Home schooling anybody?

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

...It seems to me that in the school systems that most need fixing, parents may not have the attributes listed there. This is a bit of a stereotype on my part about inner city schools and low income families. I'd also dispute the "parents know best" part. We do have people trained in this stuff...

I agree with this, but it is not a criticism of one option, but of the real world (compared to a universe where altruistic philosopher-kings wait to be asked to rule). Any criticism of parents as uninformed applies to voters as well.
As Whole Language methods of reading instruction and discovery methods of Math instruction demonstrate, that "expertise" you mention is bogus.

...In the end though, a hybrid system as you linked to seems workable. It would tend to take those parents who cared most and give them a more relevant role. I have no problem with that part.

I guess one thing to keep an eye on would be how removing the top performers (I'm assuming they would do the best at homeschooling) would affect the school system overall -- but that's a leap on my part.

Thanks for the kind words. I would not worry about removing the top performers. It's likely to be parents of underserved children who would be first to head for the exits.

 

[marplots]

I agree with this, but it is not a criticism of one option, but of the real world (compared to a universe where altruistic philosopher-kings wait to be asked to rule). Any criticism of parents as uninformed applies to voters as well.

Not necessarily. Voters as a class have different priorities and, although they may have been parents, or may be parents in the future, may not be when they vote. This would have to be shown and I think the existence of voting blocks with different agendas argues that parents as a class could very well be less informed on education than voters at large. I can't show it though.

As Whole Language methods of reading instruction and discovery methods of Math instruction demonstrate, that "expertise" you mention is bogus.

Except that the criticisms are coming from experts in education as well, aren't they? I don't think you get to toss aside a whole field of knowledge because one camp disagrees with another. The best you could do is say, "It isn't settled."

 

[Pyrts]

So... I looked up some of the papers on homeschooling research, and what I see, frankly, troubles me. The statistics in favor of this are produced by a fairly biased group (homeschool associations) and papers I see tended to have some methodology flaws.

Like this one, from a homeschooling group: http://www.academicleadership.org/article/download/392/ALJ_ISSN1533-7812_8_1_392.pdf

Where the methodology was:

1. Parents contracted with the testing services to have tests administered to their children/students.
2. The testing services certified test administrators, some of whom were the students’ parents.
3. The testing services sent tests, answer forms, and a letter explaining how parents could access and complete the questionnaire to the test administrators.
4. Tests were returned to the testing services who then scored them or sent them to the test publishers for scoring. Unlike in most preceding studies, the large majority
of parents (i.e., the parents of 69.4% of the 11,739 students included in the study) did not know their students’ scores ahead of time; that is, before completing the
questionnaire and thus participating in the study.
5. Electronic copy of the test results and survey questionnaire results were sent from the testing services and the online survey administrator to the researcher. These
data sets were merged to provide 11,739 cases with matching identification numbers

Now, in public school, I know darn well who sat in what chair and took what test and how long it took and whether there was any interaction (asking for clarification, attempting to peek at books.) For this round, they just sent out tests and accepted them -- there's no evidence of who actually took the test and how they took it.

As a scientist, I find this result unsupported.

Furthermore, I find that some of the major studies on homeschooling come from the Bob Jones University and I believe they are not a neutral and objective source since they produce materials (Creationist and Biblically oriented) for homeschooling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Jones_University).

From (I hope this pastes correctly): http://ericae.net/digests/tm9905.pdf

In Spring 1998, 39,607 home school students contracted to
take the Iowa Tests of Basic Skills (ITBS; grades K-8) or the
Tests of Achievement and Proficiency (TAP; grades 9-12)
through Bob Jones University Press Testing and Evaluation
Service. Students were given an achievement test and their
parents were asked to complete a questionnaire entitled
“Voluntary Home School Demographic Survey.” A total of
20,760 students in 11,930 families provided useable
questionnaires with corresponding achievement tests. The
achievement test and questionnaire results were combined to
form the dataset used in the study.

For the record, I've seen the Bob Jones school material recently. Its content is appalling (the gist of the history book that I reviewed was that the Native Americans ran around and threw sticks at each other until the Christians came in to build this great nation and all the true progress in this nation was made through missionaries and the kind guidance of White Christian Males.)

As an Uppity Woman Anthropologist, I found their version of history to be blinkered with the same paternalistic assumptions as my own education (in 1950, when Blacks were still called "boy" and our shameful family secret was that my great-grandmother was Native American.)

From NCES, I find stats on home schooled children, but not age vs expected grade level: http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d10/tables/dt10_040.asp

And although I see a highly touted report that homeschooled students did better than the national average on the ACT, there's no actual set of statistics from the company on how many home schoolers took the test and what their score was. And what percentage of homeschooled kids actually apply to college.
http://www.act.org/newsroom/data/2006/charts/index.html

As a scientist, I'd like to know where that number came from and how it was reported (if self-reported, I imagine that parents whose kids did NOT score well are not going to run out with "We got a total score of 150 on both sections of the ACT!"

Lots of noise, lots of flawed reports, nothing concrete -- which makes me suspicious.

 

[Pyrts]

Without interruptions (paperwork from the administration, bathroom passes, etc.) and waiting for the slow students to catch up, almost every student will move faster when working independently than in a "class".

And what about the slow students?

Here you cite a very intelligent and obviously driven child, curious and with a strong sense of direction. But (as my literature professor said) "one swallow does not a summer make." One exemplar here does not make the case for "the slow students" -- and I think we could easily divide the set of "all students" into "those as fast as or faster than the median" and "those as slow as or slower than the median."

Anecdotes are charming, but I'd like to see some actual numbers from GREs/SATs/etc (not reported by a homeschool organization but by the testing body itself) -- the same kind of stats we see reported on pubic school students.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

...Except that the criticisms are coming from experts in education as well, aren't they? I don't think you get to toss aside a whole field of knowledge because one camp disagrees with another. The best you could do is say, "It isn't settled."

No, the criticisms did not come from within Colleges of Education but from professors of Psychology and Linguistics. This was another case where data did not matter to the political outcome. Superior credentials (Harvard and MIT PhDs), trumped inferior credentials (Penn State EdDs.). Of course, the data mattered to the real scholars, but so long as they were silent, EdDs in colleges of Education promoted the Whole Language fraud.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

So... I looked up some of the papers on homeschooling research, and what I see, frankly, troubles me. The statistics in favor of this are produced by a fairly biased group (homeschool associations) and papers I see tended to have some methodology flaws.¹...
Now, in public school, I know darn well who sat in what chair and took what test and how long it took and whether there was any interaction (asking for clarification, attempting to peek at books.)²
As a scientist...

For the record, I've seen the Bob Jones school material recently. Its content is appalling (the gist of the history book that I reviewed was that the Native Americans ran around and threw sticks at each other until the Christians came in to build this great nation and all the true progress in this nation was made through missionaries and the kind guidance of White Christian Males.)³As an Uppity Woman Anthropologist...
...
As a scientist...

1. The same criticism applies to much "research" from State-run colleges of Education.
2. Exactly this sort of fraud occurs widely in the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel's schools (the "public" schools). Your complaint boils down to the observation that parents have a conflict of interest when they evaluate their own children. So also to teachers in the cartel's schools (including Professors of Anthropology. It is a clear conflict of interest for a teacher to grade his/her own students.
3. As a scientist, don't you recognize inuendo as illegitimate argument? OK, Bob Jones is a fundamentalist institution: therefore they cheated on tests???? Really?

Lots of noise, lots of flawed reports, nothing concrete -- which makes me suspicious.[/QUOTE]

 

[marplots]

2. Exactly this sort of fraud occurs widely in the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel's schools (the "public" schools). Your complaint boils down to the observation that parents have a conflict of interest when they evaluate their own children. So also to teachers in the cartel's schools (including Professors of Anthropology. It is a clear conflict of interest for a teacher to grade his/her own students.

So we can agree than neutral, third party testing should be an element in either system then?

 

[Multivac]

Does anybody here home-school their kids, or are you happy to entrust them to complete strangers (teachers) for years of their impressionable young lives?

Can't think of any good reasons why people would want to home-school their kids. Reasons for not home-schooling my kids:

1) Insufficient knowledge to do a good job
2) Financially impossible
3) Lack of socialisation of the kids, who are stuck at home all week with the same person

To answer your questions: no, I don't home-school my kids and yes, they are both taught by strangers at school.

