QUOTE=Sabrina;8328474]A lot of you are missing the point.
It's not just letting it happen out of incompetence; it's also letting it happen because we were arrogant. We couldn't conceive of someone planning and executing a successful terrorist attack of that magnitude in the United States unless the person were already a US citizen (i.e. Timothy McVeigh, and even he didn't manage anything near the scale of 9/11). Add to that the fact that, prior to 9/11, the vast majority of terrorist attacks occurred OVERSEAS, and you have a recipe for assumptions that turned out to be erroneous in the extreme.
We had NOTHING actionable; even in all the government documents that have been released, the best we can do is point to items in there and say, "well, in hindsight it seems obvious now, doesn't it?", which doesn't take into account that, AT THE TIME, the assumption was that a terrorist attack would take place OVERSEAS rather than in the US itself. Sure, it's very likely that some people warned of something that was coming, but couldn't provide anything actionable to support their theories, and therefore nothing was done. Incompetence and arrogance at their best, or worst. No one knew, specifically, that terrorists were planning to hijack four airplanes and fly them into buildings and decided to sit back and let it happen; the most anyone really knew was that SOMETHING was likely being planned, but we had little or no information pointing to any specifics such as the planes being hijacked, or that they'd be flown into buildings in kamikaze fashion, or anything approaching a specific timeframe. And in the government, you have to provide ACTIONABLE intelligence in order to get anything done; a nebulous assertion that "an attack is coming" isn't enough to get anyone to sit up and take notice, even now after the attacks. The long and the short of it is, assuming one understands how the government works (which it's clear the truthers in this thread do not), the theory that we let it happen out of ignorance/arrogance/incompetence is much more likely than either the LIHOP or MIHOP scenarios, because those scenarios depend upon many many MANY people keeping their silence for eleven straight years and NOTHING being put down on paper to say "we're going to let it happen" or "this is how we're going to make it happen", and quite frankly, that is 100% IMPOSSIBLE.
But then, what do I know; I merely WORK in/around the government.
[/QUOTE]
Again you leave out the details so what really took place is covered up. According to the 9/11 Commission report, the CIA, and specially Richard Blee, head of the CIA Rendition unit in the CTC, received word that the attack that the CIA had been warned about in the summer of 2001 was led by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
The CIA had already been given evidence by Philippine intelligence officer Colonel Mendoza by Abdul Harkim Murad who confessed that the next plan Khalid Sheikh Mohammed wanted to carry out was a plan to hijack several large commercial aircraft in the US and crash these into the World Trade Center Towers, the Pentagon, the Capital and the CIA HQ. On June 12, 2001 the CIA was told that KSM was sending many al Qaeda terrorists into the US to link up with other al Qaeda terrorists that were already in the US to carry out this plot.
The FBI had posted a 2 million dollar reward on his head and the FAA had issued a bulletin, since the discovery of his Bojinka plot, to stop and arrest KSM if he entered any airport or tried to get on any aircraft. But now we know that the CIA knew he was sending many al Qaeda terrorists into the US to do what it was not possible for him to do.
But the CIA already knew that Nawaf al-Hazmi, a long time al Qaeda terrorist was already inside of the US and that his travel companion Khalid al-Mihdhar had a multi-entry visa for the US. The CIA already knew that both Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdhar had attended an al Qaeda planning meeting in Kuala Lumpur in January 2000 where the CIA thought they were planning future terrorist attacks against the US. Blee was very close to Black, so it is clear that once Blee leaned of KSM involvement in this plot, this information went right to Black and then to Tenet.
We also know on July 10, 2001 in a meeting kept absolute secret by the 9/11 Commission that Blee, Black and Tenet told Rice Hadley and Clarke at the White House that a huge al Qaeda attack was coming to the US that would kill thousands of Americans. What Blee, Black and Tenet failed to mention at this meeting was that they already knew at least one al Qaeda terrorists, Nawaf al-Hazmi, who was going to take part in this attack was already inside of the US. On July 5 2001 Tom Wilshire sent an email back to Blee, Black and Tenet indicating that he thought the people at the Kuala Lumpur meeting, (Mihdhar and Hazmi), were connected to the warning the CIA had been getting about this al Qaeda attack. On July 23, 2001 Wilshire sends another email to Blee, Black and Tenet and indicates that Midhar will be found at the location of the next big al Qaeda attack.
On August 22, both Wilshire and FBI Agent Dina Corsi are informed that the INS had found that al Qaeda terrorists Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi are both inside of the US. This information goes back to the CIA Bin Laden unit, and to Blee, Black and Tenet.
Now at this point the CIA knew:
That both al Qaeda terrorists Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi had attended a al Qaeda planning meeting where future attacks on the US were planned
That both of these al Qaeda terrorists were inside of the US in order to take part in this attack.
