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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Invisibility as a weapon works well for team Holocaust. They forever ask about millions of non-existent Jewish deportees "If they weren't killed by the Nazi's what happened to them? Where did they go?"

They used their invisibility weapon again in the fifties with a twist. They said there was no Communist problem and that the McCarthy hearings were witch hunts of non-existent subversive communists.

Yes, that is a very typical stupid question.

Such enquire imply that if one do not know the possible destination of the Jews after the war, then the elusive Holocaust story-telling is right and there really were circa 6,000,000 Jews systematically killed in different parts of Europe...
 
Yes, that is a very typical stupid question.

Such enquire imply that if one do not know the possible destination of the Jews after the war, then the elusive Holocaust story-telling is right and there really were circa 6,000,000 Jews systematically killed in different parts of Europe...
No, it's saying that any theory saying those millions weren't killed by Nazis has to account for the disappearance of those millions of people. The best Clay can to is claim they don't exist, without evidence. You seem to have no problem with this.
 
Yes, that is a very typical stupid question.

Such enquire imply that if one do not know the possible destination of the Jews after the war, then the elusive Holocaust story-telling is right and there really were circa 6,000,000 Jews systematically killed in different parts of Europe...

In English (at least in the US), circa is almost always used for dates. As in circa 1995. Here you would use about, around, approximately, etc.

Not meant as a nit pick, just wanted to help. :)
 
Where is the "pseudo-science", LemmyCaution?

The quiz was not my idea, did you noticed that?
I noticed you struggled with basic information, yes. But, on the other hand, no, I didn't think a quiz was your idea, and I really don't understand this post, along with so many others you make.
 
What measurement are you using?

Density, calculated from your claimed figures.

Mass graves are not similar to garbage dumps. Human bodies have strong bone structure and when crammed in burial pits its resist to high quantity of pressure.

Mass graves certainly are similar to garbage dumps. Like garbage, human corpses decompose and leak fluids.

Decomposition in high rate only occurs with bodies not crammed and exposed to open air environment. Human corpses buried and crammed have a low decomposition rate.

This is a handwave.

The first bodies were buried in March 1942, victims from the Lublin and Lwow ghettos. Exhumation to cremate the bodies did not even take place until the end of 1942, more than 9 months later.

Roberto specifically modelled this, and you have yet to discuss that model.

Bodies distributed in 33 burial pits during circa 8 months indicates that a pit was filled and covered at least each 8 days. So there was no condition to a high rate of decomposition.

This ignores the evidence of swelling and falling in the mass graves reported by witnesses. It also ignores the archaeological evidence of layers of corpses sometimes up to 2m thick in the graves which were themselves not much more than 5m deep. Evidence from other camps utilising mass graves suggests that the bottom-most layers were so decomposed that they could hardly be exhumed. All this is discussed in the mass graves chapter.

The "conservative" formula developed by Roberto Muehlenkamp is deceitful

You still don't get it.

Roberto used Bay's model and correlated with the average weights for the height of men in Bay's model. He then used a figure that was lower than the actual average weight of a man of that height. In fact, his figures are very close to one of the 27-year old adult males in Provan's experiment, who was 67 inches tall and weighed 62kg clothed, not 68 inches tall like a 'Vitruvian man' and not 66kg naked like the contemporary average weight for a man 68 inches tall.

So your claim of 'deceit' is actually entirely counterproductive, because Roberto was being conservative. You just shot yourself in the foot, again.

and the estimation of the weight is a sheer exaggeration.

No, it's not.

I disagree since you did not provided any calculation or evidence to support your assertion.

The evidence was already stated: garbage dumps have optimum densities of 0.8 to 1.2 tons per cubic metre. One can easily compare these figures with the figure produced by multiplying the average weight of 'Vitruvian men' by the modelled calculation of 10.7 such 'Vitruvian men' per cubic metre. This produces a density of 0.66 to 0.7 tons/cubic metre.

Those figures are lower than found in garbage dumps.

A further checksum can be generated by taking the total number of Belzec victims and the hypothesised average weight of 34kg, to produce a figure of 14,773.272 tons. Divided by the 21,310 cubic metres of grave capacity, the hypothetical density would thus be 0.693 tons/cubic metre.

Can this be achieved? It is exceeded in garbage dumps routinely. It would be achieved on the basis of Bay's model. Decomposition would certainly help pack the graves more tightly over the course of many months, in all cases after swelling lifted up the pile of bodies over the grave surface before collapsing down again, a phenomenon reported from many other mass graves of animals as well as humans.

