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Founder of Sea Shepherd Arrested in Germany

Humans worship power. Seismosaurus skirts the morality of the issue by emphasizing what people are legally doing. Well, sometimes the law ain't right.



People are responsible for the foreseeable consequences of their actions, we agree. The current U.S. president has authorized numerous drone attacks known to take innocent human life. Yet, for these actions, Barack Obama's not generally referred to as human "scum" (policies broadening health coverage are more likely to trigger the label, but that only shows how upside down the world is). In fact, he's a Nobel Peace Prize recipient.

Watson and crew pursue identifiable ships, not people hiding in bumble-**** Pakistan. The Sea Shepard has successfully disrupted attacks without a single loss of human life (while presumably saving many whales). It's funny how frequently critics say "that by some miracle" liberationists have not yet killed anyone. The very same people will hem and haw when it comes to defending mass-killing by their governments.

Anyway, these liberationists are not "scum". They're heroes. The problem is humans are awed by power, not morality.

:clap:

I'm not as good with words as you that's for sure!
Well said.
 
Humans worship power. Seismosaurus skirts the morality of the issue by emphasizing what people are legally doing. Well, sometimes the law ain't right.



People are responsible for the foreseeable consequences of their actions, we agree. The current U.S. president has authorized numerous drone attacks known to take innocent human life. Yet, for these actions, Barack Obama's not generally referred to as human "scum" (policies broadening health coverage are more likely to trigger the label, but that only shows how upside down the world is). In fact, he's a Nobel Peace Prize recipient.

Watson and crew pursue identifiable ships, not people hiding in bumble-**** Pakistan. The Sea Shepard has successfully disrupted attacks without a single loss of human life (while presumably saving many whales). It's funny how frequently critics say "that by some miracle" liberationists have not yet killed anyone. The very same people will hem and haw when it comes to defending mass-killing by their governments.

Anyway, these liberationists are not "scum". They're heroes. The problem is humans are awed by power, not morality.

We don't need another hero.
 
...shows the crew being aware of and indeed watching the approaching whaler from a significant distance as it closed, and at no time taking any action to evade the obviously on-coming ship.

FWIW, it seems to show that the Ady was also slowly motoring forward on a steady course the entire time. The crew seems to have something of a "it's not like they're actually going to hit us" demeanor as they and the whaler continued to close.

Looking at other videos of the "Sea Shepherds" in action, it seems to me that one of their harassment tactics is attempting to force the whalers to change course by repeatedly getting in their way and threatening collisions. I believe this was such a case. The Ady didn't intend to collide with the whaler; it was supposed to pose a hazard and the whaler was supposed to have to turn to avoid it. This time it just didn't work out that way.

Frankly it was only a matter of time, IMO.


Goodbye Ady Gil.

Too bad your captain was an idiot.
 
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It was a neat-looking thing; but I confess I've always been more partial to sail than motorboats.
 
Terms like "lynch mob" are commonly invoked in such situations.

Love this weaselly passive-aggressive language. People use that term, but YOU'RE not using that term, right? Sea Shepard functions like a lynch mob, except without the lynching. Fair enough.

I'm rather confident the Sea Shepard people do not really care about international law. They care more about the welfare of whales. Before we get into misguided categorical imperatives, a little bit of vigilantism can be a good thing.

It's too bad all the great moral issues have already been decided. I'm sure that fifty years ago, everyone here would have said "What's the big deal with gay marriage??" Going back further each and everyone would have illegally harbored Jews, plotted against Hitler, worked to stop the slave trade. It's just such a shame how all these brave, far-sighted people are wasted in the year 2012. Well, at least we can rage against the moron vigilantes. We know they're not serious thinkers. If they were serious thinkers they'd be hunched over keyboards.
 
We don't need another hero.

Sometimes I appreciate your one-liners. This is one of those times.

But your avatar still sucks. I'll permit myself a small measure of satisfaction in the knowledge that the second greatest living Beatle is a liberal vegan hypocrite.
 
I'm sure the International Whaling Commission thought that's exactly what they were doing when they made it a friggin SANCTUARY for crying out loud.

The LAW doesn't matter to these scumbags.

Since they are obeying the letter of the law, I suspect it matters quite a bit to them. If the law were irrelevant to them then they wouldn't bother to talk about research - they'd just say screw it and hunt whales.

But they do it the way they do it because it exploits a legal loophole, which is a legal thing to do. And the correct response to a legal loophole is to modify the law to close the hole - not to run around acting as a vigilante.

Seriously, if businesses employ tax loopholes would you endorse simply stealing money off them? If a criminal gets off on a technicality would you endorse simply lynching him out back of the courthouse instead?

What the Japanese are doing is within the law. Change the law if you don't like that.
 
It's not questionable. That's pretty obvious. Humans have actually died from the types of mistakes and actions that SS has engaged in, even though the specific acts of SS haven't happened to result in any human deaths yet.

