Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Dan O.]

Yes, I can just hear the interview:

Warning - Speculation Alert
"Alright, DeeDee, you want Trayvon's killer to be punished don't you? You're going to have to help us out a little here...try harder to remember if you heard ANYTHING else......."

Can the prosecution and/or the defense subpoena the recording of Dee Dee's original statement?

 

[Dan O.]

Sorry, but this is not fun or interesting. When you want to actually address my posts, maybe then we can resume.

I'm only asking you to add support for your argument. It sound like you feel you have already lost and want to run off and hide.

 

[bookworm]

Will you hold the same attitude When George adds new details to his testimony that weren't in his original police statement (which the prosecution already claims is inconsistent with the evidence)? Dee Dee's addition of the "get off" is consistent with the extended debris field. George's claim of being surprised from behind and going down on the first punch is not.

I will hold the same attitude. However, it seems to me his original statements must have been consistent with the evidence because they didn't feel at that time there was reason to arrest him. Also, after the special prosecutor's investigation apparently unearthed an unsatisfactory initial investigation, there haven't been any repercussions to those negligent officers who were involved in that shoddy investigation.

I will fairly look at any inconsistencies and weigh the possible reasons for them. Right now, what I see as a possible reason for DeeDee's inconsistent statements, being that she didn't even find it pressing to call anyone and let them know she was on the phone with TM at the time of his altercation, is that she's playing along with the current agenda that is trying to make this a racist attack.

 

[bookworm]

Can the prosecution and/or the defense subpoena the recording of Dee Dee's original statement?

I don't know. I sure hope so.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I'm only asking you to add support for your argument. It sound like you feel you have already lost and want to run off and hide.

After you failed to address what I have already asked you, and stated you don't even know what my argument is. (whatever the hell the claim you are trying to make is)
No thanks, not a game I want to play.

 

[bookworm]

Will you hold the same attitude When George adds new details to his testimony that weren't in his original police statement (which the prosecution already claims is inconsistent with the evidence)? Dee Dee's addition of the "get off" is consistent with the extended debris field. George's claim of being surprised from behind and going down on the first punch is not.

And will you hold the same attitude if by some miracle some secret witness shows video footage of TM hanging around and then attacking Zimmerman? Or will this still be about Z getting out of his truck?

 

[GWCarver]

is that what the prosecution is going to claim?

I think if the prosecution thinks DeeDee is solid enough to testify to the contents of her most recent statement, they will claim TM was on the bottom screaming and put her on the stand. However, I do think that is unlikely.

I think one needs to look at this from the prosecution's perspective. How are they going to get a 2nd degree murder conviction if TM confronts and sucker punches Z, jumps on top of him, and beats his head against the sidewalk until he get shot? I don't think they can, so they will have to change the altercation from what Z says happened to a scenario that shows Z had a depraved mind. I think they will come up with whatever story they think they can get away with. (I could give examples of how this has worked in other trials, but it is against the rules.) TM being on the bottom is just perfect for the prosecution, so I think that will be their goal. Whether or not they will go with it depends on what the rest of the evidence shows, and their faith in DeeDee to hold up on the stand with a not so friendly attorney asking the questions. When it is all public, we will be able to see which direction they are going. In fact, they will probably leak it. However, if Z's statements are kept under wraps until trial, there is no way of knowing for certain much of anything.

 

[Cylinder]

I think if the prosecution thinks DeeDee is solid enough to testify to the contents of her most recent statement, they will claim TM was on the bottom screaming and put her on the stand. However, I do think that is unlikely.

There's no way the state gets a Martin on bottom theory off the ground. Zimmerman's statement matches eyewitness tesimony and - most damning - the physical evidence. Zimmerman has multiple sites of injury on front and back. Martin has none. Police noted Zimmerman's back to be wet and grassy. Martin was found face down with no marks showing a fall.

 

[bookworm]

I think if the prosecution thinks DeeDee is solid enough to testify to the contents of her most recent statement, they will claim TM was on the bottom screaming and put her on the stand. However, I do think that is unlikely.

I think one needs to look at this from the prosecution's perspective. How are they going to get a 2nd degree murder conviction if TM confronts and sucker punches Z, jumps on top of him, and beats his head against the sidewalk until he get shot? I don't think they can, so they will have to change the altercation from what Z says happened to a scenario that shows Z had a depraved mind. I think they will come up with whatever story they think they can get away with. (I could give examples of how this has worked in other trials, but it is against the rules.) TM being on the bottom is just perfect for the prosecution, so I think that will be their goal. Whether or not they will go with it depends on what the rest of the evidence shows, and their faith in DeeDee to hold up on the stand with a not so friendly attorney asking the questions. When it is all public, we will be able to see which direction they are going. In fact, they will probably leak it. However, if Z's statements are kept under wraps until trial, there is no way of knowing for certain much of anything.

Another problem with this is that the bullet trajectory path will have to support it. Aren't they able to tell pretty much the exact direction a bullet came from?

 

[crimresearch]

Another problem with this is that the bullet trajectory path will have to support it. Aren't they able to tell pretty much the exact direction a bullet came from?

What in the world are you talking about?