Charles A Bay used a hypothetical model.

Yes. So? Hypothetical models are perfectly valid starting points to establish parameters.

His experiment is not based on a physical test like the one did by Charles D Provan.

Yet the results of the hypothetical model and Provan's physical experiments converge perfectly well. Bay's hypothetical model implies a density of 0.66 to 0.7 tons/cubic metre. Dividing this weight by the average weight of a Belzec victim produces a figure of 19.5 bodies per cubic metre instead of 10.7 bodies per cubic metre.

What Roberto did, as should be obvious to any sentient person, is apply a cross-check on this calculation (which operates in only one dimension, weight) by also looking at Provan's experiment, which offers another perspective since it looked specifically at volume.

The two perspectives converge because Provan's experiment proved that 18.2 people (American, healthy, clothed even!) could fit into a cubic metre. It is plain as day that there is not much difference between 18.2 and 19.5. Thus, the one-dimensional calculation using only weight is not nearly as inaccurate as you claim.

Moreover: you yourself used the 0.44 cubic metre dimension of the experiment in your pseudoscientific calculation, yet ignored the patently obvious conclusion that if 8 clothed people (a mix of adults-children-toddler) who are breathing can fit into 0.44 cubic metres, then 18.2 clothed people (also a mix of adults-children-toddlers) who are breathing will fit into a whole cubic metre.

But your calculations ended up producing a different figure, because your equations were designed to obfuscate.

You just repeated the inaccurate formula of Roberto Muehlenkamp:

x = (217000*z)/(327*y)

y = Body Mass (Kg)
z = Burial Pit Volume (m^3)

And you haven't demonstrated that there is actually anything inaccurate in Roberto's simple calculations. Adding xyzs obfuscates what is plain as day from the model and the experiment.

Charles D Provan provided results from a physical experiment, Charles A Bay did not.

Yet the results converge very closely.

The calculation I made respect the proportions of adults, children and a toddler inside Charles D Provan box.

But the proportions of Provan's subjects still produced a density of 18.2 people per cubic metre. Your calculations are clearly wrong.

Roberto Muehlenkamp calculations and you completely ignore this fact:

107 (...) Applying Polish ghetto weights to Provan's test-group members (i.e. 43 kg for each of the three adults and 16 kg for each of the five children), the average weight would be [(3x43)+(5x16)]÷8 = 26.13 kg, and the calculated concentration would be 663.40÷26.13 = 25.39 corpses per cubic meter. This means that, if the age and sex distribution of half-starved Polish ghetto Jews deported to Belzec had been like that of Provan's test group, the 21,310 cubic meters of grave space estimated by Kola could have taken in over 540,000 dead bodies.

LOL. Roberto proceeded on the very rough assumption of two adults (of equal weight) to one child. Provan had 3 adults and 5 children (including one toddler), all being healthy Americans in the 1990s and not starved Polish ghetto Jews of the 1940s. They averaged 33.25kg per person.

If two adult Polish Jews weighed on average 43kg and a child 16kg, as you "accepted" for the purpose of trying to refute the calculation based on 34kg, then if there are three adults and 5 children (which rounds up the toddler), the average weight is indeed no longer 34kg but 26.13kg per person. This is exceedingly simple arithmetic.

And yes, Roberto then proceeds to apply the same single-dimension comparison regarding weight to the hypothetical model to produce an expression of potential, 540,000 bodies in the grave space. Which is more than 100,000 more bodies than needed to be buried, since only 434,508 Jews were deported to Belzec.

Incidentally, the deportees were the subjects of negative selection, since able-bodied Jews were held back in large numbers for forced labour, or succeeded in escaping; one might add that a small minority of healthy young men and women jumped from trains after breaking out, some being shot en route and buried elsewhere and some escaping and either being caught later or actually in rare cases, surviving. So there never were precisely 434,508 Jews buried at Belzec. The ones that were buried, however, were going to be the runtiest and feeblest of all, and thus smaller on average.
 
Yes, that is a very typical stupid question.

Such enquire imply that if one do not know the possible destination of the Jews after the war, then the elusive Holocaust story-telling is right and there really were circa 6,000,000 Jews systematically killed in different parts of Europe...

When deniers are asked to explain the whereabouts of the Jews after deportation and are unable to answer, this counterfactual question simply refutes Holocaust denial, because nobody need take a belief system seriously that cannot even begin to explain such a basic fact as what happened to the Jews, if they were not killed as indicated by a mass of historical evidence.

That mass of historical evidence proves that more than 5 million Jews were killed across Nazi- and Axis-occupied Europe during WWII.

The counterfactual is only introduced because certain nitwits have brayed loudly that the Holocaust never happened.
 
There does seem to be some doubt over his accomplishments. But in any case, decomposing bodies and coal aren't the same thing. Unlike the death camp sondercommando, Stakhanov didn't have to put the coal in the ground first. Stakhanov accomplishments didn't require burning the coal either. But if it had, he would find coal burns easier than corpses.

The productivity of the corpse removers and burners is only part of the process. If they're using mechanical scoops, it would make that end of the job much easier than if they had to do it by hand. The other end of the process is where the amazing feats of productivity occur--removing the bodies from the gas chambers and arranging them in the mass graves to achieve a density far greater than that of any other mass grave. It's extremely demanding physically but it also requires highly developed visual spatial skills and a degree of coordination between workers--a degree of coordination that would need to be developed with a staff that is comprised of people who have been on the job for no more than a couple of weeks.

What measurement are you using?

Mass graves are not similar to garbage dumps. Human bodies have strong bone structure and when crammed in burial pits its resist to high quantity of pressure.


Decomposition in high rate only occurs with bodies not crammed and exposed to open air environment. Human corpses buried and crammed have a low decomposition rate.

Bodies distributed in 33 burial pits during circa 8 months indicates that a pit was filled and covered at least each 8 days. So there was no condition to a high rate of decomposition.



The "conservative" formula developed by Roberto Muehlenkamp is deceitful and the estimation of the weight is a sheer exaggeration.



I disagree since you did not provided any calculation or evidence to support your assertion.

Charles A Bay used a hypothetical model. His experiment is not based on a physical test like the one did by Charles D Provan.

You just repeated the inaccurate formula of Roberto Muehlenkamp:

x = (217000*z)/(327*y)

y = Body Mass (Kg)
z = Burial Pit Volume (m^3)



Charles D Provan provided results from a physical experiment, Charles A Bay did not.



The calculation I made respect the proportions of adults, children and a toddler inside Charles D Provan box.

Roberto Muehlenkamp calculations and you completely ignore this fact:

107 (...) Applying Polish ghetto weights to Provan's test-group members (i.e. 43 kg for each of the three adults and 16 kg for each of the five children), the average weight would be [(3x43)+(5x16)]÷8 = 26.13 kg, and the calculated concentration would be 663.40÷26.13 = 25.39 corpses per cubic meter. This means that, if the age and sex distribution of half-starved Polish ghetto Jews deported to Belzec had been like that of Provan's test group, the 21,310 cubic meters of grave space estimated by Kola could have taken in over 540,000 dead bodies.

Apparently you have the skill set Dogzilla is looking for.
 
I noticed you struggled with basic information, yes. But, on the other hand, no, I didn't think a quiz was your idea, and I really don't understand this post, along with so many others you make.

No, you demonstrate a lack of familiarity with important figures and critical texts - not simply with who x was. You cover over your ignorance with pseudo-science and diversionary rhetoric.

Where is the "pseudo-science", LemmyCaution?
 
Coal mining is undoubtedly harder physical labour than the work of the Sonderkommandos. We also have some nice points of comparison between German coal miners and foreigners including Soviet POWs who were forced down German mines in WWII. Unsurprisingly, the Soviet POWs had a lower productivity than the German coal miners.

Coal miners aren't undertakers.



And in several places they used excavators. Your point?

That end of the process could be mechanized. The other end of the process couldn't.



Very few other mass graves were as continually added to as the mass graves at the death camps.

Your point?



I think a far better comparison is with landfill sites. The graves were filled continuously over a period of weeks and months, during which time decomposition as well as sheer physical pressure solved all the space problems perfectly well.
Belzec was closed at the end of 1942 to new 'business' because the graves were overflowing. There were still more than 150,000 Jews in Galicia to kill, though, which would have been an increase of 1/3 on the actual death toll. So the Nazis machine-gunned the remaining 150,000 Galician Jews into smaller mass graves right where they lived, leaving many dozens of mass graves dotted all over the eastern Galician countryside. That was in addition to the 78 mass graves they left dotted all over the western Galician countryside with many 10s of 1000s of bodies in them.

There is only one possible explanation as to why Belzec needed 21,000 cubic metres of grave space. Even Snakey managed to kill off nearly 280,000 victims into those graves, which would leave 150,000 supposedly unaccounted for since we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that 434,000 Jews were deported to Belzec.

We also know beyond a shadow of a doubt that more than half that number were deported westwards from eastern Galicia to Belzec and that the rest were deported eastwards from western Galicia and the Lublin area.

The day when someone tells me about a colony of Jews from Krakow somewhere to the east of Belzec, or a camp which held previously unaccounted for Jews from Lwow to the west of Belzec, is the day I might take denier gibberish slightly more seriously.

There is simply no explanation which can leave out the facts regarding where the victims came from and remain even vaguely honest or coherent. Yet in all the pseudomaths and amidst all the incredulity from the Dead Nazi PR Machine, we absolutely never hear about those basic, undeniable facts, which are utterly intrinsic to the history of Belzec and cannot be abstracted away with a handwave.

It's perfectly clear that the Belzec mass graves could accommodate all the victims allowing for decomposition and the fact that the camp closed when the graves overflowed. None of the arm-twirling from the DNPRM changes that. But you're doubly screwed because in all of your handwaving you've neglected to account for the deportations and thus the identity of the victims. Not to mention the undeniable fact that Jews who according to the documented Nazi coverstory were supposed to be going east were actually going in utterly the wrong direction.

Your arguments are excruciatingly tedious, because they never bother to think things through several steps ahead. You just say one thing and leave the whole issue hanging in mid-air, then try to change the subject.

From mass graves to where did they go. And I tried to change the subject?
 
Throwing bodies into graves is highly skilled labor. :) :D :dl:

tsig thinks throwing bodies into a mass grave is the same as carefully arranging them to achieve maximum density!!! :) :D :dl: Remind me to ask somebody who has evolved into a more complex carbon based lifeform to pack my suitcase next time I go on vacation!! :) :D :dl:
 
As usual Dogzilla is lying on every point.

We guys - nope, me.
Forced - nope, just offering a few names for discussion.
Nominate one credible Jewish eyewitness - nope, named with 2 others and explicitly explained that the "name one" is a stupid game; of course, one of us guys, Nick, named about 200 for discussion but . . .

Judge for yourself. Here was the first post by us guys (supposedly) being forced (according to Dogzilla's lying) to nominate Pesye Schloss as the one credible eyewitness (says Dogzilla):
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7571462&postcount=5853

Of course, Lemmycaution lies again--just like it did by trying to talk about mass shootings as evidence for gas chambers. But, please judge for yourself. Here was the first post by you guys (and when I say "you guys" I mean Lemmycaution) finally rising to Saggy's challenge and nominating Pesye Schloss as the one credible eyewitness.

I swear to D-g, this is like shooting fish in a barrel. It's too bad all the idiots who don't participate in holocaust denial discussions but still think it's wrong (and who will never see this post and, ergo, not be offended by it) won't see me handing Lemmy his credibility on a platter.
 
Snaketongue said:
What measurement are you using?
Density, calculated from your claimed figures.

Density is a scalar, not a measurement.

adjective
(of a quantity) having only magnitude, not direction.
noun
a scalar quantity. Compare with vector (sense 1 of the noun).


http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/scalar?region=us&q=scalar

I asked you which measurement (unit) are you using for "0.46".

If I assume you are using Kg/m^3 I still do not know how you obtained this number.

From which calculation I presented you calculated this number?

Mass graves certainly are similar to garbage dumps. Like garbage, human corpses decompose and leak fluids.

Ordinary garbage do not have skeleton formation.

The first bodies were buried in March 1942, victims from the Lublin and Lwow ghettos. Exhumation to cremate the bodies did not even take place until the end of 1942, more than 9 months later.

Roberto specifically modelled this, and you have yet to discuss that model.

This ignores the evidence of swelling and falling in the mass graves reported by witnesses. It also ignores the archaeological evidence of layers of corpses sometimes up to 2m thick in the graves which were themselves not much more than 5m deep. Evidence from other camps utilising mass graves suggests that the bottom-most layers were so decomposed that they could hardly be exhumed. All this is discussed in the mass graves chapter.

I will discuss Roberto model of decomposition when I finish to examine his references.

Roberto used Bay's model and correlated with the average weights for the height of men in Bay's model. He then used a figure that was lower than the actual average weight of a man of that height. In fact, his figures are very close to one of the 27-year old adult males in Provan's experiment, who was 67 inches tall and weighed 62kg clothed, not 68 inches tall like a 'Vitruvian man' and not 66kg naked like the contemporary average weight for a man 68 inches tall.

Roberto Muehlenkamp model is not using a physical model and do not respect the proportional variation of the human body. Roberto Muehlenkamp only use mass variation as variable to define the volume of a body and ignores that human bodies have limitations due the skeleton formation.

So your claim of 'deceit' is actually entirely counterproductive, because Roberto was being conservative. You just shot yourself in the foot, again.

The evidence was already stated: garbage dumps have optimum densities of 0.8 to 1.2 tons per cubic metre. One can easily compare these figures with the figure produced by multiplying the average weight of 'Vitruvian men' by the modelled calculation of 10.7 such 'Vitruvian men' per cubic metre. This produces a density of 0.66 to 0.7 tons/cubic metre.

Where is the evidence? You are presenting data without a source to support your argument. From where "garbage dumps have optimum densities of 0.8 to 1.2 tons per cubic metre" come from?

Yes. So? Hypothetical models are perfectly valid starting points to establish parameters.

Yet the results of the hypothetical model and Provan's physical experiments converge perfectly well. Bay's hypothetical model implies a density of 0.66 to 0.7 tons/cubic metre. Dividing this weight by the average weight of a Belzec victim produces a figure of 19.5 bodies per cubic metre instead of 10.7 bodies per cubic metre.

It do not imply anything physical at all. The model is imaginary and do not regard mass variation. Roberto Muehlenkamp provided an fictional mass for the model and used as factor to change the model volume.

Let's use the Roberto Muehlenkamp's formula to know how many skeletons from adult bodies with approximate mass of 8Kg would fit the mass graves of Belzec:

x = (217000*z)/(327*y)

x = (217000*21310)/(327*8)

x ~ 1767687

In accordance with Roberto Muehlenkamp's formula the mass graves would hold up to 1,767,687 human skeletons.

What Roberto did, as should be obvious to any sentient person, is apply a cross-check on this calculation (which operates in only one dimension, weight) by also looking at Provan's experiment, which offers another perspective since it looked specifically at volume.

The two perspectives converge because Provan's experiment proved that 18.2 people (American, healthy, clothed even!) could fit into a cubic metre. It is plain as day that there is not much difference between 18.2 and 19.5. Thus, the one-dimensional calculation using only weight is not nearly as inaccurate as you claim.

Moreover: you yourself used the 0.44 cubic metre dimension of the experiment in your pseudoscientific calculation, yet ignored the patently obvious conclusion that if 8 clothed people (a mix of adults-children-toddler) who are breathing can fit into 0.44 cubic metres, then 18.2 clothed people (also a mix of adults-children-toddlers) who are breathing will fit into a whole cubic metre.

You did not present any evidence which demonstrate my calculations are incorrect or not respecting the proportions of the human body. I am applying arithmetical formulas supported by reliable evidence. If you call mathematics a "pseudo-science", I grossly disagree.

The experiment proved that inside a box of 0.44m^3 is possible to fit JUST 3 adults, 4 children and 1 toddler. The "8 clothed people" have different sizes, shapes and volume. Therefore it is imperative to respect the proportions presented by the experiment performed by Charles D Provan.

But your calculations ended up producing a different figure, because your equations were designed to obfuscate.

And you haven't demonstrated that there is actually anything inaccurate in Roberto's simple calculations. Adding xyzs obfuscates what is plain as day from the model and the experiment.

Yet the results converge very closely.

But the proportions of Provan's subjects still produced a density of 18.2 people per cubic metre. Your calculations are clearly wrong.

Human bodies are not a scalar neither a measurement.

LOL. Roberto proceeded on the very rough assumption of two adults (of equal weight) to one child. Provan had 3 adults and 5 children (including one toddler), all being healthy Americans in the 1990s and not starved Polish ghetto Jews of the 1940s. They averaged 33.25kg per person.

If two adult Polish Jews weighed on average 43kg and a child 16kg, as you "accepted" for the purpose of trying to refute the calculation based on 34kg, then if there are three adults and 5 children (which rounds up the toddler), the average weight is indeed no longer 34kg but 26.13kg per person. This is exceedingly simple arithmetic.

Average mass of children in Charles D Provan experiment = 21Kg

Average mass of toddler in Charles D Provan experiment = 7Kg

"Toddler" do not "rounds up" to "children".
 
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All of snakes latest post is a pointless diversion that proves nothing.

Snake the Holocaust has a mountain of evidence proving it happened and you choose to nit pick in a plainly brazen attempt to say something like one nail was out of place so it did not happen
 
Of course, Lemmycaution lies again--just like it did by trying to talk about mass shootings as evidence for gas chambers. But, please judge for yourself. Here was the first post by you guys (and when I say "you guys" I mean Lemmycaution) finally rising to Saggy's challenge and nominating Pesye Schloss as the one credible eyewitness.

I swear to D-g, this is like shooting fish in a barrel. It's too bad all the idiots who don't participate in holocaust denial discussions but still think it's wrong (and who will never see this post and, ergo, not be offended by it) won't see me handing Lemmy his credibility on a platter.
Of course, the first post of mine replying to Saggy with names, in fact with three names, just as I posted, is dated 13 September 2011 against the one Dogzilla links to from 30 October 2011, which, after that time and much back and forth, suggested discussing Schloss (this post even refers to Schloss as "another" name, Strawczynski having been met with tepid response!). As explained during the ensuing discussion, I settled on Pesye Schloss with the express purpose of bringing us to Trojak, Sakowicz, Dworzecki, and others, which any attempt to prove lack of credibility of Schloss necessarily involves. Which I explained here, in very few words: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7732694&postcount=7166. And elsewhere, of course, in many more words. As we have seen repeatedly, time and space are difficult concepts for deniers like Dogzilla, so why wouldn't he conflate a post from the end of October with a discussion joined in mid-September? Maybe Dogzilla isn't being dishonest in doing so, just dumb. Sigh. Shooting fish in barrels indeed.

An interesting exchange for historians of this thread is this one, in which Saggy almost brags that he'd been trolling Nick with the query in the first place: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7726781&postcount=7127. Historians of this thread should also note that Saggy, Dogzilla & Co. failed miserably to discuss multiple accounts for a single action, let alone multiple accounts for multiple actions.

Now, as to my supposed offering of Jaeger to prove gas chambers, those silent lurkers on whom Clayton pins so much hope will notice that Dogzilla offers nothing as evidence. Correct: nothing. Against the posts in which I explicitly state that I'd introduced Jaeger to discuss the extermination of Lithuania's Jews in shooting actions preceding the opening of gas chambers. In this instance, Dogzilla is clearly lying. He knows why I offered Jaeger, in what context, and what I said and didn't say about gas chambers. So why is Dogzilla making this crap up, I wonder?
 
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Coal miners aren't undertakers.

Coal miners engage in very hard physical labour. Undertakers don't have to cope with as many bodies as might be found on a battlefield or in a death camp. Calling the Sonderkommandos 'undertakers' is a nonsensical comparison.

That end of the process could be mechanized. The other end of the process couldn't.

What is your point? The fact remains that some assistance could be provided from tools and machines, which undoubtedly saved on a certain amount of physical energy and made the task slightly easier.

You seem to have skipped an earlier series of posts where it was established that in terms of sheer mass to be moved and dealt with, the death camp workforce was working at 1/50th of the efficiency of a standard Soviet coal miner of the 1930s.

Your point?

Is implicit in the statement. Here it is again: very few other mass graves were as continually added to as the mass graves at the death camps.

This means that the effects of decomposition with the reported bloating and settling were visible, and reported by witnesses from these camps.

From mass graves to where did they go. And I tried to change the subject?

There are multiple points to be answered, all of which you have dodged. Your problem as I said at the end is you are unable to think through several steps ahead. You are evidently unwilling to consider multiple factors.

One of those factors is point 2, which is the undeniable fact that Belzec stopped receiving new 'business' at the end of 1942. Another factor is the undeniable existence of the Belzec camp full stop.

Your replies, along with Snakey's, don't show the slightest interest in reconciling the known facts.


1) I think a far better comparison is with landfill sites. The graves were filled continuously over a period of weeks and months, during which time decomposition as well as sheer physical pressure solved all the space problems perfectly well.

2) Belzec was closed at the end of 1942 to new 'business' because the graves were overflowing.

3) There were still more than 150,000 Jews in Galicia to kill, though, which would have been an increase of 1/3 on the actual death toll. So the Nazis machine-gunned the remaining 150,000 Galician Jews into smaller mass graves right where they lived, leaving many dozens of mass graves dotted all over the eastern Galician countryside. That was in addition to the 78 mass graves they left dotted all over the western Galician countryside with many 10s of 1000s of bodies in them.

4) There is only one possible explanation as to why Belzec needed 21,000 cubic metres of grave space. Even Snakey managed to kill off nearly 280,000 victims into those graves, which would leave 150,000 supposedly unaccounted for since we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that 434,000 Jews were deported to Belzec.

5) We also know beyond a shadow of a doubt that more than half that number were deported westwards from eastern Galicia to Belzec and that the rest were deported eastwards from western Galicia and the Lublin area.

6) The day when someone tells me about a colony of Jews from Krakow somewhere to the east of Belzec, or a camp which held previously unaccounted for Jews from Lwow to the west of Belzec, is the day I might take denier gibberish slightly more seriously.

7) There is simply no explanation which can leave out the facts regarding where the victims came from and remain even vaguely honest or coherent. Yet in all the pseudomaths and amidst all the incredulity from the Dead Nazi PR Machine, we absolutely never hear about those basic, undeniable facts, which are utterly intrinsic to the history of Belzec and cannot be abstracted away with a handwave.

8) It's perfectly clear that the Belzec mass graves could accommodate all the victims allowing for decomposition and the fact that the camp closed when the graves overflowed. None of the arm-twirling from the DNPRM changes that. But you're doubly screwed because in all of your handwaving you've neglected to account for the deportations and thus the identity of the victims. Not to mention the undeniable fact that Jews who according to the documented Nazi coverstory were supposed to be going east were actually going in utterly the wrong direction.

9) Your arguments are excruciatingly tedious, because they never bother to think things through several steps ahead. You just say one thing and leave the whole issue hanging in mid-air, then try to change the subject.
 
Pseaudo science you could start by talking with Josef Mengle's victims
 
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Density is a scalar, not a measurement.

adjective
(of a quantity) having only magnitude, not direction.
noun
a scalar quantity. Compare with vector (sense 1 of the noun).


http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/scalar?region=us&q=scalar

I asked you which measurement (unit) are you using for "0.46".

Take your pick. tons/cubic metre is the one I have been using most.

If I assume you are using Kg/m^3 I still do not know how you obtained this number.

From which calculation I presented you calculated this number?

Your concluding figure versus the capacity of the Belzec graves.

Thus a 21,310 cubic meters burial pit would hold up to 297,713 bodies of adults and children with an average weight of 34 kilograms.

297,713 people weighing an average of 34kg = 10,122.242 tons. Divide by 21,310 cubic metres and the result is the relative density of the grave.

This works out at 0.4749 tons/cubic metre - I was going on another poster's calculation of 0.46, but the result is close enough. Your results imply less than half a ton per cubic metre, whereas models, experiments and other calculations imply significantly over half a ton per cubic metre.

Ordinary garbage do not have skeleton formation.

That still doesn't stop corpses in mass graves merging into an unholy mess.
http://genocideinbosnia.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/bosnian-genocide1.jpg

I will discuss Roberto model of decomposition when I finish to examine his references.

LOL, so you basically start your nitpicking before you consider the full argument. Got it. Some 'scientist' you are.

Roberto Muehlenkamp model is not using a physical model and do not respect the proportional variation of the human body.

Roberto used Bay's model. Frankly the abstraction involved is meaningless when compared with the stinkpile in the picture from Bosnia

Roberto Muehlenkamp only use mass variation as variable to define the volume of a body and ignores that human bodies have limitations due the skeleton formation.

This is utterly silly. Roberto started with a model that did acknowledge the limitations imposed by the human physique. Then he used mass variation to arrive at one value, then he cross-checked it against another model which is based on a physical experiment.

Where is the evidence? You are presenting data without a source to support your argument. From where "garbage dumps have optimum densities of 0.8 to 1.2 tons per cubic metre" come from?

A google search, of course. Eg here:
http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/research/library/data/123478.aspx
which talks of up to 1.2 tonnes/cubic metre (the use of metric measurements implies the weight is also metric, and indeed a tonne is also known as a metric tonne. I have been using metric values throughout.)

It do not imply anything physical at all. The model is imaginary and do not regard mass variation. Roberto Muehlenkamp provided an fictional mass for the model and used as factor to change the model volume.

Average weights are not fictional. There is nothing fallacious about using one model and determining the average weight of the bodies envisaged in that model to arrive at a total mass.