That the plan of the person directing this attack, KSM, was to hijack multiple large US aircraft and crash these into the World Trade Center Towers, the Pentagon and the Capital building and perhaps others.
That is attack is imminent, and will take place in just weeks and will kill thousands of Americans
That the warnings of this attack were numerous and intense.
That if the Capital building was a target, the al Qaeda terrorists would not carry out this attack before September 4, 2001, since there would be no one in the Capital Building at this time, but wait to carry out this attack until after September 4, 2001, Labor Day, when the congress returned from their 5 week congressional recess.
But this poster says “but we had little or no information pointing to any specifics such as the planes being hijacked, or that they'd be flown into buildings in kamikaze fashion, or anything approaching a specific timeframe”.
Say what? Is this just total nonsense or what?
When you look at the information the CIA and even the FBI HQ did have, what else did they need? So the big question is why did the CIA, using their inside the FBI man, Tom Wilshire, former Deputy Chief of the CIA Bin Laden unit, who was directing the efforts of FBI Agent Dina Corsi and her supervisor Rod Middleton, shut down the FBI criminal investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi by FBI Agent Steve Bongardt. We know from the emails that were entered into the DOJ IG report and the Moussaoui Defense Exhibit #939, that Blee, Black and Tenet had completely refused to give Wilshire permission to pass the Kuala Lumpur information to the FBI Cole bombing investigators twice in July in spite of his urgent requests to do so.
We also know that it was against the law for Corsi and Middleton to shut this investigation down. First, Corsi already knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, she admits this to the DOJ IG investigators, on page 301 of the DOJ IG report, when she say she knew on August 22 2001 that the CIA had the photo of Cole bombing mastermind, Walid Bin Attash, taken at Kuala Lumpur, and knew that connected both Mihdhar and Hazmi to the planning of this attack. Since planning the attack on the USS Cole is a crime, she knew she has no legal right to either block this information from going to the FBI Cole bombing investigators, and their led Steve Bongardt, or from doing anything to block their investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi.
She also had been approved to give the Kuala Lumpur information, by the NSA on August 27, 2001, and yet tells Bongardt on August 28, 2001 he cannot start any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi because she does not have permission from the NSA to give the NSA information in her EC to him.
This is yet another lie and yet another crime. When Bongardt asks her to get a legal opinion from the NSLU the FBI lawyers, because he does not see any connection between this NSA information and a FISA warrant, she tells Bongardt on August 29, 2001 that the lawyer ruled he cannot take part in any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi. But we know from the 9/11 Commission’s own footnotes that Sherry Sabol, the attorney, told Corsi that since this NSA information had no connection to any FISA warrant, Bongardt could take part in any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi.
Corsi had lied once again and used lies and criminal actions to shut down Bongardt’s investigation of Midhar and Hazmi. We now also have Corsi email back to Bongardt on August 29, 2001, that says “if at such time as information is developed of a substantial Federal crime (by Mihdhar and Hazmi) this information will be passed over the wall. But she already knew these al Qaeda terrorists had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, and knew that they were also connected to the east Africa bombings. So she already had ample evidence that these al Qaeda terrorists had taken part in several substantial Federal crimes. So there is absolutely no way she did not know she was acting illegally and committing a massive crime when she shut down Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi.
On August 30 2001, Rod Middleton, her boss, gets the photos of Bin Attash taken at Kuala Lumpur from the CIA, directly connecting both Mihdhar and Hazmi to the crime of taking part in the planning of the Cole bombing. But he had also been on the phone with Corsi shutting down Bongardt's investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi. With this photo, he has photographic proof of their crimes and hence also knows that his and Corsi actions were illegal.
Since Wilshire was closely supervising Corsi when she shut down Bongardt's investigation, and he knew all along that Bin Attash had been at Kuala Lumpur with Mihdhar and Hazmi, he also knew by directing Corsi and Middleton to shut down Bongardt’s investigation that they are all committing crimes.
But we also know that Blee, Black and Tenet had been directly and secretly controlling Wilshire in his position of Deputy Chief of the ITOS unit at the FBI, to make sure the Kuala Lumpur information never reached the FBI Cole bombing investigators, their refusal to give Wilshire permission to pass the Kuala Lumpur information to the FBI Cole investigators in July 2001 proves this.
And Wilshire, Blee, Black and Tenet all knew about this massive al Qaeda attack that will result in the murder of thousands of Americans. Yet they all continue to allow Corsi and Middleton to criminally shut down Bongardt's investigation.
And yet, even after all of these undisputed facts, some posters on this forum say that there is no proof of intent. YAH RIGHT!
Maybe it was the tooth fairy that made them do all of this.
That's it! It was the tooth fairy.
