Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[crimresearch]

I don't think GZ necessarily pulled the trigger 'on purpose'. The scenario I find most likely was he negligently followed TM and negligently pulled out his gun because a guy carrying a gun in a waist holster who follows suspicious people and may be a cop wannabe would likely pull the gun out. I think he could have shot without thinking or accidentally because that's what happens when you pull a gun out.

On TM's side it seems most likely to me that he was not only screaming but also struggling to get away. While there was one witness who claimed he saw the guy in the red shirt on the bottom, the other witnesses said it was too dark to clearly see. Colors are harder to see in the dark than shapes, while witnesses are known to create false memories and seeing Zimmerman in the red shirt later is not an unusual event to create a false memory the red shirt was seen earlier.

So let's say there is equivocal evidence of who was on top. GZ outweighed TM, TM may have been in better shape. At some point GZ hit the back of his head. TM may have hit GZ once. The scrape on the knuckle in the autopsy report certainly seems minor and not consistent with repeated blows. Neither is GZ's supposed broken nose and black eyes which are not visible in the photos.

I've seen people who were pummeled. Their face swells up. Their eyes swell shut. GZ's injuries and TM's autopsy are consistent with a single punch or even GZ falling back. Those are not injuries consistent with a pummeling. They just aren't.

And I'm still convinced the evidence shows GZ lied saying he was returning to his vehicle. The location of the body and the girlfriend on the phone's testimony along with the timing of the phone call are not consistent with that scenario.

And now we have more evidence GZ is all about telling self serving lies about this case.

TM was screaming and struggling. If he was on the bottom and GZ had the gun out, you scream and struggle. It's reflexive. TM could have struggled and screamed for a short period before the gun went off.

So guns accidentally shoot themselves just by being pulled out of a holster? And you are still denying the photographs of the blood, and the injuries, and the medical reports? This is of course after your claim that the FBI experts were wrong, and you were right about the magic audio evidence.

And of course, we have your word that the judge ruled that Zimmerman was lying about the passports.

It is amazing that sometimes in the face of facts and lots of evidence people still assert falsehoods.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

[...]
So let's say there is equivocal evidence of who was on top. GZ outweighed TM, TM may have been in better shape. At some point GZ hit the back of his head. TM may have hit GZ once. The scrape on the knuckle in the autopsy report certainly seems minor and not consistent with repeated blows. Neither is GZ's supposed broken nose and black eyes which are not visible in the photos.
[...]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger
It is amazing that sometimes in the face of quotes and lots of evidence people still assert falsehoods.

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf

Officer Smith:
Zimmermnn nppeared to hAve a broken and bloody nose and swelling of his face

Officer Ayala:
Zimmerman was also bleeding from his nose and the back of his head

Officer Serino:
On 3/9/20121 received a fax f rom Altamonte Family Practice, which contained the medical records identifying the Injur ies sustained by Zimmerman on the evening of 2/2612012. Said medical reoords l ist Zimmerman's
injur ies as;
1. Open wound of scalp, wi thout mention of complication
2. Nasal bones, closed fractUre 3. Assaul t by other specI f ied means

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin20120517,0,7498893.story

One responder said there was a “laceration at least an inch by a half-inch wide.”
“There were two lacerations at the back of his head, one deeper than the other,” another responder said during her interview. “We cleaned him up and got them to stop bleeding.”
She said Zimmerman complained of feeling dizzy at one point and seemed impaired. Both responders said they thought police would take Zimmerman to a hospital for stitches to his head.

 

[crimresearch]

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Zimmerman-Trayvon-Angela-Corey/2012/06/05/id/441305



Interesting stuff in there.

I'm sure our resident cluster of experts will have no trouble explaining how Derschowitz 'simply doesn't understand the law' as well as they do...

 

[crimresearch]

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf

Officer Smith:
Zimmermnn nppeared to hAve a broken and bloody nose and swelling of his face

Officer Ayala:
Zimmerman was also bleeding from his nose and the back of his head

Officer Serino:
On 3/9/20121 received a fax f rom Altamonte Family Practice, which contained the medical records identifying the Injur ies sustained by Zimmerman on the evening of 2/2612012. Said medical reoords l ist Zimmerman's
injur ies as;
1. Open wound of scalp, wi thout mention of complication
2. Nasal bones, closed fractUre 3. Assaul t by other specI f ied means

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin20120517,0,7498893.story

Not to mention:

http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-201_162-10012334-2.html?tag=page;next

And of course, we've beeen assured by the same remote viewing medical expert that the blood and injuries just don't exist.

