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Are skeptic brains less susceptible to hallucinogenic atrocities?

EGarrett

Illuminator
E
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A couple years ago, a cage-fighter named Jarrod Wyatt drank coffee spiked with hallucinogenic mushrooms, then became convinced his training partner was possessed by the devil, and proceeded to murder and dismember him in brutal fashion.

If a person's brain is already predisposed away from believing in devils and other supernatural things, does this make this less likely they would commit something like this, or would the drugs in question simply override all of this and make you believe in the devil anyway (simply from having heard of the concept), or would you come up with something less supernatural (like the government's mind control rays) to cause you to believe your friend had to be dismembered?

(Note: I have not stated nor implied any particular answer to the question. I am bringing it up for discussion.)
 
It's not solely a sensory issue.
If I "saw" a demon, when sober I'd know it was a hallucination or optical illusion.
If I was drugged, I would not be "sober"- ie my senses might fail me, but so might my ability to rationalise. It would depend on what precise brain functions the drug disrupted.

I suspect sceptics would be less affected afterwards - ie they would conclude whatever they remembered of the demon was an illusion and would dismiss even quite strong emotion related to the memory. Someone who believes in demons beforehand is apt to have his belief confirmed by such an experience.
Maybe that's the root of the old Hashishim story?
 
Soapy Sam said:
I suspect sceptics would be less affected afterwards - ie they would conclude whatever they remembered of the demon was an illusion and would dismiss even quite strong emotion related to the memory. Someone who believes in demons beforehand is apt to have his belief confirmed by such an experience.
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Looking at a skeptical reaction to dream states would be helpful here. When dreaming, the cognitive parts of the brain are partially deactivated, so it's more difficult to judge whether something makes sense or not (some hallucination states probably work the same way).

When I dream about something that is clearly impossible, like time travel or being in two places at once, I usually think, "Huh, I always thought that was impossible, but clearly, I was wrong."

When I wake up I'm always relieved that the universe still works the way it should.
 
aggle-rithm said:
Looking at a skeptical reaction to dream states would be helpful here. When dreaming, the cognitive parts of the brain are partially deactivated, so it's more difficult to judge whether something makes sense or not (some hallucination states probably work the same way).

When I dream about something that is clearly impossible, like time travel or being in two places at once, I usually think, "Huh, I always thought that was impossible, but clearly, I was wrong."

When I wake up I'm always relieved that the universe still works the way it should.
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Now I feel boring. I usually live down nightmares by concluding that what is going on is too implausible and usually dream-me simply sits down to "wait out" the dream state or, sometimes, take over and drive the dream from that point. I usually handle my occasional bouts of sleep paralysis this way.

This, however, is not inherent in my personality but an attitude that developed over time. I am far more susceptible to nightmares and dreams closer to reality, like being dumped or losing teeth. Except, I dreamed the losing-teeth-dream so many times over the years I stopped believing that when I was about 23, as well. If I ever suffer parodontitis, I will be the last to know.

Incidentally, I have have previously been subjected to two types of hallucinogens, which shall remain nameless. (But they are probably the ones you are thinking about. At least the first one you are thinking of is definitely correct.) There is no way to draw a conclusion from my experience but if anyone is curious, I had no hallucinations with any of them. I found the whole experience pretty pointless and felt no need to repeat it. Alcohol has the normal effect on me, except that I seem more susceptible to hangovers, which is why I ain't doing that either. (The only drug I ever found preferable to my normal state of mind was the morphine I was given after having my tonsils out - but it turned out I'm slightly allergic to opioids so that's out too. Which is just as well, I suppose. I don't have any more tonsils and fingers crossed, I won't have to have anything else out.)
 
Having used just about every major hallucinogen known to mankind myself, I would say that the grand majority of hallucinations are clearly not real no matter how high you are, unless you're dealing with deliriants or doses of certain substances that are so potent you are having a nervous breakdown.

I think having a healthy level of critical thinking in your personality plays a very large part in it. People prone to believing in nonsensical woo will often act on what is obviously not real because of confirmation bias. The way these substances are often presented in popular culture is exaggerated and painfully simplified.

