Richard Gage Blueprint for Truth Rebuttals on YouTube by Chris Mohr

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Several reasons:

1) Both Chandler and NIST used two different software programs specifically designed to measure velocity and got the same result. FEMR used a method that is not applicable to measuring velocity and got an impossible result.

2) WTC 7 could not possibly fall at greater than FFA for a full second. That's pure silliness.

3) Tony is a professional mechanical engineer and FEMR is an anonymous poster claiming to be an expert.

ETA: NIST's graph does not show WTC 7 falling at greater than FFA. They said their graph shows FFA. The "faster than FFA" interpretation is made by people who don't understand how to interpret the data.

1) femr2 showed in great detail how his method is a vast improvement over Chandler, and NIST's published curve exceed's freefall.
2) WTC7 most certainly could exceed freefall. I showed why and you could not refute it. It's basic physics, the addition of forces minus resistance.
3) Tony's profession means squat if he is wrong. NIST is chock full of people who exceed his qualifications.

Why not accept my qualifications? I have a Bachelors in Physics, a Bachelors in Astrophysics (University of Minnesota, 1989) and an MS in Mechanical Engineering (Northwestern University, 1998).
 
Why not accept my qualifications? I have a Bachelors in Physics, a Bachelors in Astrophysics (University of Minnesota, 1989) and an MS in Mechanical Engineering (Northwestern University, 1998).

Because they're better than Tony, Gage, and his combined? :D
 
1) femr2 showed in great detail how his method is a vast improvement over Chandler
No, he just talked a bunch of techno-babble. The program he used was not suited for velocity.

NIST's published curve exceed's freefall.
You do not understand that the data points are not precise. There is some error when taking data from a video so an average of the data points is used. NIST and Chandler [and any reasonable person] understand this but you do not so your claim of having university degrees is very doubtful.

Chris Mohr demonstrates his total lack of understanding of the laws of physics and what the NIST and Chandler graphs depict when he talks about faster than FFA. He claims to know better than the experts at NIST and a teacher with a BS in physics and a masters degree in math. He does not!

We have scientific conformation from both sides that WTC 7 fell at FFA for ~2.25 seconds. Why can't you and Chris accept that?

2) WTC7 most certainly could exceed freefall. I showed why and you could not refute it. It's basic physics, the addition of forces minus resistance.
I agree that the core falling AT FFA could pull the exterior wall down at slightly faster than FFA for an instant but not a full second.

3) Tony's profession means squat if he is wrong.
Show that he is wrong with data, sources and a spreadsheet. All the techno-babble is meaningless without data and calculations.

NIST is chock full of people who exceed his qualifications.
So what? Tony is qualified to find the proper input data for sagging and use it to make a spreadsheet showing the loss to sagging vs the expansion due to heating.
Tony produced a spreadsheet, the formulas he used and references to where he got the input data. No one has produced any data to refute his work, just a lot of techno-babble and denial.

Why not accept my qualifications? I have a Bachelors in Physics, a Bachelors in Astrophysics (University of Minnesota, 1989) and an MS in Mechanical Engineering (Northwestern University, 1998).
Post your real name so they can be verified. Anyone can claim to be anything using a pseudo-name. It means nothing without verification.
 
No, he just talked a bunch of techno-babble. The program he used was not suited for velocity.

You do not understand that the data points are not precise. There is some error when taking data from a video so an average of the data points is used. NIST and Chandler [and any reasonable person] understand this but you do not so your claim of having university degrees is very doubtful.

Chris Mohr demonstrates his total lack of understanding of the laws of physics and what the NIST and Chandler graphs depict when he talks about faster than FFA. He claims to know better than the experts at NIST and a teacher with a BS in physics and a masters degree in math. He does not!

We have scientific conformation from both sides that WTC 7 fell at FFA for ~2.25 seconds. Why can't you and Chris accept that?

I agree that the core falling AT FFA could pull the exterior wall down at slightly faster than FFA for an instant but not a full second.

Show that he is wrong with data, sources and a spreadsheet. All the techno-babble is meaningless without data and calculations.