If that is what you believe, then go right ahead, and be my guest.
It's not just letting it happen out of incompetence; it's also letting it happen because we were arrogant. We couldn't conceive of someone planning and executing a successful terrorist attack of that magnitude in the United States unless the person were already a US citizen (i.e. Timothy McVeigh, and even he didn't manage anything near the scale of 9/11). Add to that the fact that, prior to 9/11, the vast majority of terrorist attacks occurred OVERSEAS, and you have a recipe for assumptions that turned out to be erroneous in the extreme.
We had NOTHING actionable; even in all the government documents that have been released, the best we can do is point to items in there and say, "well, in hindsight it seems obvious now, doesn't it?", which doesn't take into account that, AT THE TIME, the assumption was that a terrorist attack would take place OVERSEAS rather than in the US itself. Sure, it's very likely that some people warned of something that was coming, but couldn't provide anything actionable to support their theories, and therefore nothing was done. Incompetence and arrogance at their best, or worst. No one knew, specifically, that terrorists were planning to hijack four airplanes and fly them into buildings and decided to sit back and let it happen; the most anyone really knew was that SOMETHING was likely being planned, but we had little or no information pointing to any specifics such as the planes being hijacked, or that they'd be flown into buildings in kamikaze fashion, or anything approaching a specific timeframe. And in the government, you have to provide ACTIONABLE intelligence in order to get anything done; a nebulous assertion that "an attack is coming" isn't enough to get anyone to sit up and take notice, even now after the attacks. The long and the short of it is, assuming one understands how the government works (which it's clear the truthers in this thread do not), the theory that we let it happen out of ignorance/arrogance/incompetence is much more likely than either the LIHOP or MIHOP scenarios, because those scenarios depend upon many many MANY people keeping their silence for eleven straight years and NOTHING being put down on paper to say "we're going to let it happen" or "this is how we're going to make it happen", and quite frankly, that is 100% IMPOSSIBLE.
But then, what do I know; I merely WORK in/around the government.
[/QUOTE]Again you leave out the details so what really took place is covered up. According to the 9/11 Commission report, the CIA, and specially Richard Blee, head of the CIA Rendition unit in the CTC, received word that the attack that the CIA had been warned about in the summer of 2001 was led by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
The CIA had already been given evidence by Philippine intelligence officer Colonel Mendoza by Abdul Harkim Murad who confessed that the next plan Khalid Sheikh Mohammed wanted to carry out was a plan to hijack several large commercial aircraft in the US and crash these into the World Trade Center Towers, the Pentagon, the Capital and the CIA HQ. On June 12, 2001 the CIA was told that KSM was sending many al Qaeda terrorists into the US to link up with other al Qaeda terrorists that were already in the US to carry out this plot.
The FBI had posted a 2 million dollar reward on his head and the FAA had issued a bulletin, since the discovery of his Bojinka plot, to stop and arrest KSM if he entered any airport or tried to get on any aircraft. But now we know that the CIA knew he was sending many al Qaeda terrorists into the US to do what it was not possible for him to do.
But the CIA already knew that Nawaf al-Hazmi, a long time al Qaeda terrorist was already inside of the US and that his travel companion Khalid al-Mihdhar had a multi-entry visa for the US. The CIA already knew that both Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdhar had attended an al Qaeda planning meeting in Kuala Lumpur in January 2000 where the CIA thought they were planning future terrorist attacks against the US. Blee was very close to Black, so it is clear that once Blee leaned of KSM involvement in this plot, this information went right to Black and then to Tenet.
We also know on July 10, 2001 in a meeting kept absolute secret by the 9/11 Commission that Blee, Black and Tenet told Rice Hadley and Clarke at the White House that a huge al Qaeda attack was coming to the US that would kill thousands of Americans. What Blee, Black and Tenet failed to mention at this meeting was that they already knew at least one al Qaeda terrorists, Nawaf al-Hazmi, who was going to take part in this attack was already inside of the US. On July 5 2001 Tom Wilshire sent an email back to Blee, Black and Tenet indicating that he thought the people at the Kuala Lumpur meeting, (Mihdhar and Hazmi), were connected to the warning the CIA had been getting about this al Qaeda attack. On July 23, 2001 Wilshire sends another email to Blee, Black and Tenet and indicates that Midhar will be found at the location of the next big al Qaeda attack.
On August 22, both Wilshire and FBI Agent Dina Corsi are informed that the INS had found that al Qaeda terrorists Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi are both inside of the US. This information goes back to the CIA Bin Laden unit, and to Blee, Black and Tenet.
Now at this point the CIA knew:
That both al Qaeda terrorists Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi had attended a al Qaeda planning meeting where future attacks on the US were planned
That both of these al Qaeda terrorists were inside of the US in order to take part in this attack.