Ah well, people are going to believe what they need to believe.

 

[Dan O.]

Not to mention:

You've not mentioned the recommendation that George see a shrink.

 

[GWCarver]

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Zimmerman-Trayvon-Angela-Corey/2012/06/05/id/441305



Interesting stuff in there.

I'll say. Even though we have all read the probable cause affidavit, I still can't believe a prosecutor anywhere in America could engage in this behavior attributed to Cory and described by Dershowitz in the article:

"She insisted that she is entitled to submit what, in effect, were half truths in an affidavit of probable cause, so long as she subsequently provides the defense with exculpatory evidence."

 

[Dcdrac]

I don't think GZ necessarily pulled the trigger 'on purpose'. The scenario I find most likely was he negligently followed TM and negligently pulled out his gun because a guy carrying a gun in a waist holster who follows suspicious people and may be a cop wannabe would likely pull the gun out. I think he could have shot without thinking or accidentally because that's what happens when you pull a gun out.

On TM's side it seems most likely to me that he was not only screaming but also struggling to get away. While there was one witness who claimed he saw the guy in the red shirt on the bottom, the other witnesses said it was too dark to clearly see. Colors are harder to see in the dark than shapes, while witnesses are known to create false memories and seeing Zimmerman in the red shirt later is not an unusual event to create a false memory the red shirt was seen earlier.

So let's say there is equivocal evidence of who was on top. GZ outweighed TM, TM may have been in better shape. At some point GZ hit the back of his head. TM may have hit GZ once. The scrape on the knuckle in the autopsy report certainly seems minor and not consistent with repeated blows. Neither is GZ's supposed broken nose and black eyes which are not visible in the photos.

I've seen people who were pummeled. Their face swells up. Their eyes swell shut. GZ's injuries and TM's autopsy are consistent with a single punch or even GZ falling back. Those are not injuries consistent with a pummeling. They just aren't.

And I'm still convinced the evidence shows GZ lied saying he was returning to his vehicle. The location of the body and the girlfriend on the phone's testimony along with the timing of the phone call are not consistent with that scenario.

And now we have more evidence GZ is all about telling self serving lies about this case.

TM was screaming and struggling. If he was on the bottom and GZ had the gun out, you scream and struggle. It's reflexive. TM could have struggled and screamed for a short period before the gun went off.

This is exactly how I feel about the case GZ wannabe cop loose cannon, not a murderer just reckless

 

[crimresearch]

You've not mentioned the recommendation that George see a shrink.

Oh I think somewhere when this came up, it was pointed out that any doctor who had a patient with head injuries, and who had just killed a person, would give that recommendation.

But keep picking those cherries, and I'm sure you'll have enough for a pie one day.

 

[LTC8K6]

I'll say. Even though we have all read the probable cause affidavit, I still can't believe a prosecutor anywhere in America could engage in this behavior attributed to Cory and described by Dershowitz in the article:

"She insisted that she is entitled to submit what, in effect, were half truths in an affidavit of probable cause, so long as she subsequently provides the defense with exculpatory evidence."

It's very Nifongish if true.

It's depressing to think of, and I am already depressed at the loss of a friend.

I need to get out of my funk.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

This is exactly how I feel about the case GZ wannabe cop loose cannon, not a murderer just reckless

Which is exactly why so many people can't think rationally about this case. You're starting with a premise and interpreting everything to fit that premise. The moment you decided that GZ is a "wannabe cop loose canon" you eliminated any chance of ever analyzing the evidence rationally. And the same applies to those who think TM is a "wannabe thug gangsta". We don't know either of these people and can't begin to know them, or what what happening in their heads that night, from reading a few Twitter posts, or listening to a 911 call. In this case those things can only give us the tiniest clues, nothing more.

I just continue to be amazed that so many people in this thread (on both sides) think they know who these two people are, know their motives, know their emotions. All based on some very small snippets in the media.

 

[Unabogie]

I'll say. Even though we have all read the probable cause affidavit, I still can't believe a prosecutor anywhere in America could engage in this behavior attributed to Cory and described by Dershowitz in the article:

"She insisted that she is entitled to submit what, in effect, were half truths in an affidavit of probable cause, so long as she subsequently provides the defense with exculpatory evidence."

Which is why I don't buy that she called Harvard and threatened to sue the school over what Deschowitz said on Fox. That seems completely far fetched to me.