But even at 30 times the normal dose of LSD, I was overwhelmed by emotion and barely able to reason, but I could always tell you something was a hallucination unless I was at a level of ego loss that I literally had lost all critical perspective and everything was completely and literally brand new.

Something like belladonna is more like sleep walking, I've seen things clear as day there that I knew were not real that were however more solid and real than anything i'd seen before seemingly, but then you slip into periods where you're basically dreaming while awake and saying and doing nonsensical things. In that case it's not based on observational cause and effect, it's more like random synapses and random behavior.

Smokeable DMT is like literally going to another dimension and perceiving realities your brain could not possibly imagine, as well as alien entities. In those circumstances, you are unable to move and basically are asleep for all intents and purposes, unless you're drifting in and out through oral ingestion.

But when it comes to psilocybin and LSD in my experience after over a hundred experiences, only 2-3 experiences really had any discernible visual hallucinations other than warping fields and subtle tracers. Things like people and objects that are not really there are rare, but easily discernible from reality unless you'r prone to indulging yourself in my anecdotal opinion.

But when I did see things, like rainbow spectrum runes floating on shafts of sunlight and neon green writhing movements in the grass and people's eyes opening and closing that were asleep, I knew they weren't real, and was positively delighted by what I was seeing.
 
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Holy cow, Halfcentaur. That's quite an interesting description of your experiences. Why do you suppose you interpret the experiences this way, while I know more than a few people who interpret them as doorways to another world? Is it simply a matter of interpretation?

~~ Paul
 
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
Holy cow, Halfcentaur. That's quite an interesting description of your experiences. Why do you suppose you interpret the experiences this way, while I know more than a few people who interpret them as doorways to another world? Is it simply a matter of interpretation?

~~ Paul
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Yes, I was going to ask the same. Or at least, I was going to ask the same about DMT. I took a lot of LSD in my youth, and totally agree with what Halfcentaur said. The sorts of hallucinations people who haven't taken it think it leads to just never really occur. And when one does hallucinate, one is never, in my experience, fooled into mistaking it for reality (and this isn't just me--nobody I knew who tool it would have been fooled either). I never did DMT, and wouldn't have cared to from the descriptions I've read of it. But it seems that an awful lot of people who do are utterly convinced that the creatures they "meet" are real--indeed, more real than what is encountered in the workaday world. Pretty obviously, they are wrong about that: but, Halfcentaur, why do you think it is that you weren't dragged down that particular blind alley?
 
I once took three whole travelsickness pills.
Damn, I was wild, in my forties.
 
Halfcentaur said:
Having used just about every major hallucinogen known to mankind myself, I would say that the grand majority of hallucinations are clearly not real no matter how high you are, unless you're dealing with deliriants or doses of certain substances that are so potent you are having a nervous breakdown.

I think having a healthy level of critical thinking in your personality plays a very large part in it. People prone to believing in nonsensical woo will often act on what is obviously not real because of confirmation bias. The way these substances are often presented in popular culture is exaggerated and painfully simplified.

But even at 30 times the normal dose of LSD, I was overwhelmed by emotion and barely able to reason, but I could always tell you something was a hallucination unless I was at a level of ego loss that I literally had lost all critical perspective and everything was completely and literally brand new.

Something like belladonna is more like sleep walking, I've seen things clear as day there that I knew were not real that were however more solid and real than anything i'd seen before seemingly, but then you slip into periods where you're basically dreaming while awake and saying and doing nonsensical things. In that case it's not based on observational cause and effect, it's more like random synapses and random behavior.

Smokeable DMT is like literally going to another dimension and perceiving realities your brain could not possibly imagine, as well as alien entities. In those circumstances, you are unable to move and basically are asleep for all intents and purposes, unless you're drifting in and out through oral ingestion.

But when it comes to psilocybin and LSD in my experience after over a hundred experiences, only 2-3 experiences really had any discernible visual hallucinations other than warping fields and subtle tracers. Things like people and objects that are not really there are rare, but easily discernible from reality unless you'r prone to indulging yourself in my anecdotal opinion.

But when I did see things, like rainbow spectrum runes floating on shafts of sunlight and neon green writhing movements in the grass and people's eyes opening and closing that were asleep, I knew they weren't real, and was positively delighted by what I was seeing.
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Hmm well I found that halucinogenic substances were extremely halucinogenic at higher doses and that as the dose got higher I had a harder time relating anything to anyone as my mind became overwhelmed in vivid halucinations. At really high doses I would become somewhat of a vegetable unable (unwilling) to focus on anything than what was going on in my head. So I wouldn't want to move or talk to anyone and unless they said your hair is buring or something that needed a response I just ignored them. I however also found that at least as much as I took I could always pull myself together and do something for a short period of time and that as vivid as it might be I had no trouble recognizing halucinations as not a real thing. As in no trouble at all. It isn't like this is stuff you see all the time. I know other people have trouble determining reality when high but it was never a question for me.
 
Halfcentaur said:
But when it comes to psilocybin and LSD in my experience after over a hundred experiences, only 2-3 experiences really had any discernible visual hallucinations other than warping fields and subtle tracers. Things like people and objects that are not really there are rare, but easily discernible from reality unless you'r prone to indulging yourself in my anecdotal opinion.
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I'm no psychonaut like you, but several months ago I had my first experience with LSD on top of copious amounts of k2 or some other synthetic cannabinoid.

In addition to the usual tracers and trippy distortions, I had an uncanny and profoundly vivid hallucination triggered by my sitter doing some sort of fast scritching/kneading motion on my arms: her arms become pale and aged, and her fingernails elongated resembling the Wicked Witch of the East. I kept saying over and over "omg, you're turning into a witch, man, how are you doing that!" When she'd stop touching me, her arms would return to normal, then she'd start again and the hallucination picked up right where it left off, transforming in front of me pretty much continuously.

It was absolutely fascinating in the most cerebral way. I was fully aware I was hallucinating.
 
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Dogdoctor said:
I know other people have trouble determining reality when high but it was never a question for me.
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I'm skeptical of the idea that determining reality is a question to anyone... I haven't taken LSD, but I've taken other hallucinogens and one thing that is common in ALL experiences is an obvious intoxication. You know you're not sober. So I have trouble buying the whole drugs-causing-psychotic-delusion thing if there was no preexisting mental condition. Unless for maybe a drug like PCP... that stuff is bonkers.

Re: the OP, I wouldn't say that "skeptic brains" would be less susceptible to any kind of psychotic episode, but many people who consider themselves skeptics do tend to research things more than those who are content with blind faith. For that reason, overdoses (and therefore intense psychotic episodes) aren't as prevalent as they would be with the uneducated. I'd imagine that if even a person without a "skeptic brain" visited a website like erowid.org prior to ingesting a drug, they'd be less susceptible to "hallucinogenic atrocities" simply by learning about what they're doing to their body.
 
EGarrett said:
If a person's brain is already predisposed away from believing in devils and other supernatural things, does this make this less likely they would commit something like this, or would the drugs in question simply override all of this and make you believe in the devil anyway (simply from having heard of the concept), or would you come up with something less supernatural (like the government's mind control rays) to cause you to believe your friend had to be dismembered?
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I haven't tried too many different drugs, but my experience with salvia momentarily left me unable to discern whether I existed, whether I was an infinitessimal seam in reality pressed into reality. After the peak began to subside, I had trouble determining whether I existed in the present or a memory which trailing moments behind the present and continuously flickering out of existence. I'd never been more powerfully affected by anything in my life, I found the experience extremely disturbing and unpleasant.

The reality shattering hallucinations produced by salvia are very abstract, and can make you think things that you'd ordinarily never imagine as a skeptic (like doubting your own existence or perceiving the whole of reality in a tiny singularity), but they do not resemble anything like "look out for those dragons!" or "I'mma kill you, you devil!".

I've never tried psilocybin and can't really comment on whether it triggers the effect of believing someone to be possessed. Erowid's mushroom vault seems to have a few really disturbing trips, though not quite of that nature.
 