So what? Tony is qualified to find the proper input data for sagging and use it to make a spreadsheet showing the loss to sagging vs the expansion due to heating.
Tony produced a spreadsheet, the formulas he used and references to where he got the input data. No one has produced any data to refute his work, just a lot of techno-babble and denial.

Post your real name so they can be verified. Anyone can claim to be anything using a pseudo-name. It means nothing without verification.
I don't have to prove anything. Burden of proof for CD still lies on you, chum, and you haven't met the bar yet to my reckoning. By the way, I also know all about measurement error, I have performed several Measurement Systems Analyses (got me my Six Sigma Black Belt, 2003). You can't say it was measurement error without performing one or having the error in hand yourself.

I already told you my name, by the way. I need do no further. My qualifications are what they are. Who are you to question them?

ETA: as far as femr2's analysis: not technobabble. I understand it. One of my Mech E courses was machine vision, it was helpful in understanding video processing techniques.
 
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ETA: as far as femr2's analysis: not technobabble. I understand it. One of my Mech E courses was machine vision, it was helpful in understanding video processing techniques.

From the opposite side, I'm a computer scientist and I understood the concepts involved in the analysis just fine. I think Chris just likes to call anything that goes over his head "technobabble".
 
C7 may have a point when he asks about the margin of error of individual data points. I am not sure if this concern has been adequately addressed by femr2, and if yes, if the error margin has been found to be small enough to retain confidence in the existence of an over-g period.
I simply don't know. I kinda remember that this was a big point of contention when he first presented his results here, but don't remember, or perhaps never saw, how this was resolved (also, I may mix this up with the "missing jolt" debate).

C7 is, however, wrong when he asserts that leaving out data points and going with averages over longer time intervals is a solution to the problem of margin of error. This approach smoothes out the signal as much as the error. That is, in effect, what NIST had done in their draft report: They took just two data points - beginning of north wall descent, and a moment just before it drops out of sight, and computed an average acceleration well below g. This method obviously would mask any period of at-g or over-g acceleration, if most of the fall was under-g. And the same happens if you elect to go with a coarser grid than what your original dataset allows. Chandler takes averages, just like NIST did originally, only for somewhat finer intervals, and his method, too is thus prone to mask real signals towards the extreme end of reality.
 
I don't have to prove anything. Burden of proof for CD still lies on you
You deny the proof and say there is none.

It's impossible to awaken a man who is pretending to be asleep. (Navajo saying)

I already told you my name, by the way.
No you have not.

You and FEMR are a couple anonymous posters claiming to know better than a teacher with a masters degree in math and several PhD's at NIST.

GMaFB :rolleyes:
 
You deny the proof and say there is none.

It's impossible to awaken a man who is pretending to be asleep. (Navajo saying)

Because there isn't any. What do you have? A paper published in a pay-to-play journal that doesn't even prove what it purports to prove, and personal incredulity. All the NIST-picking in the world won't prove CD; if anything, it can only prove NIST got the details wrong. And you haven't even done that to anyone's satisfaction.
 
You do not understand that the data points are not precise. There is some error when taking data from a video so an average of the data points is used.
NIST's usage of the moiré technique proves just how wrong you are on this account.


NIST and Chandler [and any reasonable person] understand this but you do not so your claim of having university degrees is very doubtful.
Obviously, you're wrong on this too. You misunderstand this, and claim that your flawed point of view should be universal.

That's frequent enough as to need a name. What about "Argument from arrogant ignorance"?

NIST understood that they did not have any subpixel techniques that they could use to trace the building's vertical movement similar to the ones they used for the horizontal movement. That doesn't mean that there aren't any, and since the report was written the tracing techniques have improved, as I've noted to you previously on this thread. And as I've noted to you previously on this thread, NIST's subpixel trace was reproduced and enhanced by femr2 in the horizontal direction, and he traced the vertical direction with exactly the same technique. For reasons I've already explained in this thread, NIST couldn't use the same technique they used for horizontal motion in the vertical direction; femr2 could, despite your repeated denial.


Chris Mohr Sarns demonstrates his total lack of understanding of the laws of physics and what the NIST and Chandler graphs depict when he talks about faster than FFA.
Fixed that for you.


