Home schooling anybody?

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

It is exactly the same logic.

a) It might be if we had a test that does for college what the GED does for high school.
b) College is specialized. There are no jobs that people conventionally schooled through high school can do that homeschoolers cannot do. This is not the case with Electrical Engineering.

 

[This is The End]

Is this an attack on the OP or an attack on home-schooling?

Neither.

If it's the latter, I assume links to large studies comparing regular and home schooling will be forthcoming.

Regular? By that are you referring to public, private, Waldorf, Montessori, or Bob Jones U? Pre-kindergarten? Primary? Secondary? Public in the US sense, or the UK? Public (assuming US) in a well-funded district, or one that is less so?

Now does my question make more sense, or would you still prefer to view it as a personal attack on the OP or an attack on home-schooling, rather than as an attack on a vague claim without context?

I'm not sure if I can tell you took offense, or if I am just reading it into your reply.

If you did I apologize.

I'm sure it would be up to the large studies to decide of course. Instead of large studies perhaps I should have said large, properly designed, studies.

If it is US education, and since about 90% of the kids in the US go to public school, then I assume "regular" means "average" and "average" means "public".

Since it is a properly designed study I'm sure they would take into account whether or not said public school is in a "well-funded district" or not. Though I am not sure that makes that much of a difference in the quality of the education each child receives....

 

[marplots]

b) College is specialized. There are no jobs that people conventionally schooled through high school can do that homeschoolers cannot do.

Wouldn't this depend on the quality and type of homeschooling though? I thought you were advocating customized education as an advantage of homeschooling? If it is just going to give a comparable education, I don't see why it wouldn't then be simply an issue of money. And if that's so, then some kind of group teaching seems like a necessity.

I thought of a work around. If you did it over the Internet, you could simultaneously individualize it and maintain standards. There might still be problems -- for example, how would someone learn to be a professional basketball player? But I can see how the Internet would get you both the efficiencies and the expertise needed while still allowing for individually guided instruction. And it could be publicly funded to boot. Lots of win in that idea.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

...I thought you were advocating customized education as an advantage of homeschooling?¹ If it is just going to give a comparable education, I don't see why it wouldn't then be simply an issue of money.² And if that's so, then some kind of group teaching seems like a necessity.

I thought of a work around. If you did it over the Internet, you could simultaneously individualize it and maintain standards. There might still be problems -- for example, how would someone learn to be a professional basketball player?³ But I can see how the Internet would get you both the efficiencies and the expertise needed while still allowing for individually guided instruction. And it could be publicly funded to boot. Lots of win in that idea.

1. Parent control of education enhances the prospects of individualization. That's one advantage over conventional schooling.
2. There's also the advantage of reduced compulsion.
E.O. Wilson
Naturalist

Why do I tell you this little boy's story of medusas, rays, and sea monsters, nearly sixty years after the fact? Because it illustrates, I believe, how a naturalist is created. A child comes to the edge of deep water with a mind prepared for wonder....Hands-on experience at the critical time, not systematic knowledge, is what counts in the making of a naturalist. Better to be an untutored savage for a while, not to know the names or anatomical detail. Better to spend long stretches of time just searching and dreaming. (p. 11-12)... Adults forget the depths of languor into which the adolescent mind descends with ease. They are prone to undervalue the mental growth that occurs during daydreaming and aimless wandering. When I focused on the ponds and stream lying before me, I abandoned all sense of
time.(p. 86-87).

3. How are team sports and homeschooling incompatible? Tim Tebow was homeschooled.

 

[marplots]

3. How are team sports and homeschooling incompatible? Tim Tebow was homeschooled.

Ah, you make my case. From wiki on Timmy T:

In 1996, legislation was passed in Florida allowing homeschooled students to compete in local high school sporting events. The law specifies that homeschooled students may participate on the team of the local school in the school district in which they live.

So... he was homeschooled in everything except that one thing that turned out to be his career choice.

I suppose if mom popped out enough babies you could mount a football team.

 

[mijopaalmc]

Wasn't there a time before public education was available? Aren't there countries where it still isn't? That's one big pool of homeschooling there. How's that working out?

It's more likely to have been one big pool of no schooling. Keep in mind that social expctatiobs about the level of general education changed in the mid-20th. Before the 1970s not very many people were expected nor was there necessarily a perception that people were entitled to post secondary education.

 

[marplots]

It's more likely to have been one big pool of no schooling. Keep in mind that social expctatiobs about the level of general education changed in the mid-20th. Before the 1970s not very many people were expected nor was there necessarily a perception that people were entitled to post secondary education.

