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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Snaketongue said:
If "Jewish-Bolshevik Commissars" is a canard, and Jews were not among captured communists, why would the Professor Hirt require the skeletons from "Jewish-Bolshevik Commissars"? Why would a scientist demand skeletons from a race which happen not to be among the captured communists?

Obviously because he was a "scientist" who had bought into the pseudo scientific thought process that tried to show that there was a difference between the Irish and the English that would result in deformed offspring.

Tell us, what sort of scientist would think that someone's politics would affect their skeletal structure?
 
Oh Nick, oh Nick...

I did not dismiss the source. You are a confused. I only made a criticism of the source. The link is still there, anyone is able to read it.

No, doofus, you cherrypicked a couple of paragraphs from the introduction and declared Lifton to be a 'hack writer', which is an obvious attempt to dismiss the work out of hand, since 'hack writers' are not very highly regarded. That's why ANTPogo dismissed Irving as a 'hack writer', and why you copied him in what was a childish example of NO U turnabout.

If you want to criticise a source then you are meant to criticise the whole of the source, i.e. read the entire book. Twice now you've been recommended a link and then cherrypicked something you dislike from a preface or introduction as if to say, I found the first mistake and now I don't need to read the rest.

Or you criticise on a specific point, which means, actually addressing that specific point. Whether or not Lifton got it wrong about Schumann's experiments is not going to be something you can deduce from an introduction.

Lifton's introduction can after all be complete rubbish, and the relevant discussion of a specific point can still be fine. A whole chapter could be rubbish and the next one could be perfectly usable. Or there might only be one chapter in the whole thing which is useful.

That's why Western scholars have never dismissed communist East Bloc scholarship out of hand, despite the fact that vanishingly few people in the West agreed with the brand of Marxist-Leninist verbiage which was inevitably found in the introductions of books by East Bloc scholars.

Anyway, read the introduction of the source is essential. You skip introductions when you read books?

Do you suggest to skip book introductions when lecturing your module "Perspective on Sources" at Exeter University?

Clearly you don't know the difference between consulting a book for reference purposes, extracting information for a discrete task, and reading a book cover to cover. Lifton's book discusses sterilisation experiments at Auschwitz. That's why it was recommended. Interested parties could thus look up the source as if they were using Wikipedia or an encyclopedia, and read the chapter should they care to. They could also choose to read the whole thing cover to cover. Lifton's book has been previously recommended on this thread (by Wroclaw, IIRC) in its entirety. I was recommending it for a specific purpose.

Students of mine have made very good use of Lifton, as it happens, along with Pressac's Natzweiler book. They make varied use of these authors depending on what they were aiming to answer. Some consulted a single chapter for specific points of fact, and others engaged with the introduction and conclusion to consider Lifton's interpretations and discussed those.

They also consulted and discussed among other authors covering similar ground, Paul Weindling, Ulf Schmidt, Michael Bryant, Joachim Neander, Lawrence Douglas, Susan Benedict, Patricia Heberer, Michael Burleigh, Henry Friedlander, Goetz Aly, Michael Kater, Claudia Koonz, Maria Lagerwey, Kenneth Mellanby, Susanne Ost, Sheldon Rubenfeld, Hans-Walter Schmuhl, Daniel Wallace, Leroy Walters, Katrin Weigmann, William Seidelmann, Margit Szollosi-Janze, Francis Nicosia, Jonathan Huener, Larry Thompson, Dan Stone, Robert Gerwarth, and Peter Longerich, to name some of the more frequently-cited authors. Some they consulted and some they discussed. Both methods are valid depending on your aim.

The important thing is the students consult multiple sources, and compare and contrast them, sometimes cross-checking facts or using one source to complement another factually, and sometimes comparing interpretations and arguments.

Why Nazi doctors carried out medical experiments and participated in the euthanasia program is a question that exercised them greatly, and they quickly worked out that one can emphasise Nazi ideology, the influence of eugenics and racial hygiene, continuities with Weimar, careerism, opportunism and many other factors in varying combinations, depending on one's assessment.

My students actually paid an inordinate amount of attention to the defense arguments made by Nazi doctors and their lawyers because the defense claims presented a more complex and nuanced picture, and contained a mixture of brazen lies, denials of responsibility or criminality, and accusations against other Nazis, along with a lot of detail about what they had actually done.