He claims to know better than the experts at NIST and a teacher with a BS in physics and a masters degree in math. He does not!
You claim that your interpretation of NIST's data is correct, and you are wrong.


We have scientific conformation from both sides that WTC 7 fell at FFA for ~2.25 seconds on average. Why can't you and Chris accept that?
Fixed that for you again.


I agree that the core falling AT FFA could pull the exterior wall down at slightly faster than FFA for an instant but not a full second.
And guess what... You are wrong.


Show that he is wrong with data, sources and a spreadsheet. All the techno-babble is meaningless without data and calculations.
The data is there. It's exactly what graphs are: data. That you call it techno-babble doesn't make it so, but as I said, I understand how it sounds like techno-babble to your ears.

And what calculations do you want? The smoothing ones? I'm sure femr2 can post references to the smoothing formulas used for his graphs.
 
Chris7, to say I have a total lack of understanding of the laws of physics is both wrong and mean-spirited. Wish you'd cut the insults. People who know a lot more than either of us also disagree on this point. My layman's understanding is enough to keep up with most of these conversations. As I've said before, the people who know way more than me and agree with me do not think I am too ignorant to speak in this matter, and I think I'm pretty careful about knowing my limits.

The one second of possible greater than freefall I have claimed is qualified in my writings as "possible" and "maybe" with the caveat that it may be within the margin of error of the measurements and you know it. You may not be aware that the one-second of faster-than freefall is the sum total of time possibly faster than freefall of three separate instants of time, each well under a half-second of time, of the NIST measurement using a single point on the top of the perimeter wall to measure. Look at my video again. The possible faster-than-freefall slopes in the NIST graph are separate instants of time, not a single one full second of time all at once.
 
You and FEMR are a couple anonymous posters claiming to know better than a teacher with a masters degree in math and several PhD's at NIST.

GMaFB :rolleyes:

And you're a CARPENTER claiming to know better than the hundreds of PhD's at NIST, plus Dr. Bazant........

Now, where'd that damn irony meter go......
 
And you're a CARPENTER claiming to know better than the hundreds of PhD's at NIST, plus Dr. Bazant........

Now, where'd that damn irony meter go......
BTW it doesn't help me much that I named myself, Chris7 still says I have a total lack of understanding of the basic laws of physics. Oh, yes, he also thinks I claim I know better than NIST, when all I claim is that there MAY be more accurate measuring devices that have been used since NIST's in the past four years. He even has the nerve to deny that people have the degrees they say they do. Insulting. Not exactly compelling scientific arguments.
 
BTW it doesn't help me much that I named myself, Chris7 still says I have a total lack of understanding of the basic laws of physics. Oh, yes, he also thinks I claim I know better than NIST, when all I claim is that there MAY be more accurate measuring devices that have been used since NIST's in the past four years. He even has the nerve to deny that people have the degrees they say they do. Insulting. Not exactly compelling scientific arguments.
Part of the price anyone pays if they go along with C7's trolling.

I you say "X" which disagrees with what C7's revered science teacher Chandler says it is easy to play the same childish game as C7 - "Chandler is known for his errors in science and I wouldn't trust him anywhere near a science class room of schoolchildren....."

All irrelevant.

The only question which matters is "Are you right on 'X' " Even the facts that Chandler is almost certainly wrong AND being untruthful are irrelevant.

Focus on the issue of fact and ask "is it right?" It either is or is not or is not yet determined.

If I say "The cloudless daytime sky is blue" that is a claim of fact which stands independent of any qualification I may hold in Meteorology/Climatology OR colour photography.
 
C7 may have a point when he asks about the margin of error of individual data points. I am not sure if this concern has been adequately addressed by femr2, and if yes, if the error margin has been found to be small enough to retain confidence in the existence of an over-g period.
I simply don't know. I kinda remember that this was a big point of contention when he first presented his results here, but don't remember, or perhaps never saw, how this was resolved (also, I may mix this up with the "missing jolt" debate).