That the plan of the person directing this attack, KSM, was to hijack multiple large US aircraft and crash these into the World Trade Center Towers, the Pentagon and the Capital building and perhaps others.
That is attack is imminent, and will take place in just weeks and will kill thousands of Americans
That the warnings of this attack were numerous and intense.
That if the Capital building was a target, the al Qaeda terrorists would not carry out this attack before September 4, 2001, since there would be no one in the Capital Building at this time, but wait to carry out this attack until after September 4, 2001, Labor Day, when the congress returned from their 5 week congressional recess.
But this poster says “but we had little or no information pointing to any specifics such as the planes being hijacked, or that they'd be flown into buildings in kamikaze fashion, or anything approaching a specific timeframe”.
Say what? Is this just total nonsense or what?
When you look at the information the CIA and even the FBI HQ did have, what else did they need? So the big question is why did the CIA, using their inside the FBI man, Tom Wilshire, former Deputy Chief of the CIA Bin Laden unit, who was directing the efforts of FBI Agent Dina Corsi and her supervisor Rod Middleton, shut down the FBI criminal investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi by FBI Agent Steve Bongardt. We know from the emails that were entered into the DOJ IG report and the Moussaoui Defense Exhibit #939, that Blee, Black and Tenet had completely refused to give Wilshire permission to pass the Kuala Lumpur information to the FBI Cole bombing investigators twice in July in spite of his urgent requests to do so.
We also know that it was against the law for Corsi and Middleton to shut this investigation down. First, Corsi already knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, she admits this to the DOJ IG investigators, on page 301 of the DOJ IG report, when she say she knew on August 22 2001 that the CIA had the photo of Cole bombing mastermind, Walid Bin Attash, taken at Kuala Lumpur, and knew that connected both Mihdhar and Hazmi to the planning of this attack. Since planning the attack on the USS Cole is a crime, she knew she has no legal right to either block this information from going to the FBI Cole bombing investigators, and their led Steve Bongardt, or from doing anything to block their investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi.
She also had been approved to give the Kuala Lumpur information, by the NSA on August 27, 2001, and yet tells Bongardt on August 28, 2001 he cannot start any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi because she does not have permission from the NSA to give the NSA information in her EC to him.
This is yet another lie and yet another crime. When Bongardt asks her to get a legal opinion from the NSLU the FBI lawyers, because he does not see any connection between this NSA information and a FISA warrant, she tells Bongardt on August 29, 2001 that the lawyer ruled he cannot take part in any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi. But we know from the 9/11 Commission’s own footnotes that Sherry Sabol, the attorney, told Corsi that since this NSA information had no connection to any FISA warrant, Bongardt could take part in any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi.
Corsi had lied once again and used lies and criminal actions to shut down Bongardt’s investigation of Midhar and Hazmi. We now also have Corsi email back to Bongardt on August 29, 2001, that says “if at such time as information is developed of a substantial Federal crime (by Mihdhar and Hazmi) this information will be passed over the wall. But she already knew these al Qaeda terrorists had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, and knew that they were also connected to the east Africa bombings. So she already had ample evidence that these al Qaeda terrorists had taken part in several substantial Federal crimes. So there is absolutely no way she did not know she was acting illegally and committing a massive crime when she shut down Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi.
On August 30 2001, Rod Middleton, her boss, gets the photos of Bin Attash taken at Kuala Lumpur from the CIA, directly connecting both Mihdhar and Hazmi to the crime of taking part in the planning of the Cole bombing. But he had also been on the phone with Corsi shutting down Bongardt's investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi. With this photo, he has photographic proof of their crimes and hence also knows that his and Corsi actions were illegal.
Since Wilshire was closely supervising Corsi when she shut down Bongardt's investigation, and he knew all along that Bin Attash had been at Kuala Lumpur with Mihdhar and Hazmi, he also knew by directing Corsi and Middleton to shut down Bongardt’s investigation that they are all committing crimes.
But we also know that Blee, Black and Tenet had been directly and secretly controlling Wilshire in his position of Deputy Chief of the ITOS unit at the FBI, to make sure the Kuala Lumpur information never reached the FBI Cole bombing investigators, their refusal to give Wilshire permission to pass the Kuala Lumpur information to the FBI Cole investigators in July 2001 proves this.
And Wilshire, Blee, Black and Tenet all knew about this massive al Qaeda attack that will result in the murder of thousands of Americans. Yet they all continue to allow Corsi and Middleton to criminally shut down Bongardt's investigation.
And yet, even after all of these undisputed facts, some posters on this forum say that there is no proof of intent. YAH RIGHT!
Maybe it was the tooth fairy that made them do all of this.
That's it! It was the tooth fairy.
If that is what you believe, then go right ahead, and be my guest.
Last edited:
