Founder of Sea Shepherd Arrested in Germany

[WildCat]

You should know full well the sale of fish has almost nothing to do with being commercial.

I don't know what country you live in, but in every state of the USA it's very illegal to sell fish and game you caught unless you are a licensed commercial fisherman/hunter.

 

[Checkmite]

Because it's a very simple concept. Sport or recreational fishing is based on capacity. When the capacity with very basic gear is exceeded they impose limits. Once your capacity is greater than what would reasonably considered a "personal" amount they consider you a commercial fisherman. This is regardless of whether or not you sell the catch.

I'm not acting as if it's the same everywhere, in fact I clearly stated otherwise up thread. Why lie about it?

You are acting as if it's the same everywhere. I mean, here you are providing definitions of "commercial" versus "sport" fishing which seem to be based on how you think things work in the United States, as if they do or should apply to Japanese vessels fishing nowhere near the United States.

All that matters is what the Japanese define commercial fishing to be and whether this definition under their regulations applies to permitted "research" expeditions.

As for the scale of whaling being a problem; I think it essentially makes this a non-issue. Overfishing used to be the problem with whaling; now since basically only the Japanese and Bob are doing it, and the Japanese have self-imposed a limit of 1000 which they never come close to, I would say that the current scale of whaling is not a big concern.

 

[WildCat]

But in the next shot, the sport fisherman are throwing them all back

Maybe with a bigger hook in them...

 

[Wildy]

Because it's a very simple concept. Sport or recreational fishing is based on capacity. When the capacity with very basic gear is exceeded they impose limits. Once your capacity is greater than what would reasonably considered a "personal" amount they consider you a commercial fisherman. This is regardless of whether or not you sell the catch.
This is a reasonable way of dismissing the claim that these "traditional" hunts are the same thing as what the Japanese are doing with these "research" vessels. There's sport fishing and there's commercial fishing.

I'm not acting as if it's the same everywhere, in fact I clearly stated otherwise up thread. Why lie about it?

And yet we see right here two very contradictory paragraphs. In the first you're arguing from a definition that is consistent throughout the world while in the second you're trying to claim that you're not.

And if you accept that a "personal amount" is different and based on local factors you can't just dismiss Indonesian whaling by comparing it to Japanese whaling. You would have to determine what a "personal amount" would be in Indonesia and then comparing that amount to what is actually being caught.

No, I'm saying I'm limited by my technology. I asked if you could keep it to one paragraph so I could respond but you can't do that obviously.

That's not my problem. I gave a perfectly workable example of responding that you could have used using numbers to show the bits you were responding to but you just ignored it. If you don't want to make the effort to make yourself understood don't complain when people don't understand you.

It's called causality. The fact that the Japanese are using some 300 foot floating processing plant inherently means they're operating commercially.

We all understand that your definition of "commercial whaling" seems to rely on the presence of a factory ship.

It's a lot more of a grey area when your boat is smaller than the whale and you're using sharp sticks instead of an air powered cannon.

Unless you're Furcifer: Arbiter of Commerciality^TM where it isn't a grey area based on a retarded definition of "commercial whaling".

Such as what?

What facilities have to be on a ship to make it commercial?

I can't see that you're responding to and can't open another window to find out. Not that it matters, I've made my point in the above paragraphs.

Again: Not. My. Problem.

And if you are using the forum's mobile site you're also lying.

I haven't waffled, I've maintained the same thing from the beginning; it's absurd to compare these traditional hunts to commercial whaling simply because they may sell or trade the catch afterwards. To say "it's just a matter of scale" when clearly the problem with whaling is the scale on which it was done is moronic.

Read my post again for comprehension to understand why I said you were waffling. I'll give you a hint: It's got nothing to do with the rest of the paragraph you wrote. Perhaps you should also find the post where I first spoke about "scale" and re-read that for comprehension as well since it's got nothing to do with what you wrote here.

 

[Wildy]

I don't know what country you live in, but in every state of the USA it's very illegal to sell fish and game you caught unless you are a licensed commercial fisherman/hunter.

He lives in the traditional whaling country of Canada.

 

[Ziggurat]

So in other words, the accomplishments of Sea Shepherds' whale-saving efforts include:

1. Japan doubling its whaling limit, and

2. Japan's average yearly take remaining about the same for almost the last decade.

Nice job, guys. Really inspiring.

Don't forget they got a TV show out of it. That's got to be worth something, right?

 

[tyr_13]

As for the scale of whaling being a problem; I think it essentially makes this a non-issue. Overfishing used to be the problem with whaling; now since basically only the Japanese and Bob are doing it, and the Japanese have self-imposed a limit of 1000 which they never come close to, I would say that the current scale of whaling is not a big concern.

From an ecological perspective. These arguments seem to be stemming from a moral perspective as mink whales as having individual moral agency and worth. It would be like telling someone that organized lynchings of black people aren't a big concern because the National Order of Tree and Rope put a limit of 1000 a year, which they normally only take 600. It isn't going to convince them.

 

[Checkmite]

From an ecological perspective. These arguments seem to be stemming from a moral perspective as mink whales as having individual moral agency and worth. It would be like telling someone that organized lynchings of black people aren't a big concern because the National Order of Tree and Rope put a limit of 1000 a year, which they normally only take 600. It isn't going to convince them.

That would be a different argument. I could believe that a moral objection underlies the issue (after all it's essentially why I don't think whaling is right) but Furcifer is arguing for why natives spearing whales is acceptable and what the Japanese do is not. His arguments to that end are not based on moral reasoning and are easily refuted.

A moral objection to whaling shouldn't be able to justify "traditional subsistence whaling", either.

 

[tyr_13]

Fair points.

 

[Furcifer]

You are acting as if it's the same everywhere. I mean, here you are providing definitions of "commercial" versus "sport" fishing which seem to be based on how you think things work in the United States, as if they do or should apply to Japanese vessels fishing nowhere near the United States.

All that matters is what the Japanese define commercial fishing to be and whether this definition under their regulations applies to permitted "research" expeditions.

As for the scale of whaling being a problem; I think it essentially makes this a non-issue. Overfishing used to be the problem with whaling; now since basically only the Japanese and Bob are doing it, and the Japanese have self-imposed a limit of 1000 which they never come close to, I would say that the current scale of whaling is not a big concern.

I'm acting as if there are sport fishermen and there are commercial fishermen and the actual sale of fish has very little to do with it. It's not the same everywhere, but it is very universal.

Perhaps, or perhaps allowing the Japanese to do what they want will only encourage a return to commercial whaling which has been shown to be unsustainable in the past.

 

[Furcifer]

I don't know what country you live in, but in every state of the USA it's very illegal to sell fish and game you caught unless you are a licensed commercial fisherman/hunter.

I believe you mean sold for resale. I've seen tourists in North Caronlina and Florida buy fish from guys off the docks or the boats. If you catch a tuna chances are you're going to sell it. And I don't know of anyone ever charged for trading a case of beer for some deer steaks.
Selling to a restaurant or grocery store is another matter. If the laws do prohibit any trade or sale they aren't enforced. Not like the laws are enforced when it comes to limits.

 

[Furcifer]

Unless you're Furcifer: Arbiter of Commerciality^TM where it isn't a grey area based on a retarded definition of "commercial whaling".

What's retarded is comparing the Indonesian whaling to the Japanese and not being able to see the obvious difference. I don't see how anyone can be this intellectually dishonest.
If your buddy offered to fly you to where you were going for gas money would you say he was operating a commercial airline?

 

[Damien Evans]

What's retarded is comparing the Indonesian whaling to the Japanese and not being able to see the obvious difference. I don't see how anyone can be this intellectually dishonest.
If your buddy offered to fly you to where you were going for gas money would you say he was operating a commercial airline?

 

[Furcifer]

[qimg]http://static.fjcdn.com/comments/THE+_9ccd39c48b0a4db76e8b49a4996698fa.jpg[/qimg]

The internet must be conspiring against you, I assume it's an image but all I see is a white box with a red X. What's fjcdn.com?

 

[Furcifer]

I must have hit a nerve. This is a surprisingly simple concept; there's sport fishing and there's commercial fishing. What the Japanese are doing is commercial fishing, the "traditional" hunts are almost totally removed from commercial fishing. Trying to equate the two by suggesting some Indonesian trading his share of blubber for some Duracell batteries and an iPod makes it "commercial" is a laughable.
What the Japanese are doing is wrong. Period. What Watson is doing might be wrong but it really pales in comparison. Cheer on the whalers all you like but the fact is the Japanese should be ashamed of what they are doing under the guise of research.

 

[theprestige]

What's retarded is comparing the Indonesian whaling to the Japanese and not being able to see the obvious difference.

The question isn't whether there are obvious differences between Indonesian and Japanese whaling.

The question is

• what differences do you actually think are significant;
• are they really as significant as you think they are, in the way that you think they are; and
• can you form a coherent argument based on the differences you think are signifiant?

 

[tomwaits]

The question isn't whether there are obvious differences between Indonesian and Japanese whaling.

The question is

• what differences do you actually think are significant;
• are they really as significant as you think they are, in the way that you think they are; and
• can you form a coherent argument based on the differences you think are signifiant?

I'm sorry, I just kind of jumped in here at the last minute, but WTF does Indonesia have to do with it? So what if Indonesia is engaging in commercial whaling? I though the thread was about Paul Watson and Japanese whaling.

 

[Checkmite]

It's a logical flow of conversation; Paul Watson's supporters claim his reckless and dangerous tactics are justified because whaling is just that wrong that such tactics are okay - except in the case of so-called "primitive" whaling, which is permissible because the products of whales harvested by such whalers are only sold sometimes, which...makes the harvested whales feel better about being killed? I don't know.

 

[SUSpilot]

What's retarded is comparing the Indonesian whaling to the Japanese and not being able to see the obvious difference. I don't see how anyone can be this intellectually dishonest.
If your buddy offered to fly you to where you were going for gas money would you say he was operating a commercial airline?

A bit off-topic, but since you brought it up: under the regulations, the FAA considers that a commercial operation. A pilot that does that without the proper certificates and operations manuals is in a lot of trouble if caught.

 

[Furcifer]

It's a logical flow of conversation; Paul Watson's supporters claim his reckless and dangerous tactics are justified because whaling is just that wrong that such tactics are okay - except in the case of so-called "primitive" whaling, which is permissible because the products of whales harvested by such whalers are only sold sometimes, which...makes the harvested whales feel better about being killed? I don't know.

No, what the Japanese are doing under the guise of "research" is just as primitive. Let's face it, if you're eating whale meat you're missing a chromosome or two.

eta: unless the alternative is starving to death of course.