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Richard Gage Blueprint for Truth Rebuttals on YouTube by Chris Mohr

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In a distance of 10 to 20 feet a force of 30 times their own mass was available?

Not in this universe.

From a "standing" start no less.

When :pigsfly

If you understood even one tiny bit of first-semester physics, you would understand where that force comes from. Hint: How fast was the upper block moving when it impacted the floor below?
 
In a distance of 10 to 20 feet a force of 30 times their own mass was available?

Not in this universe.

From a "standing" start no less.

When :pigsfly
Rest a bowling ball on your head, uncomfortable, right? Now drop that same ball from 10 to 20 feet on to your head, same thing, just uncomfortable?
 
Chris7, I'm not a thermnite expert, but every video of the application of thermite I have ever seen shows blinding light for around 45 seconds. This includes demonstrations of thermite and thermate by 9/11 Truth experimenters, who do show that thermate can cut through steel. But it also shows (1) blinding light when even a couple pounds of thermite is burned (2) a long, slow, imprecise process of burning through steel. The most generous I can be is to admit the possibility that thermate can cut through steel and maybe more precisely than was done in Cole's backyard experiment.
You have only seen rudimentary devices and you don't know how nano-thermite could be used at all. We know that nano-thermite can be made explosive [but not a high explosive]. This would reduce the amount needed to do the job. The facade was clad in red granite and a bright light would not necessarily be great from the outside if reflected of walls. You are just supposing there would be a blinding light that could be seen thru the smoke. You really don't know that.

I can even admit to the possibility that the light can be covered at first, but NOT tons of thermate for 45 seconds
The molten iron from the nano(?)thermite was immediately buried by the upper part of the building. Molten iron was discovered in the debris pile, your denial notwithstanding. The reports of molten steel cannot be hand waved as "It must have been something else", that's denial, not science. A real investigation would definitely consider the possibility that all those witnesses saw molten steel.

after the building fell backwards
The building did NOT fall backwards, it fell a little to the SW but it landed mostly in its own footprint i.e. it fell mostly straight down.

I still can't believe you seriously assert this.
Assert what? You are the one asserting that there would be a blinding light.
 
If you acknowledge that explosions can happen in regular office fires, then it is up to you to eliminate the possible causes of explosive sounds I listed, leaving only thermite or some kind of bomb. That's what an arson investigator does. That's what they did after 9/11. Hundreds of them. Specialists.
That is not what NIST did. They did not consider explosives and did not test for explosive residue using the reasoning that they might not find any. That is making an assumption rather than investigating. They ignored all the reports of molten steel and explosions by simply hand waving them.

That is NOT how real investigations are done. All possibilities are investigated and no conclusions are made until near the end of the investigation.
 
The reports of molten steel cannot be hand waved as "It must have been something else", that's denial, not science.
And what about absence of reports of molten aluminium oxide?

It can't be handwaved as "it must be thermite but we don't know why there's no aluminium oxide".
 
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In a distance of 10 to 20 feet a force of 30 times their own mass was available?

Not in this universe.

From a "standing" start no less.

When :pigsfly

Would you care to back that up with some actual calculations? Because I got that number from people who did. Unfortunately, they accidentally deleted the thread since, which you will doubtless use to accuse me of making the whole thing up.
 
C7 said:
The reports of molten steel cannot be hand waved as "It must have been something else", that's denial, not science.
And what about absence of reports of molten aluminium oxide?

It can't be handwaved as "it must be thermite but we don't know why there's no aluminium oxide".
The JREF sidestep. Never concede a point, just ask a question that changes the subject.

It is inexcusable for NIST to hand wave all the reports of explosions and molten steel.

That is NOT how real investigations are done. All possibilities are investigated and no conclusions are made until near the end of the investigation.
 
You have only seen rudimentary devices and you don't know how nano-thermite could be used at all.
Neither do you. You're speculating. You're appealing to magic.

We know that nano-thermite can be made explosive [but not a high explosive].
No, it can be used as part of an explosive. But then you have something that would leave evidence of an explosive.

This would reduce the amount needed to do the job.
And cause other problems.