 

[Multivac]

I suspect it's easier for a parent to become engaged in his or her child's education while that child is attending public school (looking over and helping with homework, addressing questions the child has, ensuring your knowledge is up to the level necessary to give this sort of aid, etc.) than to completely take over the role that the teachers fill.

In which case, said parent should know first hand what sort of education his or her child is receiving, what sorts of values are being instilled, etc. and thus there's no issue at all with regards to "strangers" educating his or her child.

On the other hand, failing to become engaged in his or her child's education will likely have a greater affect on his or her child's ability to take advantage of that education than the quality (or lack thereof) of the teachers involved.

Exactly.

 

[Multivac]

If you home-school your kids, be sure to include essential sentences such as:
'Would you like fries with that'.
'Paper or plastic?'

You don't need to home-school your kids to incorporate these ideas into their education. When my daughters are reluctant to do homework, or put enough effort into their schoolwork, I sometimes tell them "that's fine, but you need to practice smiling while saying 'do you want fries with that' ".

 

[Pyrts]

1. The same criticism applies to much "research" from State-run colleges of Education.
2. Exactly this sort of fraud occurs widely in the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel's schools (the "public" schools).

What's your source for this claim of fraud?

Your complaint boils down to the observation that parents have a conflict of interest when they evaluate their own children. So also to teachers in the cartel's schools (including Professors of Anthropology. It is a clear conflict of interest for a teacher to grade his/her own students.

Except -- I was talking about national standardized test scores. The teachers who administer them don't grade them (and in fact, they're scored by machines.) In the standardized tests, the student goes to a room with no resources and takes a test within a certain amount of time. Monitors observe the room to make sure that everyone is actually taking the test within a certain amount of time without consulting others or using other resources.

The methodology in the report is "send test home, let parents send test back."

There is no point in the process where the test is taken under the same conditions as public school students -- administered by someone other than the teacher, taken in a fairly sterile an quiet environment, and with no contact permitted.

3. As a scientist, don't you recognize inuendo as illegitimate argument? OK, Bob Jones is a fundamentalist institution: therefore they cheated on tests???? Really?

Actually, they have a vested interest in proving that their materials are superior to public schooling because they're making a lot of money from it. I'm be equally suspicious of ANY organization's claims (and am) that their own evaluations of their own product shows that it produces the very best results.

I'd like to see an independent review, and I'd like to see where the data for some of their claims came from and how it was gathered.

That's why I search for independent confirmation. I'd like to see some hard numbers (for instance, I do believe the claim that SOME of the home schooled actually enter college with a lot of advanced placement credit (but so do some of the public schooled and some of the private schooled.) I'd like to see hard numbers from a source not as interested in promoting home schooling. I wonder how many of the home schooled actually go to college and how many (like the three I've seen closely) are so badly educated that they neither write nor read at their expected grade level.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

So we can agree than neutral, third party testing should be an element in either system then?

Yes, if "we" are involved. In a legal environment that protects children from abuse and otherwise leaves parents free to determine how their children shall spend the time between age 6 and age 18, "we" would have no say.

 

[marplots]

Yes, if "we" are involved. In a legal environment that protects children from abuse and otherwise leaves parents free to determine how their children shall spend the time between age 6 and age 18, "we" would have no say.

Do you also agree that public schooling should be an option for parents who think that is the best for their children?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

What's your source for this claim of fraud?¹...
Except -- I was talking about national standardized test scores. The teachers who administer them don't grade them (and in fact, they're scored by machines.) In the standardized tests, the student goes to a room with no resources and takes a test within a certain amount of time. Monitors observe the room to make sure that everyone is actually taking the test within a certain amount of time without consulting others or using other resources.²....
Actually, they have a vested interest in proving that their materials are superior to public schooling because they're making a lot of money from it. I'm be equally suspicious of ANY organization's claims (and am) that their own evaluations of their own product shows that it produces the very best results.³ I'd like to see an independent review⁴, and I'd like to see where the data for some of their claims came from and how it was gathered.

