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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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I don't know what point you're trying to make with the McCarthyism reference, but asking where the Jewish deportees went is a perfectly valid question to ask the deniers. After all, if they weren't murdered, as the historical record shows, they had to go SOMEwhere. You get to tell us where.
So little does Clayton like the question of where Jews were deported to and what happened to them there, he is still ignoring the cases of Vilna, Warsaw, Lodz, Riga, and Kiev during WW2.

I took it that with his McCarthy reference Clayton is redbaiting those with whom he disagrees.
 
so I see Mr Fantasy Land CM and his oppo snake still cannot provide any evidence of knowing anything about WW2 and the Holocaust.

Fact there were thriving jewish commmunites in Western and Eastern Europe prior to WW2

Fact these communities disappeared during WW2 in the areas of Europe under nazi occupation, mostly in the easten areas where the bulk of the extermination camps were

Can you see the correaltion here?
 
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It make all sense. Now I understand why I do not feel willing to address your long posts. It not exactly for me, it is for the audience.

As I once typed, this is certain a stage of intellectual show off.

LOL, writing 826 words addressing 2 substantive points was showing off?

Look, you were the one who asked about how university students read books. I simply answered, giving examples from the course you referred to, examples which happened to be very on-topic in the light of the medical experiments discussion. Evidently the 448 words you got in reply on this point frightened you.

And you keep on making irrelevant interjections and ad hominems every time someone brings up an online secondary source, interjections which are completely fallacious. I wrote 250 words explaining why, and evidently you could not cope with them.
 
want a good breakdown of the nazi rgeime and its crimes read these and I have read all of these:

William L. Shirer The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rise-And-Fall-Third-Reich/dp/0099421763

Gitta Sereny Albert Speer His battle with the Truth

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Albert-Spee...=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1337426088&sr=1-2

Laurence Rees Aushcwitz and the Final Solution

Laurence Rees The nazis A warning from History

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb...field-keywords=e+nazis+a+warning+from+history
 
When questioned more than an month after I have already demonstrated that I read one his speech, YES, I consider a good demonstration of intellectual arrogance.

Actually the reason you were asked about leading Nazis is that more than a month after making your Himmler howler, you have not given anyone the impression that you know a damn thing about this subject.
 
LOL, writing 826 words addressing 2 substantive points was showing off?

Look, you were the one who asked about how university students read books. I simply answered, giving examples from the course you referred to, examples which happened to be very on-topic in the light of the medical experiments discussion. Evidently the 448 words you got in reply on this point frightened you.

And you keep on making irrelevant interjections and ad hominems every time someone brings up an online secondary source, interjections which are completely fallacious. I wrote 250 words explaining why, and evidently you could not cope with them.
This problem with substance seems to be endemic to deniers. So inane were Dogzilla's repeated misrepresentations of the Jaeger Report (you may recognize this as the report Dogzilla refers to as the "Mick Jagger Reporr" or something like that) that they prompted me to summarize the friggin' thing, going through it pretty much point by point and adding specific reflections on Dogzilla's groundless assertions. That led to a post of 5357 words - which I know because Clayton Moore made this a key rebuttal topic. LOL. Too much to read as a pretext for dodging: SnakeTongue is just another one opting out and diverting in this manner. To anyone interested, on the other hand, Peter Longerich's recent biography of Himmler, clocking in at 948 pp, is a pretty decent length and has the virtue of providing explanation and sources to further knowledge and understanding, achievements well beyond SnakeTongue's ability and interest level. I know, Himmler who? But I'm not going to play SnakeTongue's silly game . . .
 
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Actually the reason you were asked about leading Nazis is that more than a month after making your Himmler howler, you have not given anyone the impression that you know a damn thing about this subject.
He has shown an uncanny ability to operate the JREF "spoiler alert" function, however.
 
so I see Mr Fantasy Land CM and his oppo snake still cannot provide any evidence of knowing anything about WW2 and the Holocaust.

Fact there were thriving jewish commmunites in Western and Eastern Europe prior to WW2

Fact these communities disappeared during WW2 in the areas of Europe under nazi occupation, mostly in the easten areas where the bulk of the extermination camps were

Can you see the correaltion here?
Not only this - and why I have asked for months for deniers to address specific Jewish communities in eastern Europe - we have voluminous evidence about life in these communities under Nazi occupation, the conditions of Nazi rule, deportations and murder actions in these communities, where the deportations took the Jewish inmates of ghettos, and what happened to them at these destinations.