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Dessi said:
I haven't tried too many different drugs, but my experience with salvia momentarily left me unable to discern whether I existed, whether I was an infinitessimal seam in reality pressed into reality.
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I'm thinking this thread was inspired by the whole naked-face-eating episode down here in FL... and something like that would require a drug that lasts WAY longer than salvia (which I hear lasts like a minute or two)...

I'm curious as to which drugs at all could be responsible for a "hallucinogenic atrocity." The only one I can really think of is PCP... I'm even skeptical of these bath-salt things that the news is talking about now. The police chief down here tossed that out as a theory and the media has gone nuts with it.
 
MikeSun5 said:
I'm skeptical of the idea that determining reality is a question to anyone... I haven't taken LSD, but I've taken other hallucinogens and one thing that is common in ALL experiences is an obvious intoxication. You know you're not sober. So I have trouble buying the whole drugs-causing-psychotic-delusion thing if there was no preexisting mental condition. Unless for maybe a drug like PCP... that stuff is bonkers.

Re: the OP, I wouldn't say that "skeptic brains" would be less susceptible to any kind of psychotic episode, but many people who consider themselves skeptics do tend to research things more than those who are content with blind faith. For that reason, overdoses (and therefore intense psychotic episodes) aren't as prevalent as they would be with the uneducated. I'd imagine that if even a person without a "skeptic brain" visited a website like erowid.org prior to ingesting a drug, they'd be less susceptible to "hallucinogenic atrocities" simply by learning about what they're doing to their body.
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I had a good friend who took some LSD (without me) and started freaking out because the clouds were animals and the ground was moving in waves. He just needed to be reminded that he was high and that was why he was taking the drug. It's more like seeing those things was fearful to him since he felt out of control and afraid that he might get hurt by all the strange goings on. I was able to change his mind and he enjoyed seeing those things instead of being fearful eventually. He was having a bad trip and I am sure if it went on some serious stuff could have occured because he lost track of what he was doing and where he was. I knew another guy who had a bad trip and ran off and ended up by accident in a grave yard. He became convinced that his heart had stopped and was found bashing himself into a gravestone trying to get his heart to beat again. It happens.
 
Still, a bad LSD trip doesn't seem like it would get to the point of having a violent psychotic episode (although that guy attempting tombstone-CPR on himself *might* qualify)...

...but I'm thinking more along the lines of that crazy face-eater in Miami and stuff like this craziness.
 
I don't know exactly what a person on LSD is capable of however you don't hear much about lsd takers doing anything violent. I did hear of one guy who shot his friend in the face with a shotgun when he was supposedly high on lsd. I knew both of them (both the shooter and guy who had half his face blown off). Not sure if it was lsd but was supposedly lsd and other stuff (alcohol speed). I also knew a kid who was in the car with them when it happened who ran 7 miles home after the incident.
 
Dogdoctor said:
I had a good friend who took some LSD (without me) and started freaking out because the clouds were animals and the ground was moving in waves. He just needed to be reminded that he was high and that was why he was taking the drug. It's more like seeing those things was fearful to him since he felt out of control and afraid that he might get hurt by all the strange goings on. I was able to change his mind and he enjoyed seeing those things instead of being fearful eventually.
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You remind me of something someone more experienced said to me in my early days of LSD/mushrooms: "It only becomes a bad trip when you want it to stop". I had my moments of panic, but you're right, it was never a panic of "Oh my God, all this stuff is real". Instead, it was more "How can I possibly get back from experiencing the world in this weird way? I'm losing my mind!". And the way out of the panic was, to use a terrible cliche, to flow with it.

By the way, did you ever notice that it often seemed that relatively weird stuff had a knack of really happening when you were tripping? I know someone who got on the London Underground, and happened to find themselves in a carriage full of clowns (they were attending a convention). And, as another person I knew brilliantly put it once: "I've lived round here all my life. Nothing unusual ever happens. Yesterday I dropped a tab of acid and went outside, and a hunchback came past on a tricycle".
 
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