That Nazi doctors carried out medical experiments and participated in the euthanasia program is essentially a non-question, since the Nazi doctors themselves admitted these things consistently and the students could easily locate large numbers of contemporary documents as well as other sources confirming this fact. Reconstructing the events was quite easy for them as a result.

Well done Dr Terry!

You produce the URL direct to the quote you wish to present to support your argument.

I am glad you are learning to improve the URL citation.

Maybe when you have demonstrated that you are capable of digesting a whole book and using it properly, your hilariously misplaced condescension might mean something.

As it seems you don't even know who the relevant authors are on pretty much any topic under discussion on this thread, you're still stuck on the reading-list stage. So until you stop flunking history 101, you'll generally get the tables of contents and the like.

I like that...

"Fact-checking"!

For an unknown reason I read:

Fat-checking!

Your fat posts have an sense of fat-fact-checking.

Bitterness is unbecoming, Snakey. I'm truly sorry that you are such a research klutz that you cannot operate Google effectively and cannot coordinate or assimilate information on the same level as others, but with practice, then maybe one day you can work out how to join in these discussions and not make a complete ass of yourself.
 
So what?

Let's test your "limited" knowledge:

Which role did the "Smoking Snakes" played in World War II?
You would be referring to the Brazillian Expeditionary Force's army component. The shoulder patch showed a snake smoking a pipe. The force served in the Mediterranean theatre from 1944 to the end of the war.
 
I like how SnakeTongue equates knowledge of the obscure, minor role the Brazilian military played in WWII with knowledge of who Heinrich Himmler was.
 
Yet you seem to have no problem with Clay's reluctance to discuss the non-resistance of the Soviet POWs, or of any group besides the Jews.

The objection isn't so much that size doesn't matter, but that the difference in sizes you claim exists is not really significant in discussing whether the Nazis were guilty of attempted genocide. Whether 2.8 million or 6 million, the number is so large that human beings cannot really psychologically conceptualize it.

Apples and apples. The Jewish POWS, the Soviet POWs, and the other groups of POWs obviously weren't subjected to treatment that would have incited a significant amount of resistance events. Furthermore the "snapping out" as a result of being terrorized and aware of brutality against and slaughter of POWs 24/7 never took place because there was no 24/7 terrorizing of POWs, no awareness of 24/7 brutality against POWs and no 24/7 slaughter of POWs.
 
Apples and apples. The Jewish POWS, the Soviet POWs, and the other groups of POWs obviously weren't subjected to treatment that would have incited a significant amount of resistance events. Furthermore the "snapping out" as a result of being terrorized and aware of brutality against and slaughter of POWs 24/7 never took place because there was no 24/7 terrorizing of POWs, no awareness of 24/7 brutality against POWs and no 24/7 slaughter of POWs.

So you are re-writing the entire Pacific campaign now? (which contains only the FIRST examples that leap to mind of methodical brutality against POWs).
 
Clayton, while Jewish POWs may not have been abused, the vast majority of the Jewish people in the camp were NOT POWs. What military formation did Anne Frank belong to?
 
You still haven't finished the test I gave you. You named one person. Who are the other three? This is kind of a big deal, because so far you have shown a severe lack of knowledge on the subject we are discussing here. Very much like your denier brethren, you seem to believe that personal incredulity equals evidence, and much like a twoofer you appear to believe that if something isn't on the internet it isn't worth knowing.

Please finish the test that I gave you. Afterwards, take a long hard pondering about what exactly you want to achieve in this thread. So far you are making holocaust deniers look retarded, and I don't think that's your intent.

I care less for your quiz.
 
Apples and apples. The Jewish POWS, the Soviet POWs, and the other groups of POWs obviously weren't subjected to treatment that would have incited a significant amount of resistance events. Furthermore the "snapping out" as a result of being terrorized and aware of brutality against and slaughter of POWs 24/7 never took place because there was no 24/7 terrorizing of POWs, no awareness of 24/7 brutality against POWs and no 24/7 slaughter of POWs.
Let's see. Earlier Clayton wrote, "You need to research the violence, world wide, of the union workers vs company goons and police confrontations. The willingness of workers to fight for reasons that pale in comparison to the savagery Team Holocaust alleges was levied against Jewish people in the camps." But now he says that Soviet POWs who watched their comrades shot while captures took place, who were forced onto death marches to POW camps, who were held in primitive conditions without protection from weather and without even rudimentary hygiene, who got beaten by guards, who barely survived - or didn't - on a starvation diet, who saw fellow prisoners die from malnutrition or shot for political unreliability, or who worked at dangerous jobs like mine clearing "weren't subjected to treatment that would have incited a significant amount of resistance events." Does Clayton even read the nonsense he posts?
 
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Bitterness is unbecoming, Snakey. I'm truly sorry that you are such a research klutz that you cannot operate Google effectively and cannot coordinate or assimilate information on the same level as others, but with practice, then maybe one day you can work out how to join in these discussions and not make a complete ass of yourself.

Fat posts again, Dr Nicholas Terry? Only to conclude that I cannot take part into the discussion because you assume I do not know use Google search?

Why you waste so many words?
 
I like how SnakeTongue equates knowledge of the obscure, minor role the Brazilian military played in WWII with knowledge of who Heinrich Himmler was.

I am trying to show that is not a problem to admit that you do not know something, but you and others like to play along with this loop game of intellectual arrogance:

"Do you remember who x was?"

"Do you remember who x was?"

"Do you remember who x was?"

"Do you remember who x was?"
 
Fat posts again, Dr Nicholas Terry? Only to conclude that I cannot take part into the discussion because you assume I do not know use Google search?

Why you waste so many words?
Perhaps you can only comprehend very short posts with small words and very, very simple ideas. This, which has to do with your general ignorance of a topic you post on and your incapacity to deal with, well, narrative texts -
Maybe when you have demonstrated that you are capable of digesting a whole book and using it properly, your hilariously misplaced condescension might mean something.

As it seems you don't even know who the relevant authors are on pretty much any topic under discussion on this thread, you're still stuck on the reading-list stage.
- was Nick's main point.
 
I am trying to show that is not a problem to admit that you do not know something, but you and others like to play along with this loop game of intellectual arrogance:

"Do you remember who x was?"

"Do you remember who x was?"

"Do you remember who x was?"

"Do you remember who x was?"
No, you demonstrate a lack of familiarity with important figures and critical texts - not simply with who x was. You cover over your ignorance with pseudo-science and diversionary rhetoric.
 
I care less for your quiz.

Because you score poorly at it, I get it. But couldn't you try to learn something then? That was my point after all.

For the record, the people you failed to recognize were (in reverse order):

Eichmann
Goebbels
And the big Kahuna himself, A. Hitler.

1 out of 4 isn't too bad, but your score puts you squarely in the elementary school bracket of knowledge. You want to shoot for junior high next time?

ETA: I wonder if we should have a "WWII 101" quiz before we let anyone post in this thread. Wonder how many deniers would be left. SnakeTounge certainly wouldn't be here.
 
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No, you demonstrate a lack of familiarity with important figures and critical texts - not simply with who x was. You cover over your ignorance with pseudo-science and diversionary rhetoric.

Address the calculations I made and present the "pseudo" part. Can you do it?
 
Fat posts again, Dr Nicholas Terry? Only to conclude that I cannot take part into the discussion because you assume I do not know use Google search?

At the moment it's quite clear you are unable to take part in the discussion successfully.

You are frequently unable to communicate what you want to say clearly, you are evidently deeply confused about the premises of history as as a discipline and indeed, about serious discussion in general, and you are woefully ignorant of the actual subject matter.

Why you waste so many words?

Because people other than you also read them.
 
Because you score poorly at it, I get it. But couldn't you try to learn something then? That was my point after all.

For the record, the people you failed to recognize were (in reverse order):

Eichmann
Goebbels
And the big Kahuna himself, A. Hitler.

1 out of 4 isn't too bad, but your score puts you squarely in the elementary school bracket of knowledge. You want to shoot for junior high next time?

I am not your student, I am not subscribed in your school system, I did not point out you as authority to shape my cognitive discernment.

Did you understand that?

I care less for what you pretend with your quiz.
 
Address the calculations I made and present the "pseudo" part. Can you do it?
I was referring to this
If "Jewish-Bolshevik Commissars" is a canard, and Jews were not among captured communists, why would the Professor Hirt require the skeletons from "Jewish-Bolshevik Commissars"? Why would a scientist demand skeletons from a race which happen not to be among the captured communists?
and this gibberish
Does the source have any inconsistent data?
I don't see any calculations to check. Just your comedy act with the "race . . . among the captured communists" and a pompous question about data referring to a link without any.
 
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