What we utterly lack is evidence of any sort for wholesale removal of Jews from these communities to "places east" or for large numbers of Jews surviving and remaining in these communities through the war.

That is why our deniers avoid, dodge, divert, and "rule out of bounds" questions about this.
 
Address the calculations I made and present the "pseudo" part. Can you do it?

Your calculations were already commented on in several previous posts which you have hitherto ignored.

It was pointed out for starters that you had calculated a specific density of 0.46, lower than that of water. I then commented that garbage dumps operate with a specific density of 0.8 to 1.2 tons per cubic metre. It was also pointed out that conditions in the mass graves would rapidly resemble garbage dumps more than neat burials.

It was also pointed out that your calculations entirely ignored the argument about decomposition affecting burial space, which Roberto immediately went on to discuss in the section of the relevant chapter, and which produced figures significantly in excess of the number of victims.

Your calculations started by pouring scorn on Roberto Muehlenkamp using a lowballed figure for the weight of an average man, calling this 'deceitful'. In fact the use of a lowballed figure means Roberto was being quite conservative.

It seems you accept Bay's calculations that 10.7 men of 68 inches height (1.73metres) can fit into a cubic metre. The average weight of a man of 68 inches height is 66 kilograms. Thus, if 10.7 men of 68 inches height are packed into a cubic metre, the specific density of such a packing would be 0.7 - to be precise, 706.2kg/cubic metre.

Roberto used 62kg, the average weight for a woman, but this would also reflect a degree of undernourishment in men and is being conservative. On the basis of a 62kg weight, Roberto calculated that 10 average bodies of 1.73m height would weigh 663.4 kg, and thus a cubic metre of mass burial space would have a specific density of 0.6634 (0.6634 metric tons per cubic metre).

The essential calculation then made is to compare the probable average body weights of the victims, given as 34kg, with the average weight of 10 Vitruvian men. If the average weight was 66kg, then 20.7 undernourished bodies would weigh the same. If the average weight was 62kg, then 19.5 bodies would fit in.

It is indeed an imprecise hypothetical experiment, but that is why one can use other measurements, such as the specific densities of garbage dumps, to check the calculations. If garbage dumps have a specific density of 0.8 to 1.2 tons per cubic metre, then a burial density of 0.66 to 0.7 for 10 "Vitruvian men" is entirely plausible.

Your mistake was in first criticising the calculation based on average weights ("Charles A Bay‘s model was used to determine the volume occupied by an average male body without regard to mass variation") then using exactly that premise in discussing Provan's experiment.

In Charles D Provan’s experiment the 3 adults had a total mass (a) of 174Kg, 4 children a total mass (b) of 85Kg and 1 toddler a total mass (c) of 7Kg.

The second mistake was in misrepresenting the results of Provan's experiment regarding volume:

The average volume of an (x) adult, a (y) child or a (z) toddler inside Charles D Provan’s box is formulated by:

{x = a/(a+b+c)*0.44/3, y = b/(a+b+c)*0.44/4, z = c/(a+b+c)*0.44/1}

{x = 174/(174+85+7)*0.44/3, y = 85/(174+85+7)*0.44/4, z = 7/(174+85+7)*0.44/1}

x~0.0959398, y~0.0351504, z~0.0115789

None of this addressed Roberto's calculation that the Provan experiment showed that 8 people, consisting of 3 adults, 4 children and a toddler, could fit into 0.44 cubic metres. That extrapolates quite clearly to 18.2 people in 1 cubic metre.

You used the 0.44 cubic metre value in your calculation, so there is no argument on this; the results are a clear misrepresentation of Charles Provan and of Roberto Muehlenkamp.
 
Apples and apples. The Jewish POWS, the Soviet POWs, and the other groups of POWs obviously weren't subjected to treatment that would have incited a significant amount of resistance events. Furthermore the "snapping out" as a result of being terrorized and aware of brutality against and slaughter of POWs 24/7 never took place because there was no 24/7 terrorizing of POWs, no awareness of 24/7 brutality against POWs and no 24/7 slaughter of POWs.

And no one is asserting there was 24/7 terrorizing/brutality/slaughter against Jews either. Even Nazis had to sleep, and we've pointed out that sometimes the Nazi killing methods broke down; hence the problems with the gas chambers we've been discussing recently.

You have this peculiar false dichotomy in your mind where all the Jews were either in 24/7 rebellion or not. Yet you acknowledge that the Jewish POWs weren't rebelling, even though they should have access to the same knowledge of mistreatment you claim all Jews did, in addition to being trained military. Earlier, just knowledge that they might be treated in a similar manner would've been, you claim, enough to incite la revolucion, even if they weren't being treated in this manner themselves. If you are now claiming that not all Jews would've revolted, you've just debunked your own argument.
Invisibility as a weapon works well for team Holocaust. They forever ask about millions of non-existent Jewish deportees "If they weren't killed by the Nazi's what happened to them? Where did they go?"

They used their invisibility weapon again in the fifties with a twist. They said there was no Communist problem and that the McCarthy hearings were witch hunts of non-existent subversive communists.

Wait, so you're saying that millions of people were made up? That every bit of evidence about their existence prior to their disappearance was faked? By both Nazis and Team Holocaust, and that such evidence stands up to scrutiny by modern forensic techniques even today?

AHAHHAHAHA.

:dl:
 
I almost forgot Ian Kershaw's books are good too

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=467128293&pf_rd_i=468294

Clayton wil disregard him hes not American according to his MMR\vaccine thread he will only accept American scholars in his bizarre fantasy looney toons world

Have you read these lies from Eli Wiesel yet?

http://www.amazon.com/Night-Oprahs-Book-Club-Wiesel/dp/0374500010
Night (Oprah's Book Club)

Book Description
Publication Date: January 16, 2006
Night is Elie Wiesel's masterpiece, a candid, horrific, and deeply poignant autobiographical account of his survival as a teenager in the Nazi death camps. This new translation by Marion Wiesel, Elie's wife and frequent translator, presents this seminal memoir in the language and spirit truest to the author's original intent. And in a substantive new preface, Elie reflects on the enduring importance of Night and his lifelong, passionate dedication to ensuring that the world never forgets man's capacity for inhumanity to man.

Night offers much more than a litany of the daily terrors, everyday perversions, and rampant sadism at Auschwitz and Buchenwald; it also eloquently addresses many of the philosophical as well as personal questions implicit in any serious consideration of what the Holocaust was, what it meant, and what its legacy is and will be.

Have you seen Spielberg's The Last Days?

http://www.amazon.com/The-Last-Days...1_1?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1337444925&sr=1-1


The Last Days of the Big Lie
"The Last Days of the Big Lie" exposes Spielberg's hoax, with the diamond defecating woman and the black guy who never liberated Dachau.

youtube.com/watch?v=-48HQpgQRz0
 
So little does Clayton like the question of where Jews were deported to and what happened to them there, he is still ignoring the cases of Vilna, Warsaw, Lodz, Riga, and Kiev during WW2.

I took it that with his McCarthy reference Clayton is redbaiting those with whom he disagrees.

I can understand his dislike of the question. After all, a careful and reasoned analysis of the idea of deportation causes the whole denier case to fall apart.
 
Have you read these lies from Eli Wiesel yet?
No, but I have read *your* lies about THHP, and Krege, and POWs, and tank engines, and ...

And that's just in *this* thread.

Hypocrite much?
Have you seen Spielberg's The Last Days?
No, most of us prefer to get our history from (this is apparently impossible for you to comprehend) historians.

This is why, for example, anyone with an interest in the matter does not believe Washington chopped down a cherry tree.

He, unlike the posts you make and then run from, "could not tell a lie".

We also do not believe that since the Greek gods were not major players in the various Trojan wars means that Odysseus never existed.

I'm sorry to have to break it to you, but the fact that "Johnny Appleseed" did not go around randomly planting trees does not mean that John Chapman wasn't a Swedenborgian missionary -- nor was he likely to have been partial to the Rambo variety of trees. Which also doesn't change the fact that that tree in Nova, Ohio was probably not planted by him, personally, or that that farm is was owned last I checked by the Algeo family.
 
I see CM can only offer one more whacko link and not real research nor history

CM you obviously know nothing about history
 
Your calculations were already commented on in several previous posts which you have hitherto ignored.

It was pointed out for starters that you had calculated a specific density of 0.46, lower than that of water. I then commented that garbage dumps operate with a specific density of 0.8 to 1.2 tons per cubic metre. It was also pointed out that conditions in the mass graves would rapidly resemble garbage dumps more than neat burials.

What measurement are you using?

Mass graves are not similar to garbage dumps. Human bodies have strong bone structure and when crammed in burial pits its resist to high quantity of pressure.

It was also pointed out that your calculations entirely ignored the argument about decomposition affecting burial space, which Roberto immediately went on to discuss in the section of the relevant chapter, and which produced figures significantly in excess of the number of victims.

Decomposition in high rate only occurs with bodies not crammed and exposed to open air environment. Human corpses buried and crammed have a low decomposition rate.

Bodies distributed in 33 burial pits during circa 8 months indicates that a pit was filled and covered at least each 8 days. So there was no condition to a high rate of decomposition.

Your calculations started by pouring scorn on Roberto Muehlenkamp using a lowballed figure for the weight of an average man, calling this 'deceitful'. In fact the use of a lowballed figure means Roberto was being quite conservative.

The "conservative" formula developed by Roberto Muehlenkamp is deceitful and the estimation of the weight is a sheer exaggeration.

It seems you accept Bay's calculations that 10.7 men of 68 inches height (1.73metres) can fit into a cubic metre. The average weight of a man of 68 inches height is 66 kilograms. Thus, if 10.7 men of 68 inches height are packed into a cubic metre, the specific density of such a packing would be 0.7 - to be precise, 706.2kg/cubic metre.

Roberto used 62kg, the average weight for a woman, but this would also reflect a degree of undernourishment in men and is being conservative. On the basis of a 62kg weight, Roberto calculated that 10 average bodies of 1.73m height would weigh 663.4 kg, and thus a cubic metre of mass burial space would have a specific density of 0.6634 (0.6634 metric tons per cubic metre).

The essential calculation then made is to compare the probable average body weights of the victims, given as 34kg, with the average weight of 10 Vitruvian men. If the average weight was 66kg, then 20.7 undernourished bodies would weigh the same. If the average weight was 62kg, then 19.5 bodies would fit in.

It is indeed an imprecise hypothetical experiment, but that is why one can use other measurements, such as the specific densities of garbage dumps, to check the calculations. If garbage dumps have a specific density of 0.8 to 1.2 tons per cubic metre, then a burial density of 0.66 to 0.7 for 10 "Vitruvian men" is entirely plausible.

I disagree since you did not provided any calculation or evidence to support your assertion.

Charles A Bay used a hypothetical model. His experiment is not based on a physical test like the one did by Charles D Provan.

You just repeated the inaccurate formula of Roberto Muehlenkamp:

x = (217000*z)/(327*y)

y = Body Mass (Kg)
z = Burial Pit Volume (m^3)

Your mistake was in first criticising the calculation based on average weights ("Charles A Bay‘s model was used to determine the volume occupied by an average male body without regard to mass variation") then using exactly that premise in discussing Provan's experiment.

Charles D Provan provided results from a physical experiment, Charles A Bay did not.

The second mistake was in misrepresenting the results of Provan's experiment regarding volume:

Snaketongue said:
The average volume of an (x) adult, a (y) child or a (z) toddler inside Charles D Provan’s box is formulated by:

{x = a/(a+b+c)*0.44/3, y = b/(a+b+c)*0.44/4, z = c/(a+b+c)*0.44/1}

{x = 174/(174+85+7)*0.44/3, y = 85/(174+85+7)*0.44/4, z = 7/(174+85+7)*0.44/1}

x~0.0959398, y~0.0351504, z~0.0115789

None of this addressed Roberto's calculation that the Provan experiment showed that 8 people, consisting of 3 adults, 4 children and a toddler, could fit into 0.44 cubic metres. That extrapolates quite clearly to 18.2 people in 1 cubic metre.

You used the 0.44 cubic metre value in your calculation, so there is no argument on this; the results are a clear misrepresentation of Charles Provan and of Roberto Muehlenkamp.

The calculation I made respect the proportions of adults, children and a toddler inside Charles D Provan box.

Roberto Muehlenkamp calculations and you completely ignore this fact:

107 (...) Applying Polish ghetto weights to Provan's test-group members (i.e. 43 kg for each of the three adults and 16 kg for each of the five children), the average weight would be [(3x43)+(5x16)]÷8 = 26.13 kg, and the calculated concentration would be 663.40÷26.13 = 25.39 corpses per cubic meter. This means that, if the age and sex distribution of half-starved Polish ghetto Jews deported to Belzec had been like that of Provan's test group, the 21,310 cubic meters of grave space estimated by Kola could have taken in over 540,000 dead bodies.
 
(...) SnakeTongue is just another one opting out and diverting in this manner. To anyone interested, on the other hand, Peter Longerich's recent biography of Himmler, clocking in at 948 pp, is a pretty decent length and has the virtue of providing explanation and sources to further knowledge and understanding, achievements well beyond SnakeTongue's ability and interest level. I know, Himmler who? But I'm not going to play SnakeTongue's silly game . . .

Where is the "pseudo-science", LemmyCaution?

The quiz was not my idea, did you noticed that?
 
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