C7 is, however, wrong when he asserts that leaving out data points and going with averages over longer time intervals is a solution to the problem of margin of error. This approach smoothes out the signal as much as the error. That is, in effect, what NIST had done in their draft report: They took just two data points - beginning of north wall descent, and a moment just before it drops out of sight, and computed an average acceleration well below g. This method obviously would mask any period of at-g or over-g acceleration, if most of the fall was under-g. And the same happens if you elect to go with a coarser grid than what your original dataset allows. Chandler takes averages, just like NIST did originally, only for somewhat finer intervals, and his method, too is thus prone to mask real signals towards the extreme end of reality.

The thing is, Oystein, it doesn't even matter. Chris7s "perimeter column CD" belief requires him to have the acceleration curve be Freefall for some period of time, at least in his own mind, as a basic proof that it happened.

The reality is, the building fall dynamics can result in freefall, above freefall, below freefall. It fits in all cases. He cannot prove a permiter collumn CD from freefall, because he cannot disprove the interior collapse can cause the exterior to fall at freefall.
 
Part of the price anyone pays if they go along with C7's trolling.

I you say "X" which disagrees with what C7's revered science teacher Chandler says it is easy to play the same childish game as C7 - "Chandler is known for his errors in science and I wouldn't trust him anywhere near a science class room of schoolchildren....."

All irrelevant.

The only question which matters is "Are you right on 'X' " Even the facts that Chandler is almost certainly wrong AND being untruthful are irrelevant.

Focus on the issue of fact and ask "is it right?" It either is or is not or is not yet determined.

If I say "The cloudless daytime sky is blue" that is a claim of fact which stands independent of any qualification I may hold in Meteorology/Climatology OR colour photography.
Ozeco is right. My question in this debate has always been, "Is this true?" I ask it a hundred times or more in my videos.
 
The thing is, Oystein, it doesn't even matter. Chris7s "perimeter column CD" belief requires him to have the acceleration curve be Freefall for some period of time, at least in his own mind, as a basic proof that it happened.

The reality is, the building fall dynamics can result in freefall, above freefall, below freefall. It fits in all cases. He cannot prove a permiter collumn CD from freefall, because he cannot disprove the interior collapse can cause the exterior to fall at freefall.
LSSBB, One thing I'm uncertain of is Chris7's claim that if the entire interior has already collapsed, then there's nothing inside to create the necessary fulcrum effect to cause near-freefall collapse rates. I can conjecture about an answer to this but would rather hear it from someone who understands physics and buiildings better than I.
 
The thing is, Oystein, it doesn't even matter. Chris7s "perimeter column CD" belief requires him to have the acceleration curve be Freefall for some period of time, at least in his own mind, as a basic proof that it happened.

The reality is, the building fall dynamics can result in freefall, above freefall, below freefall. It fits in all cases. He cannot prove a permiter collumn CD from freefall, because he cannot disprove the interior collapse can cause the exterior to fall at freefall.

Oh you are absolutely right. I certainly didn't mean to imply that C7's argument would mean anything if it were true. I am just wondering if it perhaps is true.

It's the same way with pretty much everything that the AE911T morons push as evidence for CD: Freefall, symmetry, footprint, pulverization, lateral ejections, molten iron, thermite in the dust... Al these claims are dubious, some outright false, but even if they were all true, they simply are not evidence for CD and/or against accidental collapse from fires.
 
Oh you are absolutely right. I certainly didn't mean to imply that C7's argument would mean anything if it were true. I am just wondering if it perhaps is true....
Which somewhat parallels a discussion I was having with Enik flowing from a Tony Sz bit of evasion. One of the issues I raised is the problem that you can get the right answers by wrong methods. And those apparently right answers can be the devil to explain why they are wrong - especially when those who need the explanation are limited in reasoning skills or simply dishonest evaders. (BTW I have ceased responding to Enik - twice round the same circling evasion is my limit. And Tony ran away from the counter arguments I raised - I think I allowed him three or four circles - I must have been in a generous mood.)

...It's the same way with pretty much everything that the AE911T morons push as evidence for CD: Freefall, symmetry, footprint, pulverization, lateral ejections, molten iron, thermite in the dust... Al these claims are dubious, some outright false, but even if they were all true, they simply are not evidence for CD and/or against accidental collapse from fires.
Correct.

...and the main reason I suspect for the common truther evasion tactic of focussing on a single anomalous detail totally out of context and pretending that it, standing alone, proves CD.
 
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