That's why I search for independent confirmation⁴. I'd like to see some hard numbers (for instance, I do believe the claim that SOME of the home schooled actually enter college with a lot of advanced placement credit (but so do some of the public schooled and some of the private schooled.) I'd like to see hard numbers from a source not as interested in promoting home schooling. I wonder how many of the home schooled actually go to college and how many (like the three I've seen closely) are so badly educated that they neither write nor read at their expected grade level.⁵

1. Numerous newspaper accounts of teachers, principals, and district officials altering test answer sheets or engaging in other manipulations, such as prior coaching of students using the test questions or excluding students whom they expect to test poorly.
2. That's the protocol. Whether teachers and other system employees follow it is the issue.
3. This applies to all institutions, including the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel's schools (the "public" schools). Are you familiar with Roger Axelrod's The Evolution of Cooperation?
4. "Independent" of what?
5. There is a large discussion here involving the construction and relevance of controlled experiments in public policy in a free society.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Do you also agree that public schooling should be an option for parents who think that is the best for their children?

Dunno what you mean by "should". By "public" you mean "government-operated", right? The government of a locality is the largest dealer in interpersonal violence in that locality (definition, after Weber). This is my basic text:...
Eduardo Zambrano
"Formal Models of Authority: Introduction and Political Economy Applications"
Rationality and Society, May 1999; 11: 115 - 138.

Aside from the important issue of how it is that a ruler may economize on communication, contracting and coercion costs, this leads to an interpretation of the state that cannot be contractarian in nature: citizens would not empower a ruler to solve collective action problems in any of the models discussed, for the ruler would always be redundant and costly. The results support a view of the state that is eminently predatory, (the ? MK.) case in which whether the collective actions problems are solved by the state or not depends on upon whether this is consistent with the objectives and opportunities of those with the (natural) monopoly of violence in society. This conclusion is also reached in a model of a predatory state by Moselle and Polak (1997). How the theory of economic policy changes in light of this interpretation is an important question left for further work.

Also...
Albert Einstein
"Force and Fear Have No Place in Education"

To me the worst thing seems to be for a school principally to work with methods of fear, force and artificial authority. Such treatment destroys the sound sentiments, the sincerity and self-confidence of the pupil. It produces the submissive subject. . . It is comparatively simple to keep the school free from this worst of all evils. Give into the power of the teacher the fewest possible coercive measures, so that the only source of the pupil's respect for the teacher is the human and intellectual qualities of the latter.

Also...
Albert Einstein
"Autobiographical Notes,"
Albert Einstein: Philosopher-Scientist, Paul Schilpp, ed. (1951), pp. 17-19

It is, in fact, nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction have not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry; for this delicate little plant, aside from stimulation, stands mainly in need of freedom; without this it goes to wreck and ruin without fail. It is a very grave mistake to think that the enjoyment of seeing and searching can be promoted by means of coercion and a sense of duty. To the contrary, I believe it would be possible to rob even a healthy beast of prey of its voraciousness, if it were possible, with the aid of a whip, to force the beast to devour continuously, even when not hungry, especially if the food, handed out under such coercion, were to be selected accordingly.

Also...
E.G. West
"Education Without the State"

What is needed is choice in education. School choice has not and will not lead to more productive education because the obsolete technology called ʺschool” is inherently inelastic. As long as ʺschoolʺ refers to the traditional structure of buildings and grounds with services delivered in boxes called classrooms to which customers must be transported by car or bus, ʺschool choiceʺ will be unable to meaningfully alter the quality or efficiency of education.

A compassionate society with have in its constitution a clause like the First Amendment to the US Constitution which would read: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of education".

 

[marplots]

Dunno what you mean by "should". By "public" you mean "government-operated", right?

Yes.

The government of a locality is the largest dealer in interpersonal violence in that locality (definition, after Weber). This is my basic text:...
Eduardo Zambrano
"Formal Models of Authority: Introduction and Political Economy Applications"
Rationality and Society, May 1999; 11: 115 - 138.Also...
Albert Einstein
"Force and Fear Have No Place in Education"Also...
Albert Einstein
"Autobiographical Notes,"
Albert Einstein: Philosopher-Scientist, Paul Schilpp, ed. (1951), pp. 17-19 Also...
E.G. West
"Education Without the State" A compassionate society with have in its constitution a clause like the First Amendment to the US Constitution which would read: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of education".