He provides no evidence of this claim, or even direct quotes, but then moves gracefully into using weasel words like "in effect".

Who in the "Office of Communications"? A staffer? The person in charge? Why would she then rant for 40 minutes instead of sending the threat on an official letter?

That sounds like a fabrication.

 

[Cylinder]

Who in the "Office of Communications"? A staffer? The person in charge?

Harvard Office of Communications

Can you tell why the complaint was forwarded there?

 

[Rare Truth]

And how honest is it to run away when you were proven wrong, and then come back with out of context snippets and fabrications weeks later?

...

And there he goes again, making false accusations with nothing to back him up.

At least I showed exactly where you were wrong. What your posts display is just spittle with no backup.

People are free to click the little arrow button after the poster's comment and see for themselves what was said.

The fact is you went on and on, asserting something I never said (that I had seen the medical report, that I said he had *no* injuries, that he had not received treatment) and then insisted the police report never said the EMS cleared Z.

That's a fack, jack.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8274462#post8274462

Originally Posted by johnny karate
...
Did you know that the overwhelming majority of people don't die from minor bumps on the head with no visible injuries?
=============================


Originally Posted by Rare Truth
Especially when they get cleared by Emergency Medical professionals in a matter of minutes before they are due to head into police interrogation and possible night in a jail cell.
=============================


Originally Posted by crimresearch
And you read the report stating that the EMS professionals cleared Zimmerman exactly where?
=============================
Originally Posted by Rare Truth
Duh. You didn't read the police report?? Wow. That's like square One.
.
I posted this last week, for those paragraph challenged, and I could have sworn you were part of the conversation then, but no matter.

Here, again. The picture version of the police report for those that didn't bother to read it.

=============================
Originally Posted by crimresearch
The police report said no such thing. It specifically said that he was given first aid, not that he was cleared.
And you never read any Emergency Medical professional's report, you simply made that up. This is as irrelevant as the 'tactical flashlight' verbage.

Do you have anything that is either correct or useful?

<Bolded by me>

OOps.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/who007/TMCleared-1-1-1.jpg

=============================
Originally Posted by crimresearch
Oops indeed... The fact is that you were simply making it up when you pretended to have seen an 'Emergency Medical' report saying that Zimmerman was simply 'cleared' without treatment.

The police report that you are trying to pass of as a medical document confirms that Zimmerman was in fact treated first, and not just cleared.

This nonsense was debunked thousands of posts ago, and none of your spin, denial, or straw is going to change that.

You've got nothing.
=============================
Originally Posted by Rare Truth
Perhaps reading my posts might clear it up for you. I never said I had seen the EMS report, in fact, just a few posts ago, I said none of us had.

I *did* say the police report EMS stated it cleared Zimmerman, and shazam! It did.

There's no crawfishing back for you from THIS erroneous comment made by you:
Originally Posted by crimresearch The police report said no such thing. It specifically said that he was given first aid, not that he was cleared. ...
Me: Suck it up and admit you were wrong. No big deal. It happens.
=============================
=============================

Sequentially presented, for your pleasure.
No need to reply. Here, the readers will be the judge.

 

[Unabogie]

Harvard Office of Communications

Can you tell why the complaint was forwarded there?

What complaint? Even taking Dershowitz at his word, this was nothing more than a phone rant. If Corey was intent upon Harvard doing something specific, where is the official request (on paper?)

This reads more like a game of telephone, where Dershowitz is claiming to know what was said on a phone call on which he wasn't involved. Even if there was a phone call, the description of this call seems fishy, and then just who told him about it? And what effort did he or NewsMax make to verify this call with Corey's office?

Seems about the level of reporting I'd expect from NewsMax.

 

[Rare Truth]

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf

Officer Smith:
Zimmermnn nppeared to hAve a broken and bloody nose and swelling of his face

Officer Ayala:
Zimmerman was also bleeding from his nose and the back of his head

Officer Serino:
On 3/9/20121 received a fax f rom Altamonte Family Practice, which contained the medical records identifying the Injur ies sustained by Zimmerman on the evening of 2/2612012. Said medical reoords l ist Zimmerman's
injur ies as;
1. Open wound of scalp, wi thout mention of complication
2. Nasal bones, closed fractUre 3. Assaul t by other specI f ied means

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin20120517,0,7498893.story

Medical Report the next day by the "We discussed it was likely broken."

 

[crimresearch]

And there he goes again, making false accusations with nothing to back him up.

