• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Respecting Christians

Mehdimentio said:
I PERSONALLY find it very hard to respect the intellect of anyone who devote themselves to a doctrine as absurd as Christianity. That does by no means justify personal insults from my part, though. I am aware.
Click to expand...

Not a fan of Tertullian then?
Crucifixus est Dei Filius, non pudet, quia pudendum est;et mortuus est Dei Filius, prorsus credibile est, quia ineptum est;et sepultus resurrexit, certum est, quia impossibile.or as it is usually paraphrased Credo quia absurdum - "I believe because it is absurd." I always rather liked that, though it is not quite my position. :)


cj x
 
Mycroft said:
To say that's where the conversation needs to start assumes they need to argue it out and one of them needs to change their mind.

But why? If they're both comfortable in their belief systems, why can't they leave it at that?
Click to expand...
Just supposing for a moment that I accept the premise that comfort is the deciding factor here...

Consider what Christianity says: that if you don't fall for its tale of bloody sacrifices, then you not only will but SHOULD be tortured forever. Consider what "forever" means compared to, for example, a thousand years... or a trillion years... or instead of that many years, that many times the entire history of this universe not just past but also future... or instead of a trillion, make it 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999,999,999,999,999... squared... or cubed... or to the power of itself. It's still a finite number, so it's essentially nothing compared to infinity, which is the amount of time that any non-Christian is supposed to spend in agony more horrific than anything that could be imagined from our Earthly experience, worse than any human has ever had to live through for even an instant in this life.

And that's not even just an unfortunate fate that they would wish for us to avoid. It's what should be done to us, because we deserve it. That's the Christian idea of justice. That's utterly psychotic.

Anyone who is "comfortable" with a God who works like that (nevermind proclaiming love for such an immeasurably, unimaginably, incomprehensibly vicious monster) is utterly psychotic. So, anyone who actually believes in such a God must be either psychotic or not comfortable with it. Since most of us never interact much with utterly psychotic individuals, it's usually a pretty safe bet that, unlike what your question supposes as a premise, the people we meet who call themselves "Christians" are in fact not utterly psychotic, and thus NOT at all comfortable with Christianity's God and that God's behavior and attitude. For those who actually buy it, getting them to see that it's all fiction would be freeing them from living in a constant nightmare.

For those who don't buy it but inaccurately call themselves "Christians" anyway, the self-misidentification is and indication that they're not comfortable with admitting what they really think, so again the premise of your question doesn't apply and there's no reason not to try to get them to see that it's OK to admit what they really think.

BStrong said:
I have no problem treating people with respect, as long as they treat me likewise.
Click to expand...
Thinking that someone deserves eternal torture is not respectful.
 
Delvo said:
Just supposing for a moment that I accept the premise that comfort is the deciding factor here...

<snip>

Thinking that someone deserves eternal torture is not respectful.
Click to expand...

So I get it that you don't like Christianity. What I don't get is why you think it's a good use of your time to try to talk one of them out of it.

Your life, your choice, I suppose. I got better things to do with my time.
 
Delvo said:
Thinking that someone deserves eternal torture is not respectful.
Click to expand...

You could ask them what they think. But obviously deriving it from first principles is more reliable. After all, the Bible is infallible.
 
Soapy Sam said:
Seems to me the important question about any systematic belief is not "Is it sincere?", but "Is it right?"

Does anyone here have any testable data to support the factual correctness of any religious belief system?

And if not, then why do they go on believing it?

I don't feel respect is earned by simply believing nonsense.
I'm unsure whether having a detailed knowledge of theology and still believing it would merit more respect, or less, than someone who merely accepted a smidgin of nonsense in infancy and still believes it. Not much in either case, methinks.

But someone who merits no repect whatever for his religious belief may deserve respect for any of a myriad other reasons.
I don't respect Dietrich Bonhoeffer because he was a Lutheran theologian. I respect him because he was a brave man.
Click to expand...

That would make the important question not "Is it right?" but "Is it brave?"
 
westprog said:
You could ask them what they think. But obviously deriving it from first principles is more reliable. After all, the Bible is infallible.
Click to expand...
The odds are pretty good they belong to a sect supporting the Athanasian Creed, which does use the words "ignem aeternum" in a fairly no-nonsense way. Failing that the Apostle's and Nicene Creed still imply it, and from what I hear coming out of Westboro and the Vatican, the concept of eternal damnation isn't altogether outmoded.

If the person you're arguing with is using a nonstandard definition of terms, it's up to them to make this sufficiently known. The onus should not be on the rest of the world to determine exactly what wrinkles each person has ironed into their use of "Christian." It's a common term with a common meaning, part of which is the acceptance of everlasting torment.
 
And I'd have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you pesky atheists!

Delvo said:
Consider what Christianity says: that if you don't fall for its tale of bloody sacrifices, then you not only will but SHOULD be tortured forever.
Click to expand...

I eagerly await seeing you in HELLFIRE! :D

hellfire1.jpg


It's in West Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. I'll buy. Of course I'm An Anglican so you may face the stark choice of "cake or death?" However this would be an ecumenical matter; so I will invite along Cardinal Biggles, and while I provide the cake he can provide the nice cup of tea and the comfy chair.

When you free for a bit of Hellfire with this psychotic Christian? :)


Delvo said:
For those who don't buy it but inaccurately call themselves "Christians" anyway, the self-misidentification is and indication that they're not comfortable with admitting what they really think, so again the premise of your question doesn't apply and there's no reason not to try to get them to see that it's OK to admit what they really think.
Click to expand...

I'll freely discuss what I really think on this issue if you want, but you seem to have far more certitude about what constitutes my faith than I do. Still I guess if you have the time you can endure the moderately hellish torment of my theological dribblings...

Seriously though, it's hard to know what one means by saying I am a Christian, that I admit. It's also hard to know what is meant when someone says they are an atheist -- all I can tell is the person does not believe in Gods/Goddesses. Some atheists were virulently anti-science (very common in Eastern European late 19th century/early 20th century atheism), and some Idealist not Materialist, while others, rather a lot, are committed Spiritualists who believe in life after death but deny any divinity. Any label people apply is subject to misinterpretation. Still I'll happily be upfront about my beliefs, but hellfire and eternal torment doesn't come in to it I'm afraid

cj x
 
cj.23 said:
It's also hard to know what is meant when someone says they are an atheist -- all I can tell is the person does not believe in Gods/Goddesses.
Click to expand...

How is the meaning of atheist unclear?

Do you also think it is hard to know what is meant when someone says they don't like fish because it doesn't give you in depth insight into their personality?
 
mutile said:
How is the meaning of atheist unclear?

Do you also think it is hard to know what is meant when someone says they don't like fish because it doesn't give you in depth insight into their personality?
Click to expand...


Exactly like that. It tells you nothing beyond one belief. Ditto someone saying they are a Christian; or they don't like fish. You can't generalize from it, or shouldn't if wise :)

cj x
 
cj.23 said:
You don't believe in Gods or Godesses as I said. :) I'm a Christian - what does that tell you about me? :)
Click to expand...

Only that you believe in one more god than me. Why do you believe in that god and none of the others? You are a Hindu atheist, do you realize that?
 
Last edited:
dafydd said:
Only that you believe in one more god than me. Why do you believe in that god and none of the others? You are a Hindu atheist, do you realize that?
Click to expand...

I believe in Vishnu. I never said I didn't. I also believe in Zeus. There is a thread somewhere where I talk about it in some depth. I'll find the link if it will amuse? However we are possibly drifting off topic.

EDIT: LINK HERE http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4328617#post4328617

My point is people characterize unfairly atheists as all being the same. They most certainly are not. Neither are Christians. The labels tell us nothing beyond very specific, rather uninteresting piece of information. As I point out, there are or were violently anti-science atheists, and spiritualist atheists and PZ , Harris and Dawkins are hardly the same. Nor are Christians all the same: our beliefs may vary. Respecting or disrepecting the group falls victim to the fallacy that all X are Y: rarely true outside of mathematics in my experience.

cj x
 
Last edited:
cj.23, I'm glad you took the "retarded" comment in good humour! For me, however, I wouldn't call you retarded at all. I just have difficulty wrapping my head around the concept that anyone over the age of ten or so believe in supernatural (for lack of a better word) entities when it is, at the same time, perfectly apparent that those same people have long put away belief in Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, the Boogeyman, and other such things that eventually children put away.

For many like me it is the same. Believing in god/s or whatever sort of fairy-type creature is simply illogical and sometimes incomprehensible. The idea of accepting such a belief is so alien to me that truthfully, I cannot understand it. During a couple of decades when I TRIED to accept belief, I failed dismally. I just could not do it.

It's good to see you again, tho! I've missed you! Uh, if you are the one who used to post about haunted houses in England? If I've mistaken you for another poster with a similar name, sorry! *sheepish*
 
Hey Minarvia how you doing? I am indeed that awful woo CJ! :) I have been writing more on spooks actually, and kicking around with Sceptics In The pub here, and generally having fun. I was absent from forums for a year or so owing to pressures of work and looking after an elderly neighbour, but I have a very intensive writing project so I'm back again.

I completely agree: to me atheism, or perhaps agnosticism, is a rational default. I don't mean intellectually - I'm not clever enough to make a philosophical case or know one way or the other if that is so, but I grew up completely unconvinced by supernatural claims, and was a loud and outspoken atheist as a child. I eventually came to doubt my doubts -- but I could no more have chosen to believe in a Goddess or God as a child as I could have chosen to disbelieve in my own existence or gravity.

I still don't think we choose these things: it's just how we see the universe. As such to get stressed about others different perceptions seems a waste of time. I'll stand firm against persecution, and stand firm for freedom of conscience, but heck I don't expect anyone to care much what I believe or don't.

So what you up to these days? I'm glad to be back, it's always fun here. Best wishes from the ridiculously hot valleys of south west England!

cj x
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom