Founder of Sea Shepherd Arrested in Germany

[NoahFence]

The only thing I hate more than eco-terrorism is passive aggressive wimpy eco-terrorism. I'd have a lot more respect for Sea Shepherd if they'd man up and just start bombing boats.

Seriously, you think Sea Shepherd needs to "man up"?

 

[Furcifer]

[qimg]http://robinbrown.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/sisko-facepalm1.jpg[/qimg]

I forgot how low my expectations of you should be. I apologise, I won't make that mistake again.

Ad hom, I didn't expect anything less. Your argument is over there gasping it's last breath, you may want to address it.

 

[Macgyver1968]

Update on Watson's case.

Apparently, they decided yesterday he could be released on bail while awaiting the court's decision on whether they will extradite him or not. SS is using the weekend to come up with his €250,000 bail money. He will most likely be released on Monday. He has to stay in the country while on bail.

Frankfurt's higher regional court announced on Friday that it had put him under preliminary arrest after deciding that an extradition would be permissible under German law. The authorities in Costa Rica now have three months to send the necessary extradition papers to Germany. However, the court said it was ultimately up to the federal justice ministry to decide whether or not to send him to Costa Rica.

 

[Checkmite]

This is actually the commonest reaction I hear to their TV show. If you go to the show's page on IMDB the message board section is FULL of people laughing at them and cheering on the whalers, many of whom say that the show has made them into supporters of whaling.

I wonder if the board just attracts the sort of person who likes to be contrary, or if the overall impact of the show is to actually harm their own cause.

The show hasn't made me into a supporter of whaling, any more than Occupy Wall Street's failery will turn me into a Republican. It just makes me very anti-Sea-Shepherd. I want them to be unsuccessful not because I like whaling, but because I wish a lack of success on douchebags in general, and particularly on ones who wrap themselves in a "moral cause". I do not feel good that the guy's neat multimillion-dollar speedboat was destroyed for instance; but watching the taunts suddenly stop and the smug drain from their faces as it occurs to them that the whaler is not veering away is rather like a sip of hot cocoa on a bitter cold night.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

The show hasn't made me into a supporter of whaling, any more than Occupy Wall Street's failery will turn me into a Republican. It just makes me very anti-Sea-Shepherd. I want them to be unsuccessful not because I like whaling, but because I wish a lack of success on douchebags in general, and particularly on ones who wrap themselves in a "moral cause". I do not feel good that the guy's neat multimillion-dollar speedboat was destroyed for instance; but watching the taunts suddenly stop and the smug drain from their faces as it occurs to them that the whaler is not veering away is rather like a sip of hot cocoa on a bitter cold night.

Exactly. As I said upthread, the SS tends to make people pro whalers (but not necessarily pro whaling). I think that it's akin to the Oakland Raiders (an American professional football team to you non-Americans reading this). They are the team that everyone likes to root against when they don't really have any other opinion about the particular game being played. Hell their team logo is even similar in some respects to the Sea Shepherds, probably because the root emblem for both is the classic Jolly Roger flag.

The Sea Shepherds make it so very easy to dislike them on so many different levels. Be it their flaunting of the law when it suits them while complaining that others are flaunting the law at the same time, their utter ineptitude as seamen, their stated position that it's ok to lie if it suits their cause and so on.

In my opinion the only people who support them (not their cause of stopping whaling, just the SS and their tactics) are doing so out of hatred and not rational thought. In that regard they are like the people who like the idea of Abortion Clinic bombings. There are plenty of people out there who abhor the idea of abortion and consider it murder but don't agree at all with the idea of blowing up a clinic to stop them just as there are plenty of people out there who don't like the idea of whaling (some even consider it murder) but don't agree with how the SS are going about trying to stop it.

 

[DC]

Exactly. As I said upthread, the SS tends to make people pro whalers (but not necessarily pro whaling). I think that it's akin to the Oakland Raiders (an American professional football team to you non-Americans reading this). They are the team that everyone likes to root against when they don't really have any other opinion about the particular game being played. Hell their team logo is even similar in some respects to the Sea Shepherds, probably because the root emblem for both is the classic Jolly Roger flag.

The Sea Shepherds make it so very easy to dislike them on so many different levels. Be it their flaunting of the law when it suits them while complaining that others are flaunting the law at the same time, their utter ineptitude as seamen, their stated position that it's ok to lie if it suits their cause and so on.

In my opinion the only people who support them (not their cause of stopping whaling, just the SS and their tactics) are doing so out of hatred and not rational thought. In that regard they are like the people who like the idea of Abortion Clinic bombings. There are plenty of people out there who abhor the idea of abortion and consider it murder but don't agree at all with the idea of blowing up a clinic to stop them just as there are plenty of people out there who don't like the idea of whaling (some even consider it murder) but don't agree with how the SS are going about trying to stop it.

oh is that so? how do you know?