So, can I take that as a "no"? Parents would not be able to choose a government operated public school as an option, even if they think it the best way to educate their children?

I'm just trying to discover some of the limits of "parents know best."

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

So, can I take that as a "no"? Parents would not be able to choose a government operated public school as an option, even if they think it the best way to educate their children?
I'm just trying to discover some of the limits of "parents know best."

Reminds me of the Henny Youngman two-liner: "How's your wife?"
"Compared to what?"
Would I want to have my right leg amputated? Depends on the options. If the alternative is to remain healthy and bipedal, then "no". If the alternative is to die painfully of gangrege, then slice away.
The answer to the question: "What legal environment would you recommend to legislators who contemplate changes to the education statutes?" depends on the options that I am invited to entertain, and the rate at which I am supposed to discount time. In abstract, the education industry is a very unlikely candidate for State (government, generally) operation.

 

[Pyrts]

1. Numerous newspaper accounts of teachers, principals, and district officials altering test answer sheets or engaging in other manipulations, such as prior coaching of students using the test questions or excluding students whom they expect to test poorly.

And there are also more instances where we don't see any evidence of fraud. "Accounts" gives no sense of hard numbers about the scope and range of fraud. And if teaching to a test is fraud, then anyone who ever gave a test (reviewing material that was taught) should be branded a fraud, whether it was homeschooling or apprenticeships or anything else in the world. I believe homeschooled students also make use of coaching for the standardized tests such as the SAT.

2. That's the protocol. Whether teachers and other system employees follow it is the issue.

Have you seen evidence of widespread ignoring of the policies? I ask, because I've taken and administered these tests and know people who have also both taken and administered these exams. I have not heard of any case where students were handed a standardized exam such as the ACT, told to take it home, and come back with the results.

3. This applies to all institutions, including the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel's schools (the "public" schools). Are you familiar with Roger Axelrod's The Evolution of Cooperation?

Yes. I've explored Axelrod and game theory for some of my writings.

4. "Independent" of what?

As used in research, auditing and reporting on the raw data (and how much is unreported, etc) by a group who is not affiliated with or has a vested interest in what the group in question is doing. Sorry for the confusion -- it's a standard phrase in social science research.

5. There is a large discussion here involving the construction and relevance of controlled experiments in public policy in a free society.

Ah, see -- that's the beauty of it. You don't need experiments because society has already and is already performing experiments on itself. For example, you can easily compare morbidity and mortality statistics in the children of people who don't believe in vaccinating their children and the ones who do (controlling for where they live, age of parents, age of children, population densities, expected mortality, and so on and so forth.) One could assess homeschooling in such a way by many other measures, by investigating GED exams and so forth.

I can think of a dozen ways to do it. My observation is that although successes are trumpeted, the raw data is never presented so we can examine it and that no one has taken any of these alternate methods I just thought of to examine home schooling.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

And there are also more instances where we don't see any evidence of fraud.¹ "Accounts" gives no sense of hard numbers about the scope and range of fraud.² And if teaching to a test is fraud, then anyone who ever gave a test (reviewing material that was taught) should be branded a fraud, whether it was homeschooling or apprenticeships or anything else in the world. ³ I believe homeschooled students also make use of coaching for the standardized tests such as the SAT.⁴
Have you seen evidence of widespread ignoring of the policies? I ask, because I've taken and administered these tests and know people who have also both taken and administered these exams. I have not heard of any case where students were handed a standardized exam such as the ACT, told to take it home, and come back with the results.⁵
Yes. I've explored Axelrod and game theory for some of my writings.