The facade was clad in red granite and a bright light would not necessarily be great from the outside if reflected of walls.
Except that it would also shine straight out through the windows. Given that most ceilings are white or light grey tiles, and 7 had such ceilings, they become more visible, not less.

You are just supposing there would be a blinding light that could be seen thru the smoke. You really don't know that.
It would be consistent with every known use of the smoke. I like how you're trying to conflate thermite and explosives so you can switch from one to the other whenever needed, much like you switch from NIST Is Lying to NIST Is Gospel.

The molten iron from the nano(?)thermite was immediately buried by the upper part of the building. Molten iron was discovered in the debris pile, your denial notwithstanding. The reports of molten steel cannot be hand waved as "It must have been something else", that's denial, not science. A real investigation would definitely consider the possibility that all those witnesses saw molten steel.
Straw man. The argument is that it might have been something else, and given other fires where witnesses incorrectly claimed to see "molten steel", probably was. It is impossible for anyone to determine whether it was molten steel by eye.

The building did NOT fall backwards, it fell a little to the SW but it landed mostly in its own footprint i.e. it fell mostly straight down.
Wrong. Very wrong. It crossed the street to the North (Fiterman) and West (Verizon), but most of it fell south. It was an asymmetric collapse outside of its footprint.

Assert what? You are the one asserting that there would be a blinding light.
And you're the one asserting that his assertion is wrong, and providing no evidence, just unbacked claims about granite and reflections.

That is not what NIST did. They did not consider explosives and did not test for explosive residue using the reasoning that they might not find any. That is making an assumption rather than investigating. They ignored all the reports of molten steel and explosions by simply hand waving them.
Actually, I seem to recall that NIST tested/collected data on the audio signatures of explosives. They explicitly said so. Which means they considered the possibility, and found it wanting. You are either poorly informed or lying.

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/wtc_qa_082108.cfm

Did investigators consider the possibility that an explosion caused or contributed to the collapse of WTC 7?
Yes, this possibility was investigated carefully. NIST concluded that blast events inside the building did not occur and found no evidence supporting the existence of a blast event.
In addition, no blast sounds were heard on the audio tracks of video recordings during the collapse of WTC 7 or reported by witnesses. According to calculations by the investigation team, the smallest blast capable of failing the building's critical column would have resulted in a sound level of 130 decibels (dB) to 140 dB at a distance of at least half a mile, if unobstructed by surrounding buildings. This sound level is consistent with a gunshot blast, standing next to a jet plane engine, and more than 10 times louder than being in front of the speakers at a rock concert.
[...]
Is it possible that thermite or thermate contributed to the collapse of WTC 7?
NIST has looked at the application and use of thermite and has determined that its use to sever columns in WTC 7 on 9/11/01 was unlikely.
[...]
To apply thermite to a large steel column, approximately 0.13 lb of thermite would be needed to heat and melt each pound of steel. For a steel column that weighs approximately 1,000 lbs. per foot, at least 100 lbs. of thermite would need to be placed around the column, ignited, and remain in contact with the vertical steel surface as the thermite reaction took place. This is for one column . presumably, more than one column would have been prepared with thermite, if this approach were to be used.

It is unlikely that 100 lbs. of thermite, or more, could have been carried into WTC 7 and placed around columns without being detected, either prior to Sept. 11 or during that day.

Given the fires that were observed that day, and the demonstrated structural response to the fires, NIST does not believe that thermite was used to fail any columns in WTC 7.
[...]
An emergency responder caught in the building between the 6th and 8th floors says he heard two loud booms. Isn't that evidence that there was an explosion?
The sound levels reported by all witnesses do not match the sound level of an explosion that would have been required to cause the collapse of the building. If the two loud booms were due to explosions that were responsible for the collapse of WTC 7, the emergency responder-located somewhere between the 6th and 8th floors in WTC 7-would not have been able to survive the near immediate collapse and provide this witness account.
And I'm just quoting a small portion of the relevant bits. Chris, you are wrong. Flat-out wrong. Oh, and about that diesel fuel hypothesis you like to beat your breast about;

Did fuel oil systems in WTC 7 contribute to its collapse?
No. The building had three separate emergency power systems, all of which ran on diesel fuel. The worst-case scenarios associated with fires being fed by ruptured fuel lines-or from fuel stored in day tanks on the lower floors-could not have been sustained long enough, could not have generated sufficient heat to weaken critical interior columns, and/or would have produced large amounts of visible smoke from the lower floors, which were not observed.
There you are. NIST considered and dismissed that theory too, Sarns.

