Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Unabogie]

It's not a media report, it's an article/essay/whatever by Alan Dershowtiz.



I highlighted the parts about the media source in your claim. Seems like an important aspect. Why is it an aspect at all when the primary source is Alan Dershowitz ? Please explain.



So, you are not calling Dershowtiz a liar, you just don't believe what he says ? Or, the person who told Dershowitz that this all happened is the liar, because they thought lying to him would advance their career. Hmm. Lots of theories to consider.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...lan-dershowitz-murder-charge-sanford-shooting

Asked about the Newsmax column today, a Corey spokeswoman said "we're not going to comment about that."

Dershowitz's post doesn't say when exactly Corey's call occurred. A Harvard Law School spokeswoman didn't immediately return a call seeking comment.

So, a non-denial. If it was all horrendous lies, why not deny it ?

Wait, so no comment from any of the sources means it's true?

I'm also curious why Dershowitz or the editors at NewsMax also didn't try and contact Corey or Harvard to verify that this call took place before making the accusation? Wouldn't a normal news organization do so?

Ah, but we're talking about NewsMax as if it's a real news org.

So in this case, we should default to believing that Corey ranted for 40 minutes to a stranger about suing Harvard until such time as she and Harvard take the time to deny the substance of the call or that the call took place?

I'll eagerly await this standard for other events in this case, like George defrauding the court. After all, no one here suggested waiting for George to have the opportunity to defend himself, right?

 

[Cylinder]

So you don't mind the idea you can kill anyone who hits you?

That wasn't really the claim, was it? Why do you hate puppies?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I know, right ?

Are you claiming GZ was not following TM on foot, huffing and puffing when the dispatch operator told him, "we don't need you to do that"?

 

[LTC8K6]

So you don't mind the idea you can kill anyone who hits you? And that includes someone who hits you after you threatened them?

I didn't write the law or the jury instructions, but I can read them.

I can almost understand them, even.

As far as I am able to tell, that's what both the law and the instructions said at the time of this incident.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That wasn't really the claim, was it? Why do you hate puppies?

How do you interpret the sentence I quoted?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Are you claiming GZ was not following TM on foot, huffing and puffing when the dispatch operator told him, "we don't need you to do that"?

That wasn't really the claim, was it? Why do you hate puppies?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf

Officer Smith:
Zimmermnn nppeared to hAve a broken and bloody nose and swelling of his face

Officer Ayala:
Zimmerman was also bleeding from his nose and the back of his head

Officer Serino:
On 3/9/20121 received a fax f rom Altamonte Family Practice, which contained the medical records identifying the Injur ies sustained by Zimmerman on the evening of 2/2612012. Said medical reoords l ist Zimmerman's
injur ies as;
1. Open wound of scalp, wi thout mention of complication
2. Nasal bones, closed fractUre 3. Assaul t by other specI f ied means

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin20120517,0,7498893.story

If TM slugged GZ one time he could have given him a bloody nose. If GZ fell over backward from that single punch he could have gotten those head scrapes.

There is no evidence of any pummeling. Have you seen someone who was pummeled? The pictures of GZ and his injuries are not consistent with being pummeled repeatedly.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

So you don't mind the idea you can kill anyone who hits you?

Boy, you pegged it Ms. Strawman, that's what we all like, the idea that we can kill anyone who hits us. Hell ya, yeeha!

And that includes someone who hits you after you threatened them?

Damn straight! I wanna be able to threaten people, scare them into hitting me, and then shoot them, yeeha!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That wasn't really the claim, was it? Why do you hate puppies?

Are you saying I don't know what my own post said?

 

[johnny karate]

It's not a media report, it's an article/essay/whatever by Alan Dershowtiz.

... printed in a media outlet, thus making it a media report. Editorials and opinion pieces are still part of the media in which they appear.

I highlighted the parts about the media source in your claim. Seems like an important aspect. Why is it an aspect at all when the primary source is Alan Dershowitz ? Please explain.

Newsmax is a hack conservative site. That Dersohowitz didn't print his lurid tale of secondhand gossip in a more reputable media outlet speaks volumes. So does the fact that no major media outlest appear to be picking up on the story.

So, you are not calling Dershowtiz a liar, you just don't believe what he says ? Or, the person who told Dershowitz that this all happened is the liar, because they thought lying to him would advance their career. Hmm. Lots of theories to consider.

And what's great is that I don't have to offer any of them. I'm not the one making a claim in this situation. Dershowitz is. If he makes a claim without offering evidence, I'm not obligated to believe it.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...lan-dershowitz-murder-charge-sanford-shooting

Asked about the Newsmax column today, a Corey spokeswoman said "we're not going to comment about that."

Dershowitz's post doesn't say when exactly Corey's call occurred. A Harvard Law School spokeswoman didn't immediately return a call seeking comment.

So, a non-denial. If it was all horrendous lies, why not deny it ?

Where did I say it was all horrendous lies? I merely said it was a unsubstatiated secondhand report. And it is. If that's good enough for you, that's super. You go with that. I'll wait until actual evidence is presented.

 

[LTC8K6]

Are you claiming GZ was not following TM on foot, huffing and puffing when the dispatch operator told him, "we don't need you to do that"?