As used in research, auditing and reporting on the raw data (and how much is unreported, etc) by a group who is not affiliated with or has a vested interest in what the group in question is doing. Sorry for the confusion -- it's a standard phrase in social science research.⁶
Ah, see -- that's the beauty of it. You don't need experiments because society has already and is already performing experiments on itself. For example, you can easily compare morbidity and mortality statistics in the children of people who don't believe in vaccinating their children and the ones who do (controlling for where they live, age of parents, age of children, population densities, expected mortality, and so on and so forth.) One could assess homeschooling in such a way by many other measures, by investigating GED exams and so forth.⁷I can think of a dozen ways to do it. My observation is that although successes are trumpeted, the raw data is never presented so we can examine it and that no one has taken any of these alternate methods I just thought of to examine home schooling.8

1. "Most of our students did not get raped in the halls yesterday" isn't much of a defense of school security.
2. Here.
3. Whether or not we agree here depends on what is taught.
4. Some might. I always thought coaching specifically for standardized tests was a waste of time. For the SAT (College Board) Math, I just teach Arithmetic and Algebra as usual, with a little simple Geometry mostly for the vocabulary. For English vocabulary and comprehension, read Science News. For writing, read Bertrand Russell or George Orwell.
5. See the linked material. I was a classroom teacher, so I did not see what went on elsewhere. Read of it, though.
6. That's the point of Axelrod. He implies that internal accountability mechanisms will fail. He implies that if the auditor and the instiitution audited have a stable relation, regulatory capture will occur.
7. This has been done in Alaska, where parents may enroll their children in "virtual" correspondence schools (loosely monitored homeschooling, in effect). I believe the intertemporal comparison (before the policy versus after the policy) establishes the success of the policy.
8. Right. I can suggest a few more.

 

[Pyrts]

1. "Most of our students did not get raped in the halls yesterday" isn't much of a defense of school security.

Nor is this an argument for home schooling. I can point to a lot of cases of child abuse by parents (death, maiming, starvation, as well as physical and mental abuse and a number of these cases are situations where there's a stay at home mom) as a reason for not home schooling.

Being at home does not mean being safe.

Being at home does NOT mean you're free from abuse and bullying.

2. Here.

Sorta off topic. We were talking about testing and home schooling and about the fact that it's the home school associations who are reporting the wonderful statistics.

3. Whether or not we agree here depends on what is taught.

Well, I was talking about the "standards" -- reading, writing, math, sex education, biology, history, etc.

4. Some might. I always thought coaching specifically for standardized tests was a waste of time. For the SAT (College Board) Math, I just teach Arithmetic and Algebra as usual, with a little simple Geometry mostly for the vocabulary. For English vocabulary and comprehension, read Science News. For writing, read Bertrand Russell or George Orwell.

Reading doesn't teach you to analyze or critique. The questions I saw required understanding and critique and reading dear old Bertie and George did not prepare for what was on the SAT. Or ACT. Or GRE.

5. See the linked material. I was a classroom teacher, so I did not see what went on elsewhere. Read of it, though.

As was I. Perhaps our differences in philosophy are due to the differences in the students we taught. Mine were mostly poor and mostly minority.

6. That's the point of Axelrod. He implies that internal accountability mechanisms will fail. He implies that if the auditor and the instiitution audited have a stable relation, regulatory capture will occur.

And that's why I was a little puzzled that you should cite him, since this very situation is occurring with the home schooling associations reporting their successes.

7. This has been done in Alaska, where parents may enroll their children in "virtual" correspondence schools (loosely monitored homeschooling, in effect). I believe the intertemporal comparison (before the policy versus after the policy) establishes the success of the policy.

Not really, because of the different methods of doing this. Until about 30 years ago, teachers were sent by the government to island communities and other communities to teach. I spoke with Native Americans who were raised under this system and what they said was that once the teachers no longer came, people moved to the cities so that their children could be educated. For the very few who live in inaccessible areas, home schooling is done though it is more similar to what college "distance education" is nowadays than "mom teaching and making the lesson plans from material she selects and she approves of."

Although as a teacher I couldn't select the textbooks that I taught from, at the same time all the material in the school was not biased by my own opinion or understanding or cultural preferences. This is not true in a homeschool situation, where a single person dictates the material used (which may be biased toward their own ability to teach.)

In fact, the Alaska State Government says:

What are the requirements for parents who wish to home school their children?

Children schooled at home by their parents or guardians are exempt from the Compulsory School Attendance Law. Parents are not required to register with the state or their local school district, and no testing or other requirements are placed on home schools not funded with public dollars. source: http://eed.alaska.gov/faq.html#A13

So they have no idea how well or how poorly these children are being educated. Nobody's measuring it.