 

[GWCarver]

There's no way the state gets a Martin on bottom theory off the ground. Zimmerman's statement matches eyewitness tesimony and - most damning - the physical evidence. Zimmerman has multiple sites of injury on front and back. Martin has none. Police noted Zimmerman's back to be wet and grassy. Martin was found face down with no marks showing a fall.

I get what you are saying, but the prosecutor has the "leeway" to re-invent the fight in closing arguments. They will have an alternate theory to explain away the evidence, if they choose to go this way. Z and TM ended up in a different place from where they started, so Corey can fill in the blanks as to what happened on the way.

The problem with the witnesses is their statements have been fluid, and inconsistent statements can be used to create doubt.

I am seemingly the only one who thinks Corey lost her "depraved mind" witness when W2 said there was only one person instead of two, so she has no evidence to support Z chasing TM back up to the T from the area of Brandy's house. I think that was her original intention. (At the bond hearing, Gilbreath went out of his way to insert W2's original statment in answer to a question about who started the altercation.) That means she needs something else.

 

[Dan O.]

And will you hold the same attitude if by some miracle some secret witness shows video footage of TM hanging around and then attacking Zimmerman? Or will this still be about Z getting out of his truck?

I believe that I was the first here to speculate that Trayvon stopped at the tee and hid to evade George. I believe that Trayvon snuck up on George based on the first witness account of hearing what he though was a shot fired. I believe that Trayvon threw the first punch, perhaps the only punch. But none of that matters. The only thing that counts for the self defense claim is the conditions at the moment that George pulled the trigger and killed Trayvon. Even if Trayvon initiated the fight and George had a valid right to stop Trayvon with deadly force, George should have stayed in his truck and waited for the police. We don't need a video to see that.

 

[crimresearch]

I get what you are saying, but the prosecutor has the "leeway" to re-invent the fight in closing arguments. They will have an alternate theory to explain away the evidence, if they choose to go this way. Z and TM ended up in a different place from where they started, so Corey can fill in the blanks as to what happened on the way.

The problem with the witnesses is their statements have been fluid, and inconsistent statements can be used to create doubt.

I am seemingly the only one who thinks Corey lost her "depraved mind" witness when W2 said there was only one person instead of two, so she has no evidence to support Z chasing TM back up to the T from the area of Brandy's house. I think that was her original intention. (At the bond hearing, Gilbreath went out of his way to insert W2's original statment in answer to a question about who started the altercation.) That means she needs something else.

And not only the defense, but the judge if they are competent, will inform the jury that alternate theories alone *cannot* meet the burden of proof.

 

[Cylinder]

Apparently the state will file a motion today to revoke Zimmerman's bond over a passport issue (the one he turned in was a replacement for a lost passport) and the indigency issue over the PayPal account.

 

[bookworm]

What in the world are you talking about?

I'm talking about the prosecution putting forth a scenario where TM was on the bottom and GZ shot him from on top of him. The forensic evidence should show the path of the bullet and they should be able to tell if TM was shot from above or from below.

 

[Cylinder]

The problem with the witnesses is their statements have been fluid, and inconsistent statements can be used to create doubt.

Right, but the physical evidence presents facts beyond change - at no point did Zimmerman mount any effective defense against Martin's attack. I just don't see an impartial juror finding him at a position of advantage at any time during the altercation. In fact, I think that inability to mount a defense is strong evidence that he was not prepared for the assault - which shows that he did not initiate it.

 

[bookworm]

I believe that I was the first here to speculate that Trayvon stopped at the tee and hid to evade George. I believe that Trayvon snuck up on George based on the first witness account of hearing what he though was a shot fired. I believe that Trayvon threw the first punch, perhaps the only punch. But none of that matters. The only thing that counts for the self defense claim is the conditions at the moment that George pulled the trigger and killed Trayvon. Even if Trayvon initiated the fight and George had a valid right to stop Trayvon with deadly force, George should have stayed in his truck and waited for the police. We don't need a video to see that.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. So, for you, the evidence truly doesn't matter because you are judging this from an emotional or moral viewpoint? Do you just feel that Zimmerman is responsible and should be convicted because he got out of his truck?

 

[GWCarver]

Right, but the physical evidence presents facts beyond change - at no point did Zimmerman mount any effective defense against Martin's attack. I just don't see an impartial juror finding him at a position of advantage at any time during the altercation. In fact, I think that inability to mount a defense is strong evidence that he was not prepared for the assault - which shows that he did not initiate it.

I agree, I don't think the state has a case against Zimmerman, at all. But, if it goes to immunity hearing or trial, the state will present a case, and I think it is fun to speculate exactly what they will come up with. You know, put yourself in Corey's shoes. What would you do?

 

[Cylinder]

I agree, I don't think the state has a case against Zimmerman, at all. But, if it goes to immunity hearing or trial, the state will present a case, and I think it is fun to speculate exactly what they will come up with. You know, put yourself in Corey's shoes. What would you do?

Absolutely. I don't know what their theory is going to be, but with the evidence in public right now, it's a long row to hoe.

 

[GWCarver]

The hearing is live here, right now:

http://www.wftv.com/s/watchlive/