Chris7 said:
That is NOT how real investigations are done. All possibilities are investigated and no conclusions are made until near the end of the investigation.
False. An investigation is mostly following the most likely possibilities. To determine those, you have to come to conclusions about which are least likely. And, of course, there are some things that are impossible, or discovered to be so over the course of the investigation, such as the prime suspect's alibi checking out.
 
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You have only seen rudimentary devices and you don't know how nano-thermite could be used at all. We know that nano-thermite can be made explosive [but not a high explosive]. This would reduce the amount needed to do the job. The facade was clad in red granite and a bright light would not necessarily be great from the outside if reflected of walls. You are just supposing there would be a blinding light that could be seen thru the smoke. You really don't know that.

The molten iron from the nano(?)thermite was immediately buried by the upper part of the building. Molten iron was discovered in the debris pile, your denial notwithstanding. The reports of molten steel cannot be hand waved as "It must have been something else", that's denial, not science. A real investigation would definitely consider the possibility that all those witnesses saw molten steel.

The building did NOT fall backwards, it fell a little to the SW but it landed mostly in its own footprint i.e. it fell mostly straight down.

Assert what? You are the one asserting that there would be a blinding light.

Thermite is not an explosive. Kevin Ryan's backyard-brew nanothermite gel did manage to generate enough gas (by vaporization of the gel matrix) to knock the plastic lid off a pyrex beaker. I wouldn't dignify that into an actual explosion. The beaker itself was undamaged except for a messy residue.

Actual demolitions are done with cutting charges, which use the Munroe effect to focus the energy of high explosives into a narrow jet of high kinetic energy gas. Note that the 1993 WTC bombing used over a ton of explosive but the truck bomb did no damage to the column it was parked near to.

You could destroy a building with a low explosive like black powder by packing it chock full, but it wouldn't be a "controlled" demolition in any sense. Probably it would leave a huge crater and destroy everything in the vicinity.

Perhaps Kevin Ryan (Dr. Jones seems to have dropped out of the Truth Movement) could demonstrate how to use smoke to obscure the dazzling light emission of thermite. All he needs is a smoke generator (rentable from motion picture special effects companies) and some thermite. I predict it will be very difficult.
 
The JREF sidestep. Never concede a point, just ask a question that changes the subject.
You are a hypocrite, since you have refused to say whether Chris Mohr's "misleading statements" were the same as lies.

It is inexcusable for NIST to hand wave all the reports of explosions and molten steel.
They investigated and dismissed them, which you would know if you didn't have me on ignore. The explosions were not explosives, they said, and thermite couldn't be used either. Once again, you're switching between explosives or thermite or both at the drop of a hat.

That is NOT how real investigations are done. All possibilities are investigated and no conclusions are made until near the end of the investigation.
Have you never seen Law and Order? Homicide? Cops? Columbo, even? That is how they are done. Like Holmes said, eliminate the impossible.

You seem to have this idea that NIST wrote "thermite" and "explosives" on pieces of paper, then crumpled them up and tossed them in the bin. This is false. You're not complaining about them being dismissed without serious thought, you're complaining about them being dismissed at all.
 
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...Perhaps Kevin Ryan (Dr. Jones seems to have dropped out of the Truth Movement) could demonstrate how to use smoke to obscure the dazzling light emission of thermite. All he needs is a smoke generator (rentable from motion picture special effects companies) and some thermite. I predict it will be very difficult.

Or just set some cars on fire. Or better yet, a building. Or both.
 
You have only seen rudimentary devices and you don't know how nano-thermite could be used at all. We know that nano-thermite can be made explosive [but not a high explosive]. This would reduce the amount needed to do the job. The facade was clad in red granite and a bright light would not necessarily be great from the outside if reflected of walls. You are just supposing there would be a blinding light that could be seen thru the smoke. You really don't know that.

