Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Cylinder]

When did he give the second passport to the attorney and wouldn't the attorney have immediately informed the court of this? I missed that part.

Mark O'Mara filed a notice to the court after the passport was found and FedExed to him. The pleading was never filed with the court. This was a couple of days after the original bond hearing,

He knew he wasn't giving the court his only passport.

There is no evidence to support his. George thought a passport was in a bag. Shelley thought it was in the safety deposit box.

 

[GWCarver]

We won't know exactly what's in George's statements until they are released. Until then, creating elaborate scenarios like Trayvon circling the car or confronting him while George was still inside are the epitome of speculation. If one sort is ok around here, then fine. Then anything goes, including watermelon lean and attacking the bus driver and all the other unsubstantiated crap that goes on here. But then people shouldn't complain about other people engaging in the same sort of loose concern for the "facts".

So you don't think the Assistant State Attorney assigned to this case can be trusted to tell the truth in court about what is in Zimmerman's statement(s)?

The rest of the stuff your are talking about has nothing to do with TM circling Z's truck, and I don't think I've even commented on any of it here other than to say that without evidence TM had cough syrup, all of the lean talk is just speculation.

 

[Unabogie]

Same place she heard the shots.

Same place that Zimmerman got favoritism because his father was a Supreme Court justice. Same place that there were no injuries and no sign of blood. Same place that the screams were those of a little boy. Same place that Zimmerman used his passport to hide out in Peru. Same place that Trayvon was executed with a bullet in the back of his head.

Gullibility Central

Guess you missed the part where I posted exact times of these statements and Elvis admitted he was wrong. You could learn a few things about graciousness and civility from him.

 

[Cylinder]

We don't know who spoke first...

Why do you keep repeating that? If you beleive DeeDee's statement, you do know who spoke first.

 

[Unabogie]

So you don't think the Assistant State Attorney assigned to this case can be trusted to tell the truth in court about what is in Zimmerman's statement(s)?

The rest of the stuff your are talking about has nothing to do with TM circling Z's truck, and I don't think I've even commented on any of it here other than to say that without evidence TM had cough syrup, all of the lean talk is just speculation.

I think cherry picking statements (or hearing someone else cherry pick them) like this is likely to lead us to false conclusions. Hopefully soon, we'll get George's actual, complete statements to read. When we do, we can figure out what his actual story is.

And while we're speculating, my bet is that George told multiple versions of his story.

 

[Unabogie]

Why do you keep repeating that? If you beleive DeeDee's statement, you do know who spoke first.

True. I'll retract that. What I was getting at is that we don't have all of the witness statements yet, so we can't know much for sure. But yes, I think Trayvon spoke first.

 

[Cylinder]

Mark O'Mara's 911 call to report death threats.

 

[Unabogie]

Mark O'Mara's 911 call to report death threats.

People getting out of hand.

 

[crimresearch]

Guess you missed the part where I posted exact times of these statements and Elvis admitted he was wrong. You could learn a few things about graciousness and civility from him.

See the thing is, I 'missed them' because they don't exist. There is no exact time where DeeDee heard the gunshots. There is no exact time where a little boy is screaming while being beaten.

When you 'miss things', it is because you have your hands over your eyes, and are hoping that the memory hole trick will work.

 

[Unabogie]

See the thing is, I 'missed them' because they don't exist. There is no exact time where DeeDee heard the gunshots. There is no exact time where a little boy is screaming while being beaten.

When you 'miss things', it is because you have your hands over your eyes, and are hoping that the memory hole trick will work.

What the hell are you talking about? I addressed this pages ago and posted the part of the recording I misheard and admitted my error. I'm talking about the part where she says George sounded angry. You seemed to be claiming that I haven't produced my source for this, which makes me think you don't actually read the thread and just like to be surly.

But hey, we all make mistakes. Like when you falsely claimed that George didn't have a valid, current passport, and even went so far to chastise another poster for saying he did. I posted the link that clearly showed George has a second passport that expires in 2014, but you didn't seem to see that post either.

And you certainly haven't admitted your mistake and apologized for getting it wrong.

No one's perfect, eh?