At least I showed exactly where you were wrong. What your posts display is just spittle with no backup.

People are free to click the little arrow button after the poster's comment and see for themselves what was said.

The fact is you went on and on, asserting something I never said (that I had seen the medical report, that I said he had *no* injuries, that he had not received treatment) and then insisted the police report never said the EMS cleared Z.

That's a fack, jack.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8274462#post8274462

Originally Posted by johnny karate [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif[/qimg]
...
Did you know that the overwhelming majority of people don't die from minor bumps on the head with no visible injuries?
=============================


Originally Posted by Rare Truth [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif[/qimg]
Especially when they get cleared by Emergency Medical professionals in a matter of minutes before they are due to head into police interrogation and possible night in a jail cell.
=============================


Originally Posted by crimresearch [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif[/qimg]
And you read the report stating that the EMS professionals cleared Zimmerman exactly where?
=============================
Originally Posted by Rare Truth [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif[/qimg]
Duh. You didn't read the police report?? Wow. That's like square One.
.
I posted this last week, for those paragraph challenged, and I could have sworn you were part of the conversation then, but no matter.

Here, again. The picture version of the police report for those that didn't bother to read it.

[qimg]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/who007/TMCleared-1-1-1.jpg[/qimg]

=============================
Originally Posted by crimresearch [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif[/qimg]
The police report said no such thing. It specifically said that he was given first aid, not that he was cleared.
And you never read any Emergency Medical professional's report, you simply made that up. This is as irrelevant as the 'tactical flashlight' verbage.

Do you have anything that is either correct or useful?

=============================
Originally Posted by crimresearch [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif[/qimg]
Oops indeed... The fact is that you were simply making it up when you pretended to have seen an 'Emergency Medical' report saying that Zimmerman was simply 'cleared' without treatment.

The police report that you are trying to pass of as a medical document confirms that Zimmerman was in fact treated first, and not just cleared.

This nonsense was debunked thousands of posts ago, and none of your spin, denial, or straw is going to change that.

You've got nothing.
=============================
Originally Posted by Rare Truth [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif[/qimg]
Perhaps reading my posts might clear it up for you. I never said I had seen the EMS report, in fact, just a few posts ago, I said none of us had.

I *did* say the police report EMS stated it cleared Zimmerman, and shazam! It did.

There's no crawfishing back for you from THIS erroneous comment made by you:
Originally Posted by crimresearch The police report said no such thing. It specifically said that he was given first aid, not that he was cleared. ...
Me: Suck it up and admit you were wrong. No big deal. It happens.
=============================
=============================

Sequentially presented, for your pleasure.
No need to reply. Here, the readers will be the judge.

Yes, I'm sure that there are people here who are capable of judging that you still haven't produced the 'Emergency Medical professional's' report (which has nothing to do with any police report) supporting your claim that Zimmerman was cleared without being treated, and had no injuries. And I'm sure that they can also see that the police report states that Zimmerman was treated for *injuries*.

I'm also sure you'll produce it though, just as soon as you finish making that cherry pie...

 

[Rare Truth]

In addition:

his "breathing is normal".

The circled "obese" is just an extra. For other discussions. lol.

 

[Rare Truth]

Yes, I'm sure that there are people here who are capable of judging that you still haven't produced the 'Emergency Medical professional's' report (which has nothing to do with any police report) supporting your claim that Zimmerman was cleared without being treated, and had no injuries.

I'm also sure you'll produce it though, just as soon as you finish making that cherry pie...

Wow. After all that, you're still making claims I never made, and refusing to man up and admit your mistake after that presentation.

Amazing.

Should we be surprised? Obviously not.

 

[crimresearch]

Wow. After all that, you're still making claims I never made, and refusing to man up and admit your mistake after that presentation.

Amazing.

Should we be surprised? Obviously not.

'That presentation' where you quoted your own words (Emergency Medical professionals) a few seconds before claiming I made them up...

You've got nothing. Buh-bye.

 

[GWCarver]

Yes, I'm sure that there are people here who are capable of judging that you still haven't produced the 'Emergency Medical professional's' report (which has nothing to do with any police report) supporting your claim that Zimmerman was cleared without being treated, and had no injuries.

I'm also sure you'll produce it though, just as soon as you finish making that cherry pie...

The report by Officer Timothy Smith, which is in the discovery pdf, contains the following sentence:

"Zimmerman was treated on scene by SFD for his injuries."

I guess that wraps that up.