Let's use the Roberto Muehlenkamp's formula to know how many skeletons from adult bodies with approximate mass of 8Kg would fit the mass graves of Belzec:

x = (217000*z)/(327*y)

x = (217000*21310)/(327*8)

x ~ 1767687

In accordance with Roberto Muehlenkamp's formula the mass graves would hold up to 1,767,687 human skeletons.

That sounds about right. See the third row of pictures here, picture in the middle, showing piled skeletons uncovered in a mass grave at Busk, eastern Galicia

You did not present any evidence which demonstrate my calculations are incorrect or not respecting the proportions of the human body. I am applying arithmetical formulas supported by reliable evidence. If you call mathematics a "pseudo-science", I grossly disagree.

Your calculations obfuscated all the values inputted.

The experiment proved that inside a box of 0.44m^3 is possible to fit JUST 3 adults, 4 children and 1 toddler. The "8 clothed people" have different sizes, shapes and volume. Therefore it is imperative to respect the proportions presented by the experiment performed by Charles D Provan.

Which Roberto did when he scaled up from 8 people in 0.44 cubic metres to 18.2 people in 1 cubic metre. The Provan experiment proved that 18.2 people can fit into 1 cubic metre, if they are of the mix present in the experiment (adults, children, toddler).

Your rendition of Provan managed to 'lose' over 3 people/cubic metre in scaling up. Clearly something went wrong with your calculations, since the straightforward extrapolation indicates a density of 18.2 people/cubic metre. Nowhere have you explained why this extrapolation is wrong.

In your original post, you asserted the following

Charles D Provan’s experiment demonstrated an average body of 0.07158 cubic meters:

I've read that post several times now and cannot see where you explained how you arrived at this value at all. It was simply asserted without any substantiation, and is obviously in conflict with the results derived from fitting in 8 people into 0.44 cubic metres.

Your calculation of 297,713 people in 21,310 cubic metres produces a result of 13.97 people per cubic metre. You asserted that this is the result from Provan's experiment.

But if Provan fitted 8 people into 0.44 cubic metres, then one can fit 16 people into 0.88 cubic metres. Provan fitted 8 people into less than half a cubic metre of space.

Human bodies are not a scalar neither a measurement.

No, they're the thing being measured in this particular case.

Please, write to the British Environment Agency and correct them on their use of language:

Waste density figures used were 1.2 tonnes per cubic metre for non hazardous waste and 1 tonne per cubic metre for inert waste.

or stop correcting me on mine. You're not a native speaker and clearly don't understand English well enough to play the language troll.

Average mass of children in Charles D Provan experiment = 21Kg

Average mass of toddler in Charles D Provan experiment = 7Kg

"Toddler" do not "rounds up" to "children".

It really seems as if you simply seize on the slightest variation without even bothering to think through whether it helps or hurts your argument. The rounding-up actually increases the average weight. Substituting one of the 16kg children for your 7kg toddler decreases the result from 26.13kg to 25kg.
 
Eva Kor a monument to what a real human is capable of....

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,389491,00.html

Since then, however, Eva’s story has become one of forgiveness and personal healing. It has also become one of controversy. After all, the film, shown at the Körber Foundation on Tuesday night, does not focus on annihilation and guilt, as do so many Holocaust films that came before it. Rather, it is about a woman who made peace with those who exterminated her family and who tried to exterminate her.

Kor’s path to peace began with a trip to the country of her would-be murderers from her current hometown of Terre Haute, Indiana. Only a few weeks after the death of her sister, Eva flew to Germany to meet with a German doctor. Hans Münch was his name, and he had worked alongside Mengele in Auschwitz. After World War II ended, the SS-medic faced war crimes charges, but was found not guilty. In contrast to his colleagues, it was found that Münch had not carried out any experiments on his patients.

A former Nazi with a shy smile

She was incredibly nervous when she finally found herself standing in front of Münch’s door, Kor says. But then, an elderly gentleman with snow-white hair, a carefully trimmed beard and a shy smile opened the door. Yes, he admitted, he had been there during the gassings. “And that’s my problem,” he went on. He still suffers from depression and nightmares as a result. Kor had gone looking for a monster, but found a human being instead. “I then decided that I would write Münch a letter in which I forgave him,” Kor says.

But the resolute Auschwitz survivor went even further than that. When, in January 1995, the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz was celebrated, Kor brought Münch along. On the snow-covered site of the former extermination camp, she read a confession of guilt from Münch to the gathered press. She saw it as an important statement from an eye-witness that could be used to contradict those who would deny the Holocaust. But then, she said, “In my own name, I forgive all Nazis.”
 
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