 

[crimresearch]

What the hell are you talking about? I addressed this pages ago and posted the part of the recording I misheard and admitted my error. I'm talking about the part where she says George sounded angry. You seemed to be claiming that I haven't produced my source for this, which makes me think you don't actually read the thread and just like to be surly.

But hey, we all make mistakes. Like when you falsely claimed that George didn't have a valid, current passport, and even went so far to chastise another poster for saying he did. I posted the link that clearly showed George has a second passport that expires in 2014, but you didn't seem to see that post either.

And you certainly haven't admitted your mistake and apologized for getting it wrong.

No one's perfect, eh?

You spinning a fraudulent claim about Zimmerman having a *valid* passport in his possession while he sat in jail, doesn't make you perfect... or me mistaken. Neither does your pretense that the judge didn't dismiss that issue as reasonable.

What it does is destroy your credibility ... you know how that works, right?

Neither you or anyone else has proven anything on the list I gave, because they were all fabrications... yet they got posted here as 'fact' anyway.

And you have been one of the prime cheerleaders for some of them, long after they were proven false.

You directly quoted my post about hearing the gunshots, and in specific response to that, claimed you had posted exact times. You were, in the vernacular, making a material misrepresentation.

Play your disingenous games with someone else.

 

[Kaosium]

Putting aside that this would invalidate the work of people like Thurgood Marshall,

I suspect there's a misunderstanding regarding what I meant. I highly doubt Thurgood Marshall would want any part of what I'm talking about, especially when one considers the demographics of those accused of crimes.

I have to ask, when were there any credible threats of riots? Aside from a few fringe groups, the protestors repeatedly insisted on non-violent protest, only. In fact, that was much of the idea behind the protests, to let people vent peacefully - and the few people that so much as knocked over waste barrels (a few OWS folks at the Million Hoodie Rally in NYC) were denounced by other protesters.

I've seen numerous references to possible riots in Florida and elsewhere if there wasn't a more 'satisfactory' resolution to the event, which appeared to be the demand for a trial. That there were people such as Al Sharpton (I believe he was the one I read) having to denounce rioting and Alan Dershowitz convinced (as per the bit I posted yesterday) that the prosecutor was appointed to prevent riots suggests to me that the climate was ripe for rioting. It is of course going to be the fringe elements that start riots, not the peaceful protesters, there is a difference. I come from a protest town, I know how it goes.

Acid test: I was going over some earlier media accounts and came across something I didn't realize was actually on television: some clown offered a bounty (to kidnap) George Zimmerman before the charges were announced. To my knowledge that person was not arrested for that crime, nor did the pundit decry said statement or do much of anything other than try to keep him 'on message' p) and clarify that it was kidnapping and not killing that the bounty was for. For that to take place and there be no consequences additionally suggests that the conditions were ripe for potential riots.

Perhaps I am wrong but to this date that person is not in custody and awaiting trial as he ought to be, that also suggests an environment ripe for rioting to break out: somehow those actions were considered 'justified.'

Or is it that they fear riots were he to be arrested?

 

[PhantomWolf]

If this goes to trial and GZ is acquitted, then so be it. 12 people, or 6, will have seen things I didn't see. I think GZ was wrong but that opinion and $5 will get me lunch at Wendy's.

This is a weird thing to say. If he is acquitted it will be because the prosecution can't prove beyond reasonable doubt that he was guilty. Unless you think that what has been released so far proves murder beyond a reasonable doubt, then the result, on the facts released so far, must be aquittal, it's that simple. It's not about what you believe happened, it's not about what you think happened, and it's not about what you speculate could have happened, it's about what can be proven to have happened, and I doubt that the most rabid anti-GZ would declare that they can currently prove beyond reasonable doubt that GZ murdered TM.

This is the thing I find funniest about the whole bail thing. It doesn't matter if you believe GZ, it doesn't matter if you think he is the biggest liar out there. The case doesn't rest on his credibility at all. In an immunty trial it would, but not in a criminal one. In a criminal case regardless of how honest or dishonest the defendant is, the prosecution has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty, and unless they have something hidden away that is huge, the evidence doesn't appear to be there to do that. The fact that one person had all the fight related injuries, and the other had nothing up until the gun shot clearly shows that one person in the fight was on the end of a beating and wasn't hitting the other back. You can argue about the seriousness of the injuries until the cows come home, it doesn't matter, everyone is fully aware that being hit in the head is a threat to your life, many people have died from being hit in the head. As such, trying to show that a person being hit in the head was not in genuine fear of their life without witnesses to the event, is going to be extremely hard, if not impossible.

 

[Unabogie]

You spinning a fraudulent claim about Zimmerman having a *valid* passport in his possession while he sat in jail, doesn't make you perfect... or me mistaken. Neither does your pretense that the judge didn't dismiss that issue as reasonable.

What it does is destroy your credibility ... you know how that works, right?

Neither you or anyone else has proven anything on the list I gave, because they were all fabrications... yet they got posted here as 'fact' anyway.

And you have been one of the prime cheerleaders for some of them, long after they were proven false.

You directly quoted my post about hearing the gunshots, and in specific response to that, claimed you had posted exact times. You were, in the vernacular, making a material misrepresentation.

Play your disingenous games with someone else.

Who said it was in his possession "while in jail"? That's completely ridiculous and no one made that claim. But you made another silly claim, which was that George only had an expired passport. Here you are, saying this silly and false claim.

Skeptic Ginger said:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger
You missed a little detail there, CR. I'm pretty sure it's been reported that George turned over his expired passport he had previously claimed was lost, while his wife told him she put his unexpired replacement passport in their safe deposit box and George told her to keep it safe.

And then you responded:

You are, as usual, spinning a load of bull, in order to pretend that reality doesn't exist.

The judge rejected the prosecutor's motion on the passport. Period. End of story. Zimmerman didn't have the other one. Expired means expired, not 'current'. There was no such deception as you are fabricating.

But feel free to tell us how the judge simply doesn't understand the law as well as you do...

Notice how polite you are here? I get warm and fuzzy just reading it. Oh, and I love how you include no links. Sterling.

One problem.

This is clearly false, since George did have a second passport, that expired in 2014, and he only turned it in later after the DA checked with the State Department. Now, he may have told his lawyer, but none of them told the court. That's just the facts, and you tried to bully Ginger even though you were 100% wrong.

Uncivil AND wrong.

You're doing great. Keep it up.

In regards to Zimmerman's passport mix up, the motion uses state department records to prove the existence of a second passport. Records show Zimmerman applied for a second passport in 2004 because the passport he surrendered to the judge "was lost or stolen." Zimmerman was granted a new passport that wouldn't expire until 2014.

 

[GWCarver]

I think cherry picking statements (or hearing someone else cherry pick them) like this is likely to lead us to false conclusions. Hopefully soon, we'll get George's actual, complete statements to read. When we do, we can figure out what his actual story is.

And while we're speculating, my bet is that George told multiple versions of his story.

I haven't heard anyone say Zimmerman told multiple versions of TM circling his truck. Quite the contrary:

"George Zimmerman told investigators that while he was on the phone with a Sanford police dispatcher reporting Trayvon Martin as suspicious, the teenager was circling his vehicle on foot, a source familiar with the investigation told the Orlando Sentinel.

The source said Zimmerman's account of events hasn't changed in his several statements to police — in which he said he was so unnerved by the teen's behavior that he rolled up his window to avoid a confrontation. However, he never mentioned any of that while talking to the dispatcher."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...secutor-angela-corey-source-police-department

 

[Unabogie]

I haven't heard anyone Zimmerman told multiple versions of TM circling his truck. Quite the contrary:

"George Zimmerman told investigators that while he was on the phone with a Sanford police dispatcher reporting Trayvon Martin as suspicious, the teenager was circling his vehicle on foot, a source familiar with the investigation told the Orlando Sentinel.

The source said Zimmerman's account of events hasn't changed in his several statements to police — in which he said he was so unnerved by the teen's behavior that he rolled up his window to avoid a confrontation. However, he never mentioned any of that while talking to the dispatcher."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...secutor-angela-corey-source-police-department

Again, an anonymous source "close to the investigation" could be someone from George's camp. Since we don't know who it is, I don't think we should put too much weight into what they said. When his statements come out in the next few weeks (hopefully) we'll know enough to judge how truthful and consistent he was.

Again, my bet is that he wasn't. But we'll see.

 

[crimresearch]

Who said it was in his possession "while in jail"? That's completely ridiculous and no one made that claim. But you made another silly claim, which was that George only had an expired passport. Here you are, saying this silly and false claim.

Skeptic Ginger said:



And then you responded:



Notice how polite you are here? I get warm and fuzzy just reading it. Oh, and I love how you include no links. Sterling.

One problem.

This is clearly false, since George did have a second passport, that expired in 2014, and he only turned it in later after the DA checked with the State Department. Now, he may have told his lawyer, but none of them told the court. That's just the facts, and you tried to bully Ginger even though you were 100% wrong.

Uncivil AND wrong.

You're doing great. Keep it up.

So your proof that I wasn't talking about DeeDee hearing the gunshots, in post #12298 is that some other poster was talking about something else before you quoted *me* on the gunshots and claimed you had posted the exact times?

And Zimmerman had a current passport *in his possession* because it was somewhere else, and the one he did have was expired?

And the judge never ruled that was reasonable because you keep claiming otherwise?

So if you don't want to accused of making a 'material misrepresentation', what other word would fit? http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/entry/misrepresent

Last time. Do you have anything on topic that is either correct, or useful?

 

[Unabogie]

So your proof that I wasn't talking about DeeDee hearing the gunshots, in post #12298 is that some other poster was talking about something else before you quoted *me* on the gunshots and claimed you had posted the exact times?

And Zimmerman had a current passport *in his possession* because it was somewhere else, and the one he did have was expired?

And the judge never ruled that was reasonable because you keep claiming otherwise?

So if you don't want to accused of making a 'material misrepresentation', what other word would fit? http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/entry/misrepresent

Last time. Do you have anything on topic that is either correct, or useful?

What the hell are you talking about? We're talking about George's passport. You falsely ( and rudely) claimed that no such second passport existed.

True of false? Did a second one exist?

Yes. Did he turn it in?

No, not until later.

Did anyone claim that he had it "in his jail cell"?

No, you just made that up.

Then you got unpleasant about the whole mess.

You were wrong. You got a specific fact grossly wrong and yelled at someone over it.

Now, is there shame in being wrong? No, I was wrong about something I thought DeeDee said. But I posted the link, pointed out where I was wrong, and apologized. Have you? No, you're doubling down and compounding your error with more rudeness.

Now, regarding the recording, we weren't talking about the gunshots. We were talking about her use of the word "angry" to describe George and his "WHAT ARE YOU DOING AROUND HERE".

Try and follow along. It sounds like you're not even paying attention at this point. You have one gear: full throttle abrasive.

Dial it back a bit, mmmkay?

 

[crimresearch]

What the hell are you talking about? We're talking about George's passport. You falsely ( and rudely) claimed that no such second passport existed.

True of false? Did a second one exist?

Yes. Did he turn it in?

No, not until later.

Did anyone claim that he had it "in his jail cell"?

No, you just made that up.

Then you got unpleasant about the whole mess.

You were wrong. You got a specific fact grossly wrong and yelled at someone over it.

Now, is there shame in being wrong? No, I was wrong about something I thought DeeDee said. But I posted the link, pointed out where I was wrong, and apologized. Have you? No, you're doubling down and compounding your error with more rudeness.

Now, regarding the recording, we weren't talking about the gunshots. We were talking about her use of the word "angry" to describe George and his "WHAT ARE YOU DOING AROUND HERE".

Try and follow along. It sounds like you're not even paying attention at this point. You have one gear: full throttle abrasive.

Dial it back a bit, mmmkay?

I'll take that pile of fabrications as a 'No, I still have nothing either correct, or useful on topic'.

 

[GWCarver]

Again, an anonymous source "close to the investigation" could be someone from George's camp. Since we don't know who it is, I don't think we should put too much weight into what they said. When his statements come out in the next few weeks (hopefully) we'll know enough to judge how truthful and consistent he was.

Again, my bet is that he wasn't. But we'll see.

The original source was Gilbreath being interviewed by de la Rionda during a CNN commercial break. The purpose was to get into the record the fact that Zimmerman had said TM circled his truck in all of his statements, but hadn't told the non-emergency response operator about it. That was suppose to prove his statements were contradicted by the "911" tape of the conversation, which was, and is, nonsense.

I have the transcript on a different computer. I'll put up the relevant exchange tomorrow.