Exactly. Which is why you need to feign skepticism about them having saved any whales, ever, in order to have anything resembling a sensible argument. No humans dead, lots of whales probably saved, sounds like a good deal even if the lives of some humans were risked.

No, only if one considers that to the people bombing the clinics they are, then the analogy is apt. To them, they are saving human lives so rather than go through the legal work they commit acts of violence, just like the SS people. No need to equate the desire to eat a specific meat. No analogy is equivalent in every way. Utterly idiotic would be to expect otherwise.

To the SS people, saving some whales in a violent manner is more important than the wishes of the whalers. To me, saving humans from the sex trade or murder by their dictators is worth that tactic.

The people bombing abortion clinics think they are heroes, sure. Sea Shepherd think they are heroes, sure. However unless you subscribe to some nutty form of moral relativism then what those groups think about themselves is utterly irrelevant. The only thing that's important is what rational, moral agents think about them.

Since I already explained to you why rational people should see abortion clinic bombers differently to Sea Shepherd, this argument of yours is nonsensical.

Poisoning the well is more childish than what you accuse me of.

If you don't like juvenile arguments being pointed out, don't bring "the ends don't justify the means!" to a grown-up discussion.

Drivel. Appeal to the positions and opinions of other experts and advocates in the same field, not to popularity and certainly not to stupidity.

Since when are unspecified "people" a source of moral authority? If there is a sensible argument to be made you can make it without trying to claim that the view is held by unspecified "people". If not, then appealing to the authority of unspecified "people" is vacuous.

No, from a skeptical perspective a 'limit' is the max, not the goal. From a skeptical perspective other possible causes must be considered before declaring an element causal. From a skeptical perspective there are other forces at work that could be confounding factors such as the pressure from other groups than the assclowns at SS.

Any time you have relevant evidence instead of uninformed, armchair skepticism just post it right here.

Until then it looks like they are achieving morally valuable ends using risks that are proportional to and acceptable given the cause. Whereas the whalers put human lives at risk in a far more immediate and direct manner so that they could go on whaling, which puts them on a far, far lower moral level than Sea Shepherd.
 
Since they are obeying the letter of the law, I suspect it matters quite a bit to them. If the law were irrelevant to them then they wouldn't bother to talk about research - they'd just say screw it and hunt whales.

But they do it the way they do it because it exploits a legal loophole, which is a legal thing to do. And the correct response to a legal loophole is to modify the law to close the hole - not to run around acting as a vigilante.

Seriously, if businesses employ tax loopholes would you endorse simply stealing money off them? If a criminal gets off on a technicality would you endorse simply lynching him out back of the courthouse instead?

What the Japanese are doing is within the law. Change the law if you don't like that.

A wonderfully naive sentiment, but sometimes the laws don't change just because we don't like them, sometimes you've got to smash up an offshore or two. If you're lucky, sometimes it takes an all out civil war. ;)

Of course I hesitate to encourage this Watson fellow. He's on a mission to save whales. If some primitives want to hunt whales in a traditionally sustainable manner I don't have a problem with it.
 
Exactly. Which is why you need to feign skepticism about them having saved any whales, ever, in order to have anything resembling a sensible argument. No humans dead, lots of whales probably saved, sounds like a good deal even if the lives of some humans were risked.

Asserting arguments. I'm not skeptical that they haven't saved any whales ever, put down the straw. One need not believe that to have a sensible argument regarding the cost/benefit of SS actions especially in comparing them to other actions that may have saved more whales.


The people bombing abortion clinics think they are heroes, sure. Sea Shepherd think they are heroes, sure. However unless you subscribe to some nutty form of moral relativism then what those groups think about themselves is utterly irrelevant. The only thing that's important is what rational, moral agents think about them.

Since I already explained to you why rational people should see abortion clinic bombers differently to Sea Shepherd, this argument of yours is nonsensical.

That's right, just calling it nonsense is a rational response. They both believe they are justified in their actions. We agree that the bombers are not justified in their actions. We disagree that about if the SS are justified. You assert this is obvious because whales are moral agents. I've already explained why a rational discussing could be had on that, but you would rather insinuate that I'm not a rational person and speaking nonsense. Assert away, don't let me distract you way up on your high horse.


If you don't like juvenile arguments being pointed out, don't bring "the ends don't justify the means!" to a grown-up discussion.

That is your argument! I didn't assert that it therefore is invalid, but you'd rather hide behind your name calling and assertions than actually consider it. And you call my argument juvenile.


Since when are unspecified "people" a source of moral authority? If there is a sensible argument to be made you can make it without trying to claim that the view is held by unspecified "people". If not, then appealing to the authority of unspecified "people" is vacuous.

I'm sorry, are you not following the thread? These people were cited upthread, and include former members of the Sea Shepherds. And more assertions about what is sensible along with hand waving.