Exactly. And as far as societal expectations about education norms have moved, that far should pubic education be offered. Unless the intent is to achieve the same result with homeschooling, but to do that you'd need more supervision and standardization than the independent-minded would put up with.

The purpose of a customized education is, after all, the ability to make it different than the norm. Whether that "different" is better or not depends on who is doing the job.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

...as far as societal expectations about education norms have moved, that far should pubic education be offered. Unless the intent is to achieve the same result with homeschooling, but to do that you'd need more supervision and standardization than the independent-minded would put up with. The purpose of a customized education is, after all, the ability to make it different than the norm. Whether that "different" is better or not depends on who is doing the job.

You use the term "public" without qualm. Apparently by "public education" you mean "schools operated by government employees". I do not see why anyone expects superior results from that. If a contract with the State confers some magic, then let's simply employ every parent for $1.00/year and repeal subsidies and compulsory attendance laws.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

I suppose if mom popped out enough babies you could mount a football team.

All you need is neighbors.

 

[DallasDad]

Am I the only one bothered by the lack of comma in the thread's title? Every time I see it, I want to reply, "No, I'm not."

 

[marplots]

You use the term "public" without qualm. Apparently by "public education" you mean "schools operated by government employees". I do not see why anyone expects superior results from that. If a contract with the State confers some magic, then let's simply employ every parent for $1.00/year and repeal subsidies and compulsory attendance laws.

That's just the point. Superior results are not the goal. If that were the goal, we'd all be expending as many resources as possible on getting our kids all the high-power education we could. The goal is a standardized minimum, a minimum the voting public agrees is necessary to participate in society.

Public goods are rarely about exceptionalism and this shouldn't be your yardstick. As with other public goods, you want a road that you can drive on at a reasonable price -- if you want the best road possible, you build one yourself or pay to drive on a racetrack. The purpose of a public road is to meet a minimum standard for getting from here to there, not to achieve the best possible outcome.

I think you'll find much the same idea in play for public health care, food stamps, welfare benefits and many other things the government is involved in. The only ready exception that comes to mind is the military during wartime. There the goal is to be better, and sometimes much, much better, than the opponent.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

That's just the point. Superior results are not the goal. If that were the goal, we'd all be expending as many resources as possible on getting our kids all the high-power education we could. The goal is a standardized minimum, a minimum the voting public agrees is necessary to participate in society.

Public goods are rarely about exceptionalism and this shouldn't be your yardstick. As with other public goods, you want a road that you can drive on at a reasonable price -- if you want the best road possible, you build one yourself or pay to drive on a racetrack. The purpose of a public road is to meet a minimum standard for getting from here to there, not to achieve the best possible outcome.

I think you'll find much the same idea in play for public health care, food stamps, welfare benefits and many other things the government is involved in. The only ready exception that comes to mind is the military during wartime. There the goal is to be better, and sometimes much, much better, than the opponent.

1. This "you" and "we" business is unclear. I suspect that you rely more on the concept of "representation (in government)" than I do.
2. You appear unclear about the definition of "public goods".
3. Individuals have goals and "purposes" (intentions). Groups have "purpose" only to the extent that the individuals in the group further their individual purposes through collective action. The "purpose" of a non-human object like a road is the "purpose" of the people who created the road. A bridge to nowhere, a commuter rail project, or a solar panel manufacturing facility may have no further "purpose" than harvesting tax subsidies.
I will rephrase the question: Why expect a tax-subsidized, State-(that is, government, generally) operated school system to outperform (that's where "superior" came from) a voucher-subsidized competitive market in education services or an unsubsidized competitive market in education services?

 

[marplots]

I will rephrase the question: Why expect a tax-subsidized, State-(that is, government, generally) operated school system to outperform (that's where "superior" came from) a voucher-subsidized competitive market in education services or an unsubsidized competitive market in education services?

It won't necessarily do so.
I would point out a few differences though. The "customer" is different. In the competitive market, I assume the parents would have more say than they do now. They would be the dominant customer. But as a social institution, society at large is the customer -- even if I have no children in school, I still get a say on what I think constitutes a good education.

A second difference is the ability of the providers to shape the market to their benefit by marketing to the decision makers directly. They have an incentive to do so because that's where their money comes from. Now, you may say that's parallel to the teacher's union advocating for higher salaries, and that's true, but their ability to sell their product doesn't seem to match that of, say, GM or Ford.

Another critical difference is the ability to opt out and not purchase any education at all for your child. The assumption seems to be a naive reliance on parental caring leading to responsible action for the benefit of their child. I don't think this can be relied on, either because of ignorance or family dynamics.

