a several year old photo of GZ that has nothing whatsoever to do with this case, right?

I thought the orange was a mug shot. Feel free to post his post 'injury' pic. I know it doesn't show anything different. I'm having trouble with Google Chrome at the moment, something about the popup blocker is turning pages into white outs.

Bottom line: GZ's injuries are not consistent with being pummeled.

 

[Dan O.]

It's not the most convenient route (two extra right angle turns), and going that way requires George to bring his car to a stop and get on the phone to not911 a mere moment after first spotting Martin.

As I said, it was the alternate path. As for the mere moments after first spotting Martin, there is no timestamp that we've seen for how long George waited before making the call. The evidence should exist though, this should all be in view of the gate cameras at the entrance.

 

[Dan O.]

I thought the orange was a mug shot. Feel free to post his post 'injury' pic. I know it doesn't show anything different. I'm having trouble with Google Chrome at the moment, something about the popup blocker is turning pages into white outs.

Bottom line: GZ's injuries are not consistent with being pummeled.

See if this page is any better: http://abcnews.go.com/US/t/slideshow/george-zimmerman-leaves-jail-16126443

 

[Noztradamus]

As I said, it was the alternate path. As for the mere moments after first spotting Martin, there is no timestamp that we've seen for how long George waited before making the call. The evidence should exist though, this should all be in view of the gate cameras at the entrance.

He may have sat there like a potted palm for several minutes watching Martin walking around, looking about, before deciding to call not911, but he would have to have stopped immediately on seeing him (even before he was aware Martin was suspiciously black)

 

[Dan O.]

He may have sat there like a potted palm for several minutes watching Martin walking around, looking about, before deciding to call not911, but he would have to have stopped immediately on seeing him (even before he was aware Martin was suspiciously black)

George would have a view of the mailboxes form before he made the previous turn. Of course, it was getting dark. But there may also be some local lighting that would highlight Trayvon. It's also quite likely that George would take the scenic route to be better able to watch the neighborhood.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I'm going to guess that 90% of the people here upset that GZs injuries "weren't serious enough, are being hypocrites, and if attacked by a stranger, being punched and having their head slammed into the ground, screaming for help, in utter fear and terror, would use deadly force to defend themselves in similar circumstances.

Now people can respond that "well we don't believe that TM attacked GZ", and that's fine, but irrelevant to my point if you're making the argument that "GZ was not injured serious enough to shoot".

 

[Giordano]

I don't wish to "beam down" into the current discussion (which has become quite imaginative at times), but I am hoping for a clarification of a point that has left me confused for weeks:

Why, under Florida law, couldn't Trayvon Martin claim "Stand your ground" himself, thus justifying lethal force against GZ? If TM was being following by a stranger (to him) with a gun, and he reasonably felt in danger of his life, would he not under "Stand your ground" have a right to attack, and even kill GZ, by whatever means necessary? Why do these discussions so often focus on only GZ's right to invoke this principle- is there some point in the law that creates this asymmetry?

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

They were both 'standing their ground'. A north going zax and a south going zax, but one zax had a gun. A zax with a gun is not much fun. When a zax has a gun, you'd better run.

Apologies to Dr Seuss...

 

[crimresearch]

I thought the orange was a mug shot. Feel free to post his post 'injury' pic. I know it doesn't show anything different. I'm having trouble with Google Chrome at the moment, something about the popup blocker is turning pages into white outs.

Bottom line: GZ's injuries are not consistent with being pummeled.

The pictures of his actual injuries have been posted here over and over, and your 'pop up blocker' nonsense is a farcical smokescreen.
You've pulled this 'I can't see that, so that proves it doesn't exist' gambit so many times, it can't be believed.


The notion that Zimmerman was uninjured and by extension that the paramedics on the scene, the police, and his MD the next day, are all lying, is simply irrational refusal to stop believing in falsehoods.

And posting pictures of people far more severely injured is the best you've got for 'proof' of that wild conspiracy theory?

You've got nothing either correct, or useful.

 

[LTC8K6]

I don't wish to "beam down" into the current discussion (which has become quite imaginative at times), but I am hoping for a clarification of a point that has left me confused for weeks:

Why, under Florida law, couldn't Trayvon Martin claim "Stand your ground" himself, thus justifying lethal force against GZ? If TM was being following by a stranger (to him) with a gun, and he reasonably felt in danger of his life, would he not under "Stand your ground" have a right to attack, and even kill GZ, by whatever means necessary? Why do these discussions so often focus on only GZ's right to invoke this principle- is there some point in the law that creates this asymmetry?

It depends on which version of events you use.

You can use versions that allow either side to claim SYG or self defesne.

I think that since GZ appears to have been in a fight, and TM does not, it makes GZ's claim of SYG slightly more likely.

We don't know what actually happened, and we may never know for sure.

Plus, we are missing one big piece of the puzzle, and that is GZ's statements of what happened.

Right now, we are all going on what we've been given, and the various possible interpretations of all of that.

I am strongly biased towards innocent unless and until proven guilty. So I am biased towards GZ.

I like defense attorney Jeralyn Merritt's take on the case and the warrant.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/6/6/63420/28270

 

[crimresearch]

I don't wish to "beam down" into the current discussion (which has become quite imaginative at times), but I am hoping for a clarification of a point that has left me confused for weeks:

Why, under Florida law, couldn't Trayvon Martin claim "Stand your ground" himself, thus justifying lethal force against GZ? If TM was being following by a stranger (to him) with a gun, and he reasonably felt in danger of his life, would he not under "Stand your ground" have a right to attack, and even kill GZ, by whatever means necessary? Why do these discussions so often focus on only GZ's right to invoke this principle- is there some point in the law that creates this asymmetry?

Stand your ground has nothing to do with that aspect of it.

There is zero hard evidence that Zimmerman was in the commission of one of the specificed felonies (rape, arson, etc.) that would have allowed Martin to use deadly force.

There is zero hard evidence that Martin had any idea that Zimmerman had a gun when he decided to use force.

And it takes a lot to turn 'being followed by a Hispanic guy' into 'reasonable fear for your life'.

The moment at which either of them would have been justified legally in using deadly force was probably the same moment that Martin discovered/grabbed for the gun.
And we only have Zimmerman's version of the story after that.