GZ said he was following TM. There's really no doubt that GZ got out of his vehicle and started to walk in the direction that TM had run. And there's really no doubt that GZ didn't go very far before saying "Okay".

Since TM ran, at that point, GZ could not have been anywhere near TM.

GZ may have intended to follow TM, but he did not actually do so, imo.

 

[Cylinder]

How do you interpret the sentence I quoted?

Well, I'm interpreting it to mean that the documented injuries and their circumstances are pretty clearly within reasonable fear territory. For instance, in the same situation, LEO would employ lethal force. The injuries Zimmerman sustained in the attack would not fall under the just hit catagory. Of course, claims of justification are evaluated under the totality of the circumstance, so there are instances where "just hit" would, IMO, satisfy a reasonable fear standard.

 

[johnny karate]

There is no evidence of any pummeling. Have you seen someone who was pummeled? The pictures of GZ and his injuries are not consistent with being pummeled repeatedly.

Nor are the injuries (or absence thereof) on Martin's hands.

 

[johnny karate]

I'm also curious why Dershowitz or the editors at NewsMax also didn't try and contact Corey or Harvard to verify that this call took place before making the accusation? Wouldn't a normal news organization do so?

That's a really good question.

 

[Rare Truth]

The SFD report in the big pdf file has Zimmerman talking to Brandy...

Pt states etc.
Pt denies etc.

Yes, Brandy was the lead Paramedic. He attended to Z and wrote the report.

He stated clearly he made no statements about how it happened and certainly did not hear what the police officer said he overheard.

The few remarks were simply medical related inquiries.

You can hear Brandy's interview here: BrandyFDLE03272012.wav

ORourke was an assistant and he also said he had no recollection of Z making any statements about how it happened :ORourkeFDLE03242012.wav

Wendy Livingston was also assisting. She said she cleaned up the dried blood and she likewise did not hear any statement outside of a few medical replies and comments.
LivingstonFDLE03242012.wav

Not one of the medical attendants who were there heard what Officer Smith "overheard" so clearly - an (exculpatory) comment so important he thought to include in the police report.
Somehow the other people at the scene (one or two neighbors, one at least we know who took the picture) were not important to mention were there at his arrival at the scene -- but darn it -- it was pretty important that he included:
"While the SFD was attending to Zimmerman, I over heard him state, "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me."

In Quotes!

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Are you saying I don't know what my own post said?

No, I am saying you are just generally confused.

Do you see the highlighted part below:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger
That's far fetched given GZ was on the phone to 911 until after he got out of his SUV.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger
It is amazing that sometimes in the face of quotes and lots of evidence people still assert falsehoods.

I know, right ?

That highlighted part is a falsehood in the face of quotes and lots of evidence. Do you see the irony yet ?

PS: same thing goes for the 'alleged' broken nose. That is also a falsehood in the face of quotes and lots of evidence.

 

[Amazer]

Even if GZ started the fight, and chased TM around the compound 11 times, and yelled angrily at TM for 5 minutes, if TM got GZ on the ground at the end, and was beating the crap out of him, GZ can still shoot TM in self defense. There would still be a good chance that GZ would serve no jail time.

That makes no sense to me.... I don't see how GZ can claim self-defense when he started the fight.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

... printed in a media outlet, thus making it a media report. Editorials and opinion pieces are still part of the media in which they appear.

Now who is splitting hairs ?

Newsmax is a hack conservative site. That Dersohowitz didn't print his lurid tale of secondhand gossip in a more reputable media outlet speaks volumes.

What are the volumes it speaks ? It's an opinion piece by Dershowitz that contains some claims about AC.

So does the fact that no major media outlest appear to be picking up on the story.
And what's great is that I don't have to offer any of them. I'm not the one making a claim in this situation. Dershowitz is. If he makes a claim without offering evidence, I'm not obligated to believe it.

No one said you were. My original question was what does newsmax have to do with it still remains basically unanswered.

Where did I say it was all horrendous lies? I merely said it was a unsubstatiated secondhand report. And it is. If that's good enough for you, that's super. You go with that. I'll wait until actual evidence is presented.

What evidence will you be waiting for ? AC phone records ?

 

[johnny karate]

That makes no sense to me.... I don't see how GZ can claim self-defense when he started the fight.

He could if Martin was "beating the crap out of him" to the point that Zimmerman had reasonable fear for his life or sustaining great bodily harm.

Of course there is no evidence that Martin was "beating the crap out of him", or even hit him more than one time. Unless one were so inclined as to believe the word of proven liar.

 

[LTC8K6]

That makes no sense to me.... I don't see how GZ can claim self-defense when he started the fight.

Well, it's the law in most states.

Fights aren't started to kill the other guy most of the time.

They can degenerate into that, though.

I might sucker punch you to teach you a lesson not to bother me, we might do a little hand to hand combat, and then you might gain the upper hand and get me on the ground. This is where most such fights end. One person has won, and they quit and the fight is over.

However, you might be very angry with me and continue the fight. You might start kicking me in the head and chest while I am down, which is now threatening my life.

So, I started the fight, but I had no intentions of killing you, but you carried the fight much further after that point, and made it life threatening to me.