Any time you have relevant evidence instead of uninformed, armchair skepticism just post it right here.

Until then it looks like they are achieving morally valuable ends using risks that are proportional to and acceptable given the cause. Whereas the whalers put human lives at risk in a far more immediate and direct manner so that they could go on whaling, which puts them on a far, far lower moral level than Sea Shepherd.

You assert the SS have been responsible for saving with greater effectiveness than other forces and you claim I'm the armchair skeptic for considering confounding factors? Pull the other one.
 
Love this weaselly passive-aggressive language. People use that term, but YOU'RE not using that term, right?

Yeah I'm using it. I posted it, didn't I?

I'm rather confident the Sea Shepard people do not really care about international law. They care more about the welfare of whales.

But they claim to care about international law even as they violate it, which makes them hypocrites. I'm happy that you have a special Seeing Stone that tells you what they really think; but I'm afraid I have to suffer with going by what they say publicly.

Before we get into misguided categorical imperatives, a little bit of vigilantism can be a good thing.

If you think so.

It's too bad all the great moral issues have already been decided. I'm sure that fifty years ago, everyone here would have said "What's the big deal with gay marriage??" Going back further each and everyone would have illegally harbored Jews, plotted against Hitler, worked to stop the slave trade. It's just such a shame how all these brave, far-sighted people are wasted in the year 2012. Well, at least we can rage against the moron vigilantes. We know they're not serious thinkers. If they were serious thinkers they'd be hunched over keyboards.

Wow that's really interesting. I wonder if those true heroic brave people who hid Jews from Hitler would've entertained an exception of a certain number of Jew-burnings by native Germans, or those Underground Railroad conductors of the Civil War area would have approved of a certain small amount of slave owning and trading as long as it was done in a "sustainable and responsible manner".
 
A wonderfully naive sentiment, but sometimes the laws don't change just because we don't like them, sometimes you've got to smash up an offshore or two. If you're lucky, sometimes it takes an all out civil war. ;)

You know, I can't recall any laws being changed as a result of vigilantism. Unless you count tougher penalties for vigilante behavior that is.
 
So the Allies were hypocrites for killing people to stop people from killing people? I don't want to be a skeptic if it means allowing genocide for fear of being called a hypocrite.

Human slavery done responsibly is called "minimum wage" ;)
 
You know, I can't recall any laws being changed as a result of vigilantism. Unless you count tougher penalties for vigilante behavior that is.

Because having your boat sunk by a Japanese whaling boat is "vigilantism" :boggled:

I'm pretty sure you're confusing activism with vigilantism. Call me when they start keel hauling Japanese whalers. :D
 
So the Allies were hypocrites for killing people to stop people from killing people?

It is my understanding that the Allies were killing people to stop them from taking control of land; so no hypocrisy.

It is my understanding that the existence and extent of the Holocaust (if that's what you're referring to) was not generally known until close to the end of the war.
 
Commercialism is a matter or scale. It's pretty obvious when you see the other traditional hunts around the World what the Japanese are doing is commercial.

So the Icelanders and Norwegians aren't undertaking commercial hunts?

I don't think you'd let a kid convince you a bazooka and a bottle rocket were the same thing despite a small matter of scale. Unfortunately that's the same logic I see being applied here when people say "Well I don't see the difference".

Which is why I've said the only difference is scale.

If some primitives want to hunt whales in a traditionally sustainable manner I don't have a problem with it.

So the Japanese can't hunt whales in a sustainable manner?
 
So the Icelanders and Norwegians aren't undertaking commercial hunts?

Why do you think people don't have just as much of a problem with whaling when Icelanders and Norwegians do it? I've got just as much of a problem whoever is doing it.

This seems a weird topic to harp on.
 
Yeah I'm using it. I posted it, didn't I?

You did, albeit in weaselly language.

But they claim to care about international law even as they violate it, which makes them hypocrites. I'm happy that you have a special Seeing Stone that tells you what they really think; but I'm afraid I have to suffer with going by what they say publicly.

Such foolish inconsistencies are the hobgoblins of small minds. Labeling others hypocrites absolves you from moral introspection. Anyway, those nasty civil rights protestors broke laws while proposing new ones. They clearly had no respect for the government.

Wow that's really interesting. I wonder if those true heroic brave people who hid Jews from Hitler would've entertained an exception of a certain number of Jew-burnings by native Germans, or those Underground Railroad conductors of the Civil War area would have approved of a certain small amount of slave owning and trading as long as it was done in a "sustainable and responsible manner".

We should probably take a poll of the unblinded-by-history people here. (And of course there were reformers who thought slavery should be tolerated but favored stricter enforcement for "Masters" who sadistically beat their men, people who argued Civil Unions are a useful alternative to the sacred institution of "marriage," and those who didn't mind Hitler so long as kept to more traditional borders).
 

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