• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

Status
Not open for further replies.
Lee means GZ does not know initially, so it can't be the reason for the interest, imo. "He looks black." is an indication that GZ is initially not sure of TM's race.

The fact that GZ later says "He's a black male" does not make Lee a liar.

Imo, the 911 calls do indeed show that GZ couldn't have been racial profiling.

Or "hoodie" profiling, either, since the 911 calls also indicate that TM didn't have his hood up at first.

While the nation's focus on racial profiling is seemingly centered on George Zimmerman's encounter with Trayvon Martin, in 2011 New York Police did more "stop and frisks" on young black males than the total number of young black males in New York City.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47401622/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/#.T687NVKiYqw

ETA - I should have mentioned that in the first three months of this year, there have been over 200,000 stop and frisks, up 10% over 2011.
 
Last edited:
No worries. Being insulting and taking cheap shots is easy. Actually supporting one's position through rational discourse can prove to be more difficult.

If you display your ignorance and just assert things to be the way you think should be, and yet manage to provide nothing from any sources, like you know police journal or statutes, then all you have is empty rhetoric.

So where is your research? Where are you substantiating facts to your assertion that things should just be done your way? Or will you admit it is just your personal opinion?
 
I really don't understand the reasoning behind responses like the one above.

I would say the evidence shows Zimmerman was trying to locate TM, failed to do so, and was heading back to his truck when TM pursued and confronted GZ. It was at that point TM hit Zimmerman and knocked him to the ground.

To the best of my knowledge that is Zimmerman's statement, and at this point in time I haven't heard of any evidence to refute it. He was interviewed by three different law enforcement agencies, did a reenactment of the shooting with police, and still wasn't arrested.

Anyway, for those who insