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WTC7 and the girder walk-off between column 79 and 44

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"Fly off or topple" ? This is getting surreal. The perps were trying to keep things tidy by stopping the structure below "flying off"? Wow, just .....

[qimg]http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg274/sap-guy/WTC7Epenthouseclearphoto.jpg[/qimg]

It's a standard problem with penthouses. They're always less dense than air, I don't know why they haven't fixed it yet.
 
50 tons of equipment in that penthouse would have easily caused the building to roll to the north after the lower columns let go between the 7th and 14th floors.

Unsubstantiated, incorrect and frankly laughable assertion.

Bringing it down well inside the building significantly cuts down the moment arm between the penthouse equipment and the center of mass of the upper section.

"Rauw-Sa!!"

Just like Gabby Johnson said, that's some true Engineering Gibberish, right there!!
 
So as soon as I provide,

"Soon" in this case meaning two years.

when asked my opinion, an identified as such speculative but very plausible

Stop... just, stop.

Here is more of why you don't know jack about explosives.

To destroy something with explosives, your explosives need to be stronger than what your are trying to destroy. If you want to contain the explosives to a certain area, you need to tamp them with something stronger than the explosives. So you're trying to tear through a big ass steel girder inside a skyscraper with a bomb that is encased in something several times stronger than the girder and is much thicker and heavier than the girder as a necessary consequence.

Already, you can see where this is going to become problematic for your sooper sekrit ninja demolition team (or at least we can see it).

So how much tamping is needed?

Well, this is the wikipedia description of the USAF/USN/USMC Mk 84 bomb:

The Mark 84 has a nominal weight of 2,000 lb, but its actual weight varies depending on its fin, fuze options, and retardation configuration, from 1,972 to 2,083 lb. It is a streamlined steel casing filled with 945 lb of Tritonal high explosive.

The standard air to ground weapon of the US military is more steel than explosive, each one dropped contains enough steel to build a couple of pickup trucks.

But this steel does not weaken or contain the blast, in fact it strengthens it. The steel shell holds the mass of explosives together until all or most of it has fully reacted. it also contains the blast wave until it is strong enough to force its way through the shell.

Put simply, Tony, if you want to tamp the blast in such a way as to create the effect you described, where the blast is improbably focused in a single direction, you are going to need a casing that is many times the weight of the explosive. To get enough of a tamping effect, your initial layers are going to make the blast stronger. Only after adding a lot of tamping are you going to start making the blast weaker and then you will need to add a great deal more to nullify it completely.

My guess is, that we are talking about a big ass concrete block with outer layers of steel and kevlar to prevent spalling of the concrete upon detonation.

But wait... it gets worse!

You'll remember Tony a few years ago, you co-wrote an article with Steven Jones, Neils Harrit and a few others. Jones and Harritt were unable to get it published in any peer-reviewed journal so they settled on an internet message board in Pakistan with a 600 dollar posting fee. Except they were unable to meet even their lax standards so they went behind the editor-in-chiefs back to get it posted (when the E-in-C found out, she resigned her position and blew the whistle on Jones and Harritt).

Despite the attempt to defraud the Pakistani website, Russia Today, who never met a piece of anti-American or anti-semitic propaganda pornography that they weren't willing to publish, immediately called in Neils Harritt for an interview.

Here is what he said:

Niels Harrit: I personally am certain that conventional explosives were used too, in abundance.

RT: When you say “in abundance,” how much do you mean?

Niels Harrit: Tons! Hundreds of tons! Many, many, many tons!

How many hundreds of tons was Harritt referring to? 200? 500? 700?

Either way, for every ton of high explosive your theory calls for, you will need several tons of concrete and steel to encase the explosives and prevent the kind of blast effects that would give the whole plot away.

Your ninja demo team would have been running about with tens of thousands of explosive charges about the size of Toblerone bars, each one encased in concrete blocks the size of washing machines tearing apart drywall and building fixtures to couple these monstrosities to the frames of the busiest office buildings in the world hoping that no one would notice and report these bizarre goings on the day after the worst terror attack in history, all so that you can claim that the windows wouldn't have been broken by the blasts.

Got an explanation for this, Tony?
 
The above is a perfect example of what I am saying in reference to some posters not feeling obliged to provide a reasonable level of logic to support their claims.

I think the anomaly of the east penthouse collapse being explained by the series of implausible events, and in some cases impossible (as has been shown in this thread), claimed in the NIST report on WTC 7 violates Occam's razor much more than what I have mentioned here.

Yeah, not so much Tony. You're claiming that the perps decided to bring the EMP into the building before the rest of the building collapsed, to save the other buildings surrounding it from further damage.

Makes perfect sense right?

Nope. In fact, not at all. Did you see the damage to the surrounding buildings from not only 1&2 WTC, but also from 7WTC's collapse?

Fitterman hall ring a bell?

How about The Verizon Building?

US Post Office building?

Any of those ring a bell to you Tony?
 
The NIST report states that the east penthouse was a shelter for heavy equipment. They don't say how heavy.

What can be said is that it was a heavy eccentric load and would cause a propensity for a topple once the columns below let go. Additionally, it would have to initially cause an out of plumbness when the columns below let go and that would become a sort of p-delta effect causing more moment arm and increasing the propensity for a rotation about the center of gravity of the falling mass or what is colloquially called a topple.

Well, how heavy would they have to be and with what force would they have to be propelled to cause all or part of the freaking World Trade Center tower to "topple," somehow shifting its center of gravity without collapsing straight down due to gravity once the structure was compromised? You're the engineer, tell me. You theorize this is part of the motive for blowing the penthouse "down into the building." Go. Do the math.

ETA - your tendency to edit posts is annoying - "eccentric loads" and "propensity for a topple" are not math when you are discussing a certain 47 story building.

50 tons of equipment in that penthouse would have easily caused the building to roll to the north after the lower columns let go between the 7th and 14th floors. Bringing it down well inside the building significantly cuts down the moment arm between the penthouse equipment and the center of mass of the upper section.
How many tons? Please draw us a force diagram.

The lack of logic by some posters in supporting their claims is much more annoying to me.
Indeed.


Tony, you are not showing your work. Why is that?
 
The explosive only needs to be enough to drive the molten iron through the cut.

Wrong again, Tony.

In military and demolition applications the ability of a shaped charge to penetrate armor varies directly with the density of the metal used to line the concave portion of the charge. Copper is denser than iron and is preferred because it penetrates deeper with less energy.

You really should look this stuff up before shooting your mouth off, you're just humiliating yourself.
 
...
My guess is, that we are talking about a big ass concrete block with outer layers of steel and kevlar to prevent spalling of the concrete upon detonation....

Which would survive the collapse in some conspicuous form, even if the workers failed to notice something as big a photocopier attached to a column.

I can't wait to see how Tony will respond to this.
 
Which would survive the collapse in some conspicuous form, even if the workers failed to notice something as big a photocopier attached to a column.

I can't wait to see how Tony will respond to this.

I hope that's just an expression. Given his previous behavior, he won't until 2014.
 
A user nicknamed Enik has used some serious simulation software to model the behaviour of column 79 and the girder and floor, and this is what he found after refining detailed propertied of the assembly:

Enik said:
It doesn’t look good. As can be seen, the girder walked off the seat on Column 79.

I haven't followed the details, but perhaps the posters here in this thread are interested.
 
A user nicknamed Enik has used some serious simulation software to model the behaviour of column 79 and the girder and floor, and this is what he found after refining detailed propertied of the assembly:



I haven't followed the details, but perhaps the posters here in this thread are interested.
Ummm... any better reference, or are we supposed to google for 'Enik it doesn't look good'? :D
 
A user nicknamed Enik has used some serious simulation software to model the behaviour of column 79 and the girder and floor, and this is what he found after refining detailed propertied of the assembly:



I haven't followed the details, but perhaps the posters here in this thread are interested.

So why post it? My only comments in this entire thread are relegated to asking what proof exists that this walk off happened. If this happened what proof is there that the temperature of the girder and beams ever reached what NIST used as an input?

I'm not scientist but it must be a lot easier to get the results you want when you don't have to rely on any physical evidence for your inputs.

Oystein, if you're so impressed with these findings why didn't you answer the posts that replied just after Enik's?
 
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I'm not scientist but it must be a lot easier to get the results you want when you don't have to rely on any physical evidence for your inputs.
... ?
They used a lot of facts; 911 truth does not use or understand facts.

Better not enter any building built today. They use modeling to design. They don't build a full scale WTC tower, they use math, physics and engineering to design and build it - models. Like NIST used to find a probable cause. You might not understand what probable means. With know properties of office fires and steel, you can model WTC 7.
...
... don't have to rely on any physical evidence
... ?
At least there is a video of the crime; 10 terrorists hit the WTC towers with planes they took by killing, and then the murdered people in NYC.

Many videos were used to see the interior failed - video evidence supports the NIST probable cause. What is your probable cause?
 
I like Enik, but it appears that whole forum has been drinking the Kool-Aid. They're kidding themselves into thinking they're doing professional analyses. None of them use their real names. Look at SanderO's "conceptually possible!" explanation of the squibs in the Twin Towers. :eye-poppi

I would guess that Enik's experiment shows that, using NIST's inputs and NIST's limited assumptions, he was able to replicate NIST's results.
 
I like Enik, but it appears that whole forum has been drinking the Kool-Aid. They're kidding themselves into thinking they're doing professional analyses. None of them use their real names. Look at SanderO's "conceptually possible!" explanation of the squibs in the Twin Towers. :eye-poppi

I would guess that Enik's experiment shows that, using NIST's inputs and NIST's limited assumptions, he was able to replicate NIST's results.
Which means the WTC building collapsed due to gravity after fires. I did not know you were debunking the crazy explosives and themite claims. Good job - your bedunking ring is in the mail. Never thought you would join bedunkers even though everything you presented to date has refuted 911 truth and exposed their claims as nonsense.

Please list NIST's limited assumptions.
Please list NIST's inputs.
 
I like Enik, but it appears that whole forum has been drinking the Kool-Aid. They're kidding themselves into thinking they're doing professional analyses. None of them use their real names. Look at SanderO's "conceptually possible!" explanation of the squibs in the Twin Towers. :eye-poppi

I would guess that Enik's experiment shows that, using NIST's inputs and NIST's limited assumptions, he was able to replicate NIST's results.

The NIST explanation of WTC7 is little more than "and then WTC7 get hot and fall down." Being able to recreate the NIST explanation deserves a Red Bull.
 
This is funny - 5 replies since my previous post, but I can't see a single one :D
 
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