Another problem is how we should measure performance. I am no expert, but I believe there are serious problems with this now. In the case of privatized colleges (the online degree mill sort) there was a rush to pump out degrees for cash -- we'd want to avoid this somehow.

All that said, I don't see any fundamental reason why education couldn't be privatized. I'd want it to be well regulated and still mandatory though. I should point out that privatized is somewhat different than homeschooled. There are already examples of private education that seem to work well under a free market paradigm. Trucking schools are an example. They teach you how to drive a semi. This is then tested by the state and a license issued. It seems to work well.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

It won't necessarily do so...

I'd say you aced the this version of the political Turing test (composing a sensible argument for the other side). My only complaint is here:...
(Marplots): "Another critical difference is the ability to opt out and not purchase any education at all for your child. The assumption seems to be a naive reliance on parental caring leading to responsible action for the benefit of their child. I don't think this can be relied on, either because of ignorance or family dynamics."

Why can't teachers opt out, collect a salary and not do their jobs? I know of two blatant cases where this happened: one (Campbell HS) involved two teachers combining Social Studies classes and showing movies all year. One signed in for both and one stayed home. The scam lasted more than one school year. Another involved practically the entire Sp-ed department at Waianae HS, where sp-ed teachers were 1/2 time sp-ed classes and 1/2 time one-on-one with sp-ed students in mainstream classes. Since they had no routine with the mainstreamed students, they could serve the 1/2 time in sp-ed and go home. They did.
There's always political indoctrination in Social Studies (remember Jay Bennish?).
Then, there's the entire US K-12 school system, compared to Singapore, Hong Kong, Korea, or the Netherlands.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

I don’t understand home schooling. I can’t see how it is possible. I’m a pretty smart person. I have a very good education. I’m very knowledgeable on many subjects. Both my parents were teachers (still alive, but retired). But I cannot imaging trying to home school someone.

If I had to spend eight hours a day teaching a kid calculus, French, computer programming, medieval European history, playing the trumpet, physics, economics, and American literature, I would not know what to do. That would be typical for the courses I took—plus physical education, health, and driver’s education.

Each class would be an hour (or less) and I would need at least an hour (probably more) to prepare for each class. And that would be just getting by the skin of my teeth. 16 hours a day. But then you need planning and grading. And eating and cleaning. So you are running probably 20-22 hours a day. But you can’t live on 2 hours sleep. But you have the weekends. Push some of the work to the weekends to get ahead. Spend 10 hours a day. That gets you 20 hours in on the weekends. So now you are down to 16-18 hours on the weekdays and 10 hours on the weekends. So you are only putting in a 100 hour work week. With no leisure time. And pulling this off just barely.

Sounds tough. I would think almost impossible. My calculus teacher couldn’t teach French. My French teacher couldn’t teach physics. My physics teacher couldn’t teach American literature.

The idea that any one teacher could effectively teach all of these courses (and this is just one semester) is unreasonable. The idea that a parent, not trained as a teacher, can pull this off is absurd. (Yes, there are some extreme exceptions where it has been done. And that those cases are rare proves the rule that it cannot be commonly done. And I would question the completeness of the education in those cases. And the opportunities.)

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

I don’t understand home schooling. I can’t see how it is possible...But I cannot imaging trying to home school someone...But then you need planning and grading...I would think almost impossible. My calculus teacher couldn’t teach French. My French teacher couldn’t teach physics. My physics teacher couldn’t teach American literature...
The idea that any one teacher could effectively teach all of these courses (and this is just one semester) is unreasonable. The idea that a parent, not trained as a teacher, can pull this off is absurd...

And yet, it works, and homeschoolers typically test years ahead of conventionally schooled students. Most of your objections have been addressed already (e.g., here, here) in this thread. The grading objection is new. A lot of homeschoolers don't bother with grades.

Here's a story: Some years ago, a professor of Library Science came to the UH for a sabbatical semester. She brought her 14-year-old daughter, who had been attending a plush private school on the East Coast. Since she had heard of Hawaii's government-operated schools and wanted no part of that, and since she did not want to jump through Punahou's hoops for one semester, she decided to homeschool her daughter. She appealed to her daughter's school for a semester's worth of curriculum, hired a History Master's candidate to teach History and English two hours a week and a Physiology Master's candidate to teach Math and Science three hours a week, and gave her kid the keys to her office. She (mom) told me that her daughter typically finishd with coursework before noon and had the run of the UH the rest of the day. She (daughter) took craft classes at the student center. At the end of the semester, the daughter did not want to return to her plush private school, saying that school was a waste of time. Without interruptions (paperwork from the administration, bathroom passes, etc.) and waiting for the slow students to catch up, almost every student will move faster when working independently than in a "class".

Parents do not need to know everything. There are these amazing resources that knowledgable insiders call "books". A loving mother can teach a child to read (i.e., decode the phonetic alphabet) before that child can speak; the eyes, ears, and brain function before the child can coordinate the diaphraghm, larynx, and tongue. I taught the notation of Set Theory and Logic to a very bright third grader, who was homeschooled (self-taught, mostly) after 7th grade, took the GRE (Math) at 17, got accepted to grad school, and finished his MS (Math) before he turned 19. Once a child knows how to read at perhaps a typical 6th grade level and compute to the level of Alg. I (equation of the line in 2-space), doable by age 10 or so if you start early enough, parents don't really need to do more than provide books, equipment, and love.

 

[marplots]

Then, there's the entire US K-12 school system, compared to Singapore, Hong Kong, Korea, or the Netherlands.

This is probably the nut of the issue. We recognize flaws in the current system and see where things are being done better. I just don't see homeschooling as a general solution, even if it may be fine in some cases.

Do Singapore, Hong King, Korea (I assume South) and the Netherlands offer public education to get these results we admire or are those students homeschooled?

It becomes a matter of junking the system or trying to modify it.

 

[marplots]

(lots cut to get to this part)
The idea that any one teacher could effectively teach all of these courses (and this is just one semester) is unreasonable.

Ah... but we expect a child to learn all that you mentioned in the same single semester. Although I agree with your analysis, in practice, a parent only has to stay one lesson ahead of the child.

Arguably, no expertise is required at all if the educational role of the parent is merely supervisory. You could do it with computer generated lessons, testing and scoring. The parent's role would then be as an adviser and grader. Still, to answer out-of-the-box questions, you'd want discussion groups or access to some expertise. I have seen peer groups used in this way for online learning -- along with complaints about the discussion groups devolving into flighty chat sessions.

Still, I think it could be done.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

This is probably the nut of the issue. We recognize flaws in the current system and see where things are being done better. I just don't see homeschooling as a general solution¹, even if it may be fine in some cases. Do Singapore, Hong King, Korea (I assume South) and the Netherlands offer public education to get these results we admire or are those students homeschooled?² It becomes a matter of junking the system or trying to modify it.³

1. We have different conceptions of "homeschooling". If you understand the term to mean "Instruction which parents provide directly at their residence" and I take the term to encompass everything that parents use outside of formal K-12 school, including apprenticeships and unguided free time, we discuss such different things that "argee" and "disagree" don't apply. Does Magdalena Kozena's aria from Handel's "Joshua" argee or disagree with the largo movement of Bach's Violin concerto in E?
2. In Hong Kong, about 90% of students take tax subsidies to private schools. In the Netherlands, close to 70% of students attend schools other than schools operated by government employees. Singapore has an extensive system of independent schools. I don't know much about Korea, although I tutored (Math) a Korean fifth grader who was in Hawaii for a year for English immersion. She had been in a G/T program at some Korean university and would have to test back into it when she went home. She understood proof by induction immediately. Her mother was a cousin of the mother of the homeschooled kid whom I mentioned above, who got his MS (Math) before he turned 19.
3. I prefer an incremental approach to systemic reform over shock therapy. Incrementalism allows continual assessment and backtracking. The downside of tinkering is twofold: reform is urgent and incrementalism offers to insiders abundant opportunities for sabotage. I prefer Parent Performance Contracting as the compromise strategy.

 

[marplots]

I prefer Parent Performance Contracting as the compromise strategy.

That's not bad. I'd take issue with this part though:

"Numerous lines of evidence indicate that overall system performance improves with enhanced parent control. Parent control is critical, as parent control places decisions in the hands of those who know children best and are most reliably concerned for their well-being."

It seems to me that in the school systems that most need fixing, parents may not have the attributes listed there. This is a bit of a stereotype on my part about inner city schools and low income families. I'd also dispute the "parents know best" part. We do have people trained in this stuff.

If the argument is to have the professional educators justify things to parents, I could go for that. I'm not talking about a complete distancing of education from parental input. I do think standards are necessary -- and I actually can't see parents who do care about their kids opting out of such standards.

In the end though, a hybrid system as you linked to seems workable. It would tend to take those parents who cared most and give them a more relevant role. I have no problem with that part.

I guess one thing to keep an eye on would be how removing the top performers (I'm assuming they would do the best at homeschooling) would affect the school system overall -- but that's a leap on my part.