 

[Cain]

Trying to remember the last time a Japanese whaler accidentally or intentionally explodey-harpooned some passerby's arm or something and it's just not coming to me (although to be honest I do not regularly keep track of such incidents so I just may not have heard of them).

Good point. As far as we know, they've never fired on humans. So where's the harm? I don't see any killing. Just a bunch of a dead whales.

 

[Furcifer]

Because when I'm talking about Norway or Iceland I'm actually talking about Indonesia?



I'm guessing you're referring to Indonesia here, and you can see how they do it on the second link in this post.

Or you can just look at the table below.



Because asking someone who has been rather shifty in this discussion for clarification is a dodge.



Oh I see, so I'm to compare other ships to the Nisshin Maru and then somehow determine which ships are commercial and which aren't based on some set of standards that exist in your head.

But since I'm a little bored I'll play your stupid little game and present it in a nice table for you:

Ship | Picture | Country | Use | Tonnage (GT) | Length (m) | Propulsion (kw) | Commercial Status according to Furcifer
Nisshin Maru| ICR |Japan|Main Research Vessel/Factory Ship|7659|129.58|5383|Commercial
Yūshin Maru No. 2| Shipspotting |Japan|Research fleet harpoon ship|1059|69.61|3900|Non-commercial
Hvalur 9 RE99| Shipspotting |Iceland|Whaling|573|51.15|1398|Non-commercial
Hvalur 8| Shipspotting |Iceland|Whaling|481|48|n/a|Non-commercial
Skarbakk| Shipspotting |Norway|Whaling|156|21.523|n/a|Non-commercial
Brandsholmbøen| Shipspotting |Norway|Whaling|78.17|20.13|n/a|Non-commercial
Sofie| Shipspotting |Norway|Whaling|134|21.2|n/a|Non-commercial
???| Daily Mail |Indonesia|Whaling|very small|~4|However fast 16 men can row/whale dependent|Non commercial
Bob Barker| Wikipedia |Togo|Disrupting Japanese Whaling (Sea Shepherd)|788|52.2|2206.5|Not current whaling vessel

Of course I will need you to tell me if the last column is correct, but I will admit that this method of defining "commercial" as "the largest ship involved in whaling" is pretty interesting. I could probably use that logic to "prove" that the only commercial cattle producer is Anna Creek station and that because of that the only commercial cattle company is S Kidman and Co Ltd.

Thanks for posting the image links. Unfortunately I'm having trouble opening them, but I was able to open the first one from Iceland. It certanly looks like a commercial fishing boat. I've seen the Indonesian whaling in the BBC special, it actually looks like the Daily Fail pic is from the video. I don't know how you could confuse that with a Japanese commercial whaling vessel? Or that the hunt is done for personal use and not for profit like the Japanese operation.
It seems to me you're just playing the same game of semantics that has allowed the countries claiming "traditional" hunting rights to ramp up production so that it's now so far removed from "tradition" it's unrecognizable.

 

[alfaniner]

This is actually the commonest reaction I hear to their TV show. If you go to the show's page on IMDB the message board section is FULL of people laughing at them and cheering on the whalers, many of whom say that the show has made them into supporters of whaling.

I wonder if the board just attracts the sort of person who likes to be contrary, or if the overall impact of the show is to actually harm their own cause.

I used to see the same on the Discovery Channel forum, when they still had it. I guess the moderation got to be too much, even though there were people from the SS actually posting there (and apparently not imposters.)

 

[portlandatheist]

Exactly. As I said upthread, the SS tends to make people pro whalers (but not necessarily pro whaling). I think that it's akin to the Oakland Raiders (an American professional football team to you non-Americans reading this). They are the team that everyone likes to root against when they don't really have any other opinion about the particular game being played. Hell their team logo is even similar in some respects to the Sea Shepherds, probably because the root emblem for both is the classic Jolly Roger flag.

The Sea Shepherds make it so very easy to dislike them on so many different levels. Be it their flaunting of the law when it suits them while complaining that others are flaunting the law at the same time, their utter ineptitude as seamen, their stated position that it's ok to lie if it suits their cause and so on.

In my opinion the only people who support them (not their cause of stopping whaling, just the SS and their tactics) are doing so out of hatred and not rational thought. In that regard they are like the people who like the idea of Abortion Clinic bombings. There are plenty of people out there who abhor the idea of abortion and consider it murder but don't agree at all with the idea of blowing up a clinic to stop them just as there are plenty of people out there who don't like the idea of whaling (some even consider it murder) but don't agree with how the SS are going about trying to stop it.

Another amusing aspect of the show is how poorly they get along with each other overall and the extreme turnover of crew every time they reach a port. Its not just the audience that experiences its fair share of dislike.

 

[Checkmite]

Another amusing aspect of the show is how poorly they get along with each other overall and the extreme turnover of crew every time they reach a port. Its not just the audience that experiences its fair share of dislike.

And that illustrates the point brilliantly. There's no shortage of people willing to support and even give their time and effort to help "save whales"...before they meet these people. And as repugnant as one may find them after being exposed to a few clips on a TV show, imagine being stuck with them on a boat in the southern ocean, unable to escape until whenever they decide to put into port.

Incidents like the Steve Irwin nosing into the aft quarter of that whaler at full speed must be horrifying. On deck the poor saps could at least watch their fate coming to meet them; imagine being belowdecks or in the engine room, feeling the collisions and listening to the screeching metal and wondering what on Earth is going on.

 

[RandFan]

And that illustrates the point brilliantly. There's no shortage of people willing to support and even give their time and effort to help "save whales"...before they meet these people. And as repugnant as one may find them after being exposed to a few clips on a TV show, imagine being stuck with them on a boat in the southern ocean, unable to escape until whenever they decide to put into port.

Incidents like the Steve Irwin nosing into the aft quarter of that whaler at full speed must be horrifying. On deck the poor saps could at least watch their fate coming to meet them; imagine being belowdecks or in the engine room, feeling the collisions and listening to the screeching metal and wondering what on Earth is going on.

I felt for the crew when they got stuck in the ice. They are obviously do not give a damn about the lives of those aboard.

 

[AlaskaBushPilot]

My commercial fishing boat in the drift gillnet fishery of the lower Yukon (Y-1 district, Emmonak) was 20 ft. There were a lot of boats smaller than mine. I had twin 50 hp Mercs on the back of that. I used two mesh sizes, one for Chums and one for Kings.

Right now I got a 24 ft Wooldridge with a 225 hp Johnson and jet unit. It is not a commercial boat. The definition of "commercial" has nothing to do with size. It is strictly whether you catch for personal use or for trade.

And as a matter of fact we fished some days for personal use, always for kings that we smoked up with alders, and the boat was non-commercial on those days. That's how they separated the commercial from personal use - by which day you fished. We had to listen to the radio to listen for the openers of either one, which were anywhere from 12 hours to two days depending on the sonar count at the mouth.

So just go on with making up your own terms to suit your agenda. But it doesn't have much to do with the real world.

 

[Furcifer]

My commercial fishing boat in the drift gillnet fishery of the lower Yukon (Y-1 district, Emmonak) was 20 ft. There were a lot of boats smaller than mine. I had twin 50 hp Mercs on the back of that. I used two mesh sizes, one for Chums and one for Kings.

Right now I got a 24 ft Wooldridge with a 225 hp Johnson and jet unit. It is not a commercial boat. The definition of "commercial" has nothing to do with size. It is strictly whether you catch for personal use or for trade.

And as a matter of fact we fished some days for personal use, always for kings that we smoked up with alders, and the boat was non-commercial on those days. That's how they separated the commercial from personal use - by which day you fished. We had to listen to the radio to listen for the openers of either one, which were anywhere from 12 hours to two days depending on the sonar count at the mouth.

So just go on with making up your own terms to suit your agenda. But it doesn't have much to do with the real world.

Strawman. Nobody said the size of the boat was the only factor.
You're right of course, what the boat is used for plays a significant role in whether or not it's considered a commercial or recreational vessel. At least for smaller boats, for larger boats, like the ones in question, they can't even be registered as recreational vessels. I can't remember all of the laws offhand but these boats have to be captained and have a crew etc. based on their length.
The Japanese are operating a fleet of modern commercial whaling vessels, there's no question about that. And there's really no question it's nothing like the "traditional" hunts seen in various countries around the world.
Commercial hunting isn't sustainable, we really don't need any more "research" to prove that.

 

[Wildy]

Thanks for posting the image links. Unfortunately I'm having trouble opening them, but I was able to open the first one from Iceland. It certanly looks like a commercial fishing boat.

But is it though? Remember, you were the one who said that the yardstick is the Nisshin Maru.

I've seen the Indonesian whaling in the BBC special, it actually looks like the Daily Fail pic is from the video. I don't know how you could confuse that with a Japanese commercial whaling vessel?

I don't believe I did.

Or that the hunt is done for personal use and not for profit like the Japanese operation.

So how do you know if a hunt is for personal use and not for profit?

It seems to me you're just playing the same game of semantics that has allowed the countries claiming "traditional" hunting rights to ramp up production so that it's now so far removed from "tradition" it's unrecognizable.

Do you mean "traditional" as in "we've always eaten whales" or "traditional" as in "we have specific methods of catching and eating whales?

Strawman. Nobody said the size of the boat was the only factor.

Perhaps you could explain the other factors that make up your definition of "commercial" since so far we only have "size of the boat"?

Commercial hunting isn't sustainable, we really don't need any more "research" to prove that.

You say that but you refuse to provide any actual evidence that this is the case. You have however tried to reverse the burden of proof by asking others to somehow show that Japan isn't affecting Kyrgyzstan's share of the whales though.

 

[Furcifer]

But is it though? Remember, you were the one who said that the yardstick is the Nisshin Maru.

I don't believe I did.

So how do you know if a hunt is for personal use and not for profit?

Do you mean "traditional" as in "we've always eaten whales" or "traditional" as in "we have specific methods of catching and eating whales?

Perhaps you could explain the other factors that make up your definition of "commercial" since so far we only have "size of the boat"?

You say that but you refuse to provide any actual evidence that this is the case. You have however tried to reverse the burden of proof by asking others to somehow show that Japan isn't affecting Kyrgyzstan's share of the whales though.

I'm not sure, it could be that the use of the bigger boat is a result of whales being as big as they are. Is it registered as a commercial boat?

The people killing the whale get a share of the kill. In Indonesia the kid delivering the killing blow gets a double share.

Both and more. Tradition is admittedly hard to define, but we've been able to do so here in Canada. Maybe we're just smarter than the Japanese?

You're lying. I've explained numerous other factors that go into making the Japanese whaling vessels commercial. I'm not going into capacity, range, international waters, organization, personal use, registration etc. again.

Perhaps you need to read more about whaling or read what I've already written for comprehension? The reason whales are protected is because commercial whaling was unsustainable. I suggest a history book.
Again, if you're saying the critical decline in the World's whale populations wasn't due to commercial hunting, and that what the Japanese are doing is sustainable then prove it. Just remember they're doing it in international waters so "It's sustainable if the Japanese are the only ones doing it" isn't a viable answer.

 

[swright777]

...
Incidents like the Steve Irwin nosing into the aft quarter of that whaler at full speed must be horrifying. On deck the poor saps could at least watch their fate coming to meet them; imagine being belowdecks or in the engine room, feeling the collisions and listening to the screeching metal and wondering what on Earth is going on.

This is so true. One of the greenpeace ships did this to us back in 1989. Bolts and & metal fittings were snapped and the gunwale was damaged. We spent close to 3 months in the yards getting repaired.

 

[Wildy]

I'm not sure, it could be that the use of the bigger boat is a result of whales being as big as they are. Is it registered as a commercial boat?

The Icelandic boats that belong to the private company Hvalur hf? Them? I think they're registered as 1:87.1 models. It's either that or whaling ships, but then my Icelandic is pretty non-existent.

The people killing the whale get a share of the kill. In Indonesia the kid delivering the killing blow gets a double share.

And?

Both and more. Tradition is admittedly hard to define, but we've been able to do so here in Canada. Maybe we're just smarter than the Japanese?

So what is the Canadian definition then?

You're lying. I've explained numerous other factors that go into making the Japanese whaling vessels commercial. I'm not going into capacity, range, international waters, organization, personal use, registration etc. again.

No, you've alluded to several factors. In fact "explaining" is one of the things that you've been sorely lacking on. Trying to get these factors out of you is like getting blood out of a stone.

The reason whales are protected is because commercial whaling was unsustainable. I suggest a history book.

Perhaps you could actually provide some actual evidence to your claims instead of telling me to do your research for you.

Again, if you're saying the critical decline in the World's whale populations wasn't due to commercial hunting, and that what the Japanese are doing is sustainable then prove it.

The bold is straw. The underlined is you attempting to shift the burden of proof.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

oh is that so? how do you know?

Because I've read the Animal Planet Forums (along with others). There are a few pro SS people on there but nowhere as many as you would think. The vast majority of the posts were about how dumb the SS people were and that they were rooting for the Whalers to win the "War".

I also talk to people IRL (I live in the San Francisco Bay Area) and with one exception (it turns out that she used to be a crew member of the Steve Irwin for over a year (or so she claimed, she did have on a Sea Shepherd shirt on though). I called her an idiot to her face and told her why) the ones who have seen the show all prefaced with the fact that they don't like whaling then went on to say pretty much the same thing about rooting for the whalers due to the actions of the SS

Then look here on JREF. Not exactly a hotbed of neanderthals yet most of the posts are not exactly what I would call pro-SS.

Take your pick. The SS do it to themselves. Before I saw the show I was on their side. Now, not so much.

 

[Checkmite]

This is so true. One of the greenpeace ships did this to us back in 1989. Bolts and & metal fittings were snapped and the gunwale was damaged. We spent close to 3 months in the yards getting repaired.

Wasn't Captain Shave-The-Whales here a member of Greenpeace back then? Might've been him; seems to fit his MO.