The molten iron from the nano(?)thermite was immediately buried by the upper part of the building. Molten iron was discovered in the debris pile, your denial notwithstanding. The reports of molten steel cannot be hand waved as "It must have been something else", that's denial, not science. A real investigation would definitely consider the possibility that all those witnesses saw molten steel.

The building did NOT fall backwards, it fell a little to the SW but it landed mostly in its own footprint i.e. it fell mostly straight down.

Assert what? You are the one asserting that there would be a blinding light.
C7 here is my YouTube video about molten iron: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gijCzs9SWH4
You've seen this but this is not a handwave, it's a direct confrontation of the question of molten steel vs molten aliuminum or whatever. We've been through this. I took this very seriously, even finding a 9/11 hero willing to go on record saying he KNOWS there weren't 2800 degree temps because he was THERE for three months and studied the daily NASA satellite thermal images as a life-saving precaution for his men, the vast difference in firefighting techniques between 1400 degrees and 2800 degrees (water explodes when hitting super-hot molten metals), etc etc etc.

I don't know what thermite does in an expert sense but I have yet to see a single example of thermite that does anything but radiate extremely intense light for 45 seconds, long after a chaotic collapse is over, long after any "protection" is ripped apart.

You are asserting thermite. I say impossible because this extreme light would give it away.
 
Evidence? Are you kidding? THREE HUGE skyscrapers are virtually completely pulverized and virtually completely demolished by freaking falling on themselves?

And you're saying it couldn't have been done WITH explosives?

It doesn't make any difference how the demolition was performed. Get it?

The collapse premise says the collapse had to begin at one point of failure and continue to virtually completely pulverize and virtually completely demolish each of the THREE HUGE skyscrapers.

ONE point of failure. Get it?

So when one column buckled the load it was supporting vanished?
 
I said completely.

Chris Mohr, about 2/3 of each WTC tower was completely pristine. Which of your videos explains how a much lighter 1/3 of a building forced down and demolished the much heavier and much sturdier 2/3 of each tower.

Pristine?!!

:dl:
 
The JREF sidestep. Never concede a point, just ask a question that changes the subject.
Dodge noted. You brought up molten iron. Thermite produces both iron and aluminium oxide in similar weights (but more volume for aluminium oxide). Since you have no explanation, you decide that I have changed the subject for noting the absence of 50% of the proof (by weight) of thermite.

Face it: having a plausible mechanism for collapse by fire (regardless of whether it happened exactly like that or not) and since there's zero evidence of the use of explosives or thermite, the burden of proof for CD is entirely on those who propose it, and there's no reason to waste public resources in pursuing anyone's crazy theory like CD unless there's clear and convincing proof (by a court's standards) that there were explosives AND they were used.

Remember James Quintiere already criticized NIST (and very rightly so) for wasting resources in investigating explosives. Playing Conspiracy with the taxpayers' money is not fun for most.
 
C7 here is my YouTube video about molten iron: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gijCzs9SWH4
You start with the unprecedented and unsubstantiated claim that aluminum can mix with organic materials. This is not a fact but rather baseless supposition by NIST. There is NO evidence that this can occur.

You quote Leslie Robertson as saying "I have no recollection of having made any such statements.", referring to seeing molten steel.

He seems to have forgotten what he said at a presentation at Stanford University. In that presentation he said he saw "a little river of steel flowing".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLCwq3-RzZs

Disregard the Chaplin. He was wrong about the beams melting together but the other professionals thought it was molten steel and that is the most likely possibility.


You say that Richard Gage's statement that deeper down in the pile the temperature was much hotter is not supported by the facts. That is not so.

The ASSE said:
"[SIZE=-1]The debris pile at Ground Zero was always tremendously hot. Thermal measurements taken by helicopter each day showed underground temperatures ranging from 400ºF to more than 2,800ºF."
http://www.asse.org/professionalsafety/archive.php
or view as a document:
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/analysis/asse_groundzero1.htm

[/SIZE] Some people claim to know better that the American Society of Safety Engineers. They don't.


You talk about the presence of aluminum but that has nothing to do with the surface temperatures of 1400oF five days after 9/11 when there were no surface fires. Firefighters had put huge amounts of water on the pile in those five days and were continuing to apply more constantly.

You say that it would be impossible to know what was dripping from the steel beams being pulled from the pile. Then you quote a retired professor as saying the metal in the crab claw "appeared to be" something other than steel. How could he determine that it "appeared to be" something other than steel? Did you ask him? The truth is, he could not tell if it was something other than steel from the photograph so his statement is unreliable.

You run thru the list of reasons to deny that it was molten steel but you refuse to believe that it could have been molten steel.

The piston seal on the crab claw was far enough away that it would not be seriously effected by the heat immediately. The arm and claw would need to be cooled with water after each load but heavy equipment is not delicate.

The "other people you have talked to" don't know what they are talking about.

Mark Loizeaux said "There are both video tape and still photos of the molten steel being "dipped" out by the buckets of excavators." because he knows that heavy equipment can pick up molten steel. The buckets may be ruined but from molten metal hardening on the bucket but not the bucket melting. It takes a while to heat thick steel.

You go on about putting water on molten steel but ignore the fact that the molten steel was deep in the pile.


I'll respond to the second half of your video in another post.
 
I don't know what thermite does in an expert sense but I have yet to see a single example of thermite that does anything but radiate extremely intense light for 45 seconds, long after a chaotic collapse is over, long after any "protection" is ripped apart.
You keep referring to a few home brew examples of thermite cutting devices which don't begin to address all the possibilities. And you persist in ignoring the fact that you haven't got a clue what nano-thermite can do.

The truth is:

You don't know how thermite/nano-thermite could be used in a demolition or how much light/sound would be emitted. You are just supposing.
 
One removed truss in WTC7 would be enough to send it down - in fact this is what happend.

You have moved into the universe of "making ◊◊◊◊ up"

The whole core of WTC2 was completely overloaded by the airplaine strike. It's a miracle that it didn't collapse the moment it was hit.

a comical assertion,

The rest of your post is not worth replying to.

Troofer projection :rolleyes:
 
You keep referring to a few home brew examples of thermite cutting devices which don't begin to address all the possibilities. And you persist in ignoring the fact that you haven't got a clue what nano-thermite can do.

The truth is:

You don't know how thermite/nano-thermite could be used in a demolition or how much light/sound would be emitted. You are just supposing.
YOU are completely ignoring my repeated assertion that every single video I have seen of thermite, thermate, etc always show extremely brilliant light for about 45 seconds. Am I wrong? Can you show me dim thermite?

You are also IGNORING the firefighter I found who was there every day for around three months and KNOWS what the temperatures were because he HAD to know for the safety of his crew. It took me months to find this guy and no 9/11 Truth person seems willing to face up to his direct testimony.
 
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You keep referring to a few home brew examples of thermite cutting devices which don't begin to address all the possibilities. And you persist in ignoring the fact that you haven't got a clue what nano-thermite can do.

The truth is:

You don't know how thermite/nano-thermite could be used in a demolition or how much light/sound would be emitted. You are just supposing.
To continue: no, I don't know much about nanothermite. Faster reaction, maybe some explosive potential in some applications, and also what Gage says brought down the Towers (Gage: thermate for Bldg 7). You keep asserting my ignorance without really saying what properties you think nanothermites had on 9/11. So educate me.

I have been pretty respectful of Cole's home-brew experiments, actually. I have acknowledged that they show thermate can cut through steel, and I have also acknowledged that if a home experiment like this can demonstrate what it does, it is possible that more can be done with more expertise and resources. I'm surprised you think I'm putting down those experiments. I acknowledge that thermite/nanos/thermate CAN do this work, but it DIDN'T or Millete would have found evidence of it in the dust and the brilliance of the light would have been a dead giveaway. You keep asserting thermitics but I'm not satisfied with your answers to your objections... in fact I consider the smoke-covering-the-brilliant-light-for-45-seconds explanation one of the most surrealistic things you've ever claimed.
 
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