Pat Robertson... Really? Reallyy????

[crimresearch]

I must be out of the loop - what's wrong with MMA?

IMO... For the purposes of being 'The Face of JREF', the same thing that's 'wrong' with the Kardashians, American Idol, and a hundred other forms of 'reality' TV that appeal directly to the triune brain instead of logic.

 

[zooterkin]

For the purposes of being 'The Face of JREF', the same thing that's 'wrong' with the Kardashians, American Idol, and a hundred other forms of 'reality' TV that appeal directly to the triune brain instead of logic.

I'll repeat my earlier question. Did you actually read the article about the MMA artist?


ETA: What does the triune brain have to do with anything?

 

[carlitos]

IMO... For the purposes of being 'The Face of JREF' a snob, the same thing that's 'wrong' with the Kardashians, American Idol, and a hundred other forms of 'reality' TV that appeal directly to the triune brain instead of logic.

fixed. And LOLing at 'triune brain.'

 

[jaydeehess]

I must be out of the loop - what's wrong with MMA?

apparently its "steroid fueled" and too violent for the OP

The university ad likely is the result of a previous search or visit to the website of some other university. Let's remember that its a mindless computer program that inserted the ad

 

[crimresearch]

fixed. And LOLing at 'triune brain.'

No, you simply fabricated a strawman fallacy to avoid dealing with a challenge to your superstitious faith in TV.

 

[crimresearch]

apparently its "steroid fueled" and too violent for the OP

The university ad likely is the result of a previous search or visit to the website of some other university. Let's remember that its a mindless computer program that inserted the ad

So called 'reality TV' spectator sports is simply too *fake* for the OP.

But my being skeptical certainly shouldn't stop you from enjoying it, now should it?

 

[carlitos]

No, you simply fabricated a strawman fallacy to avoid dealing with a challenge to your superstitious faith in TV.

This makes no sense. Superstitious faith in TV about what?

If you think MMA is fake, you can easily test this claim just like that Japanese guy did in the link posted earlier. Good luck!

ETA - Spectator sports are not "so called reality TV," so there's your strawman.

 

[crimresearch]

This makes no sense. Superstitious faith in TV about what?

If you think MMA is fake, you can easily test this claim just like that Japanese guy did in the link posted earlier. Good luck!

ETA - Spectator sports are not "so called reality TV," so there's your strawman.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8197108#post8197108

Yeah.... it doesn't get more 'real' than this.

But if you want to derail this thread into an internet tough guy challenge, start your own thread. This one is about whether JREF has an image to maintain, and if so, what/who fits that image.

I don't think that Pat Robertson, or for that matter Sylvia Browne (should she decide to purchase advertising on that feed), are a good fit.

I don't think that MMA prowess, or any other facet of TV ratings popularity should be a factor over whether Steven Hawking or Brock Lesnar gets featured on the next JREF front page.

I'll concede your point that any MMA fighter could whip Hawking... and I'd ask, so what?

I hear that Charlie Sheen is a pretty skeptical guy.

 

[Klimax]

Equating Pat Robertson to Silvia Brown is quiet a stretch considering there so far no bases for it...

(At best.)

 

[crimresearch]

Equating Pat Robertson to Silvia Brown is quiet a stretch considering there so far no bases for it...

(At best.)

Do tell.

 

[carlitos]

So called 'reality TV' spectator sports is simply too *fake* for the OP.

But my being skeptical certainly shouldn't stop you from enjoying it, now should it?

You seem to be (intentionally?) missing the point.

No one calls spectator sports "reality TV."

MMA is not "fake," in the sense that many martial arts are woo-ish about chi power or whatever. It's just guys fighting.

But if you want to derail this thread into an internet tough guy challenge, start your own thread. This one is about whether JREF has an image to maintain, and if so, what/who fits that image.

I am not starting an internet tough guy challenge, and don't understand why you have all of these straw man arguments.

I don't think that Pat Robertson, or for that matter Sylvia Browne (should she decide to purchase advertising on that feed), are a good fit.

Noted. However, that's how the google search algorithm works, and if you just stay signed in, you see no ads at all. Problem solved!

I don't think that MMA prowess, or any other facet of TV ratings popularity should be a factor over whether Steven Hawking or Brock Lesnar gets featured on the next JREF front page.

Obviously, that's a false binary, but I think that I get your point. You seem to feel that physical sports are too commonplace / ordinary / lowlife for the front page of the JREF. Is that a fair characterization of your point?

Might you concede that using characters in popular culture who are themselves skeptics could be useful in spreading the JREF message beyond folks who are fans of Steven Hawking?

I'll concede your point that any MMA fighter could whip Hawking... and I'd ask, so what?

You are conceding a point that I did not make. Again, with the straw men.

I hear that Charlie Sheen is a pretty skeptical guy.

 

[Beerina]

I'm not really sure I understand the analogy, since MMA is just one of many Martial Arts. Some Martial Arts can include a fair amount of woo, but that depends to a large degree on the teacher. Where one teacher may invoke Chi as the explanation for why something works, another may use biomechanics for the exact same technique.

That's the issue. "Martial Arts" is crammed to the gills with woo and prestidigitaton-like trickery. Chi, coal walking, board punching, brick punching, these things overlap and use tricks.

MMA, though I don't watch it, is an active pro, real sport akin to boxing or Olympic wrestling. And unlike pro wrestling.

 

[zooterkin]

That's the issue. "Martial Arts" is crammed to the gills with woo and prestidigitaton-like trickery. Chi, coal walking, board punching, brick punching, these things overlap and use tricks.

As I said, some Martial Arts have Chi and such-like often attached (but not always, and not always for particular types. I've attended judo, karate, Pencak Silat and Wing Chun classes, and none of them had any supernatural elements in the way they were taught); it seems a bit perverse to use the general term "Martial Arts" as a synonym for "Martial Arts which involve woo", when it has a perfectly good meaning already.

MMA, though I don't watch it, is an active pro, real sport akin to boxing or Olympic wrestling. And unlike pro wrestling.

MMA is just one more Martial Art, which happens not to have much woo attached to it. And I still don't understand the OP's point. Why is it bad to have someone from a field (Martial Arts, of whatever sort) which can have, as you point out, woo and trickery attached, taking a skeptical and evidence-based approach?

 

[crimresearch]

Obviously, that's a false binary, but I think that I get your point. You seem to feel that physical sports are too commonplace / ordinary / lowlife for the front page of the JREF. Is that a fair characterization of your point?

Nope. That's a strawman.

 

[crimresearch]

As I said, some Martial Arts have Chi and such-like often attached (but not always, and not always for particular types. I've attended judo, karate, Pencak Silat and Wing Chun classes, and none of them had any supernatural elements in the way they were taught); it seems a bit perverse to use the general term "Martial Arts" as a synonym for "Martial Arts which involve woo", when it has a perfectly good meaning already.


MMA is just one more Martial Art, which happens not to have much woo attached to it. And I still don't understand the OP's point. Why is it bad to have someone from a field (Martial Arts, of whatever sort) which can have, as you point out, woo and trickery attached, taking a skeptical and evidence-based approach?

As I mentioned, Penn and Teller did a pretty good debunking on Martial Arts, and they didn't stop with the mystical energy stuff, they also focused on the whole culture of selling 'deadly warrior secrets' and the hype that surrounds the business end.

In order to separate people from more of their money, the levels of deception employed rival any faith healer that Randi ever debunked. Teacher worship, lineage games, origination myths, secret manuals, potions, retention exercises... it is the stuff of carnies, and it goes back centuries.

So when I hear how *your* grandmaster (general 'you') is the only true grandmaster in the world, and nothing at all like the thousands of other rival grandmasters, other folks may be willing to suspend disbelief, empty the teacup that is their mind, and 'eat bitter'.

And as far as I can see, MMA is simply the televangelist branch of that particular faith based discipline with trophies and title matches replacing the trappings of the temple.

I don't know, I guess I'm just too... skeptical or something to make a good grasshopper.

 

[JJM 777]

I like to think of it as ironic when the woo seller ads end up here. Surely it is the last place these companies wanted to advertise in return for the money they are paying for ad placement.

I vaguely remember Randi commenting in some SWIFT years ago about a banner on JREF website which led to a silly hoax, that it is part of the E to lead people to encounter such idiocy and tackle it. Personally I am not sure what to think about this issue, I vote blank.

 

[Foolmewunz]

As I mentioned, Penn and Teller did a pretty good debunking on Martial Arts, and they didn't stop with the mystical energy stuff, they also focused on the whole culture of selling 'deadly warrior secrets' and the hype that surrounds the business end.

In order to separate people from more of their money, the levels of deception employed rival any faith healer that Randi ever debunked. Teacher worship, lineage games, origination myths, secret manuals, potions, retention exercises... it is the stuff of carnies, and it goes back centuries.

So when I hear how *your* grandmaster (general 'you') is the only true grandmaster in the world, and nothing at all like the thousands of other rival grandmasters, other folks may be willing to suspend disbelief, empty the teacup that is their mind, and 'eat bitter'.

And as far as I can see, MMA is simply the televangelist branch of that particular faith based discipline with trophies and title matches replacing the trappings of the temple.

I don't know, I guess I'm just too... skeptical or something to make a good grasshopper.

Have you ever actually seen MMA?

 

[Checkmite]

I've seen MMA, on TV and Internet, multiple times. And while its not "fake" in the sense that the fighters obviously really are fighting and trying to win, there's plenty to get the skeptic senses tingling on a lighter level. Starting with the fighters being introduced and special attention paid to their different chosen "styles"; yet as soon as the fight starts it almost immediately devolves into the exact same indiscriminate grapple-punching.

 

[Foolmewunz]

I've seen MMA, on TV and Internet, multiple times. And while its not "fake" in the sense that the fighters obviously really are fighting and trying to win, there's plenty to get the skeptic senses tingling on a lighter level. Starting with the fighters being introduced and special attention paid to their different chosen "styles"; yet as soon as the fight starts it almost immediately devolves into the exact same indiscriminate grapple-punching.

I find that's one of the highlights of most legitimate martial arts fighting. Only in totally fixed venues (like heavyweight wrestling) and in fantasies (movies and TV) do you see those lovely poses and stances and perfect flying kicks and chops. Two capable fighters trying to beat the crap out of each other generally look like a couple of kids fighting,... just hurting each other more.

 

[383LQ4SS]

I've seen MMA, on TV and Internet, multiple times. And while its not "fake" in the sense that the fighters obviously really are fighting and trying to win, there's plenty to get the skeptic senses tingling on a lighter level. Starting with the fighters being introduced and special attention paid to their different chosen "styles"; yet as soon as the fight starts it almost immediately devolves into the exact same indiscriminate grapple-punching.

You probably haven't seen enough to spot the difference.

In addition...I don't think the "styles" that are announced mean much of anything these days. And I certainly dont think "special" attention is given to styles. Many avoid classification at all. Generally there are strikers and grapplers. You can subdivide a bit from there. But a persons "style" many times is just the point of entry they were introduced to combat sports. Many guys get their start in wrestling. Some in Judo. Many in Brazilian ju-jitsu, kick boxing etc etc.

Either way...any person who claims to have a "style" that has special properties or powers is instantly exposed. IMO it would be the claims of woo that would be important not a label for where that particular person received the majority of training.