Split Thread Legislation to restrict access to abortion and contraception

[RandFan]

And crime-enablers, AKA gun-control leftists.

Tell me about it. There were 1100 pieces of gun control legislation in 2011 alone. Oh wait, that was legislation to restrict women's access to abortion and contraception. Bad example. Never mind.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Tell me about it. There were 1100 pieces of gun control legislation in 2011 alone. Oh wait, that was legislation to restrict women's access to abortion and contraception. Bad example. Never mind.

Good to see a lot of states heading in the right direction.

 

[RandFan]

Good to see a lot of states heading in the right direction.

Freedom only counts if it comports with your ideology I suppose. Never mind the science. If someone thinks conception magically turns two cells into a human being then that's reason enough to infringe on rights. Never mind that contraception prevents fertilization or implantation in most cases and these idiots want to make that illegal also. The right love big govt when it comes to women having sex.

ETA: My argument is a red herring and OT. I won't engage in the argument further.

 

[AvalonXQ]

The right love big govt when it comes to women having sex.

This has nothing to do with who's having sex and everything to do with the helpless human beings that result.

I guess life only matters if it's convenient for your power base.

 

[RandFan]

This has nothing to do with who's having sex and everything to do with the helpless human beings that result.

I guess life only matters if it's convenient for your power base.

ETA: My argument is a red herring and OT. I won't engage in the argument further.

You are demonstrably wrong and I gave you perfect reasoning for why you are wrong. However, it would be inappropriate for us to continue the discussion so I won't respond here.

I'll ask the moderators to start a new thread. My apologies for having started this.

 

[AvalonXQ]

You are demonstrably wrong and I gave you perfect reasoning for why you are wrong.

Every one of those laws applies only in the case of pregnancy. Clearly it's about human life, not about sex.

 

[RandFan]

Every one of those laws applies only in the case of pregnancy. Clearly it's about human life, not about sex.

No. You are wrong on two accounts and I can demonstrate both scientifically. But you need to wait until they start the thread.

 

[RandFan]

Every one of those laws applies only in the case of pregnancy. Clearly it's about human life, not about sex.

You are conflating "human life" and "human being". This is a common tactic of "right-to-lifers" as human sperm is human life and none of them are trying to pass bills to protect human sperm.

1. Sperm is human life.
2. A sperm is not a human being.
3. Ovum is human life.
4. An ovum is not a human being.
5. Conception does not magically turn sperm and ovum into a human being.
6. Blastocysts, zygotes and first trimester fetuses have no brain activity and are not by any scientific basis human beings.
7. A person in a persistent vegetative state can be removed from life support.
8. A person in a persistent vegetative state has far more human features than a blastocyst which have none, zero, zip, nada.
9. I will concede that there exists legislators that are ignorant of science and they honestly believe that a fertilized ovum is a human being and therefore their intent, is in part, to protect human beings.
   They are sincerely wrong.
10. Many right-to-lifers also stress abstinence only education and insist that unwanted pregnancies are the fault of the woman having failed to act responsibly. This fact and their fixation with fornication demonstrate that for many this has very much to do with sex.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Blastocysts, zygotes and first trimester fetuses have no brain activity and are not by any scientific basis human beings.

Let's focus in on this statement here.

I was under the impression (I still am, in fact), that "human being" was not a scientific term, but I'm willing to be shown otherwise.

What do you claim to be the scientific definition of "human being"? Please include appropriate citations.

 

[RandFan]

Let's focus in on this statement here.

I was under the impression (I still am, in fact), that "human being" was not a scientific term, but I'm willing to be shown otherwise.

What do you claim to be the scientific definition of "human being"? Please include appropriate citations.

Let's accept your premise for sake of argument. A human being isn't a scientific term. Now, before we move on let me ask you a question.

Do you believe that sperm is human life?

 

[AvalonXQ]

Let's accept your premise for sake of argument. A human being isn't a scientific term. Now, before we move on let me ask you a question.

Do you believe that sperm is human life?

No, a sperm cell is not a human life. A zygote is.

This is not just my definition; it is the medical definition as well.

 

[DavidJames]

I guess life only matters if it's convenient for your power base.

wow!

That's about all I can say about such crap. People actually believe it.

wow!

 

[AvalonXQ]

Freedom only counts if it comports with your ideology I suppose.

wow!

That's about all I can say about such crap. People actually believe it.

wow!

 

[RandFan]

No, a sperm cell is not a human life. A zygote is.

Hold on. You are getting way ahead of yourself. I didn't say "a human life". I guess this is going to be like pulling teeth. Avalon, as I said before, you are equating "a human life" with "human life" The letter "a" at the beginning of the term is critical here.

• Are sperm cells alive?
• You understand that sperm from humans can only be human right?

This is not just my definition; it is the medical definition as well.

I can't find the definition. Could you pull quote it for me. Or provide the best quote you think makes your case?

 

[AvalonXQ]

Are sperm cells alive?

No. Sperm cells are not distinct organisms and therefore not "alive", any more than skin cells or neurons are "alive".

 

[RandFan]

No. Sperm cells are not distinct organisms and therefore not "alive", any more than skin cells or neurons are "alive".

Citation for the notion that non distinct organisms are not life?

Life

Noun

the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.

• Skin cells and neurons and utilize metabolism for energy and can reproduce.
• Sperm is medically defined as life.

Question, what labels would you use to differentiate a sperm cell that is ambulatory and can metabolize energy from a sperm cell that is inert and incapable of motion and metabolization?

 

[AvalonXQ]

Citation for the notion that non distinct organisms are not life?

• Skin cells and neurons and utilize metabolism for energy and can reproduce.
• Sperm is medically defined as life.

Question, what labels would you use to differentiate a sperm cell that is ambulatory and can metabolize energy from a sperm cell that is inert and incapable of motion and metabolization?

No, you're correct. Individual cells within an organism are referred to as "alive", particularly to distinguish them from "dead" cells.

However, sperm are not living organisms; zygotes are.

 

[RandFan]

No, you're correct. Individual cells within an organism are referred to as "alive", particularly to distinguish them from "dead" cells.

However, sperm are not living organisms; zygotes are.

So, just to make certain that I understand you.

• Sperm are living cells.
• Sperm are haploid and therefore do not meet one of the requirements for organisms.

Okay, so, would you agree that skin cells and neurons being diploid, reproducing cells and capable of metabolism meet the definition for living organisms?

 

[Shalamar]

If the right is so dead-set for forcing women to carry the fetus that is conceived, why don't they also support extensive sex and contraception education to help reduce the numbers of unwanted pregnancies?

Otherwise it just seems that they don't want to teach young people about sex, and then force them to pay for their ignorance.

 

[Dessi]

In this thread:

However, sperm are not living organisms; zygotes are.

But in another thread:

The dogs consumed in Asian contries are not pet breeds; they're food breeds. It's an entirely different animal. It's raised and treated as livestock, and it's eaten as livestock. I hope to try dog someday.

Unless you think zygotes are more lifelike than dogs, I'd say you have a glaring contradiction in your ethic which makes your objection to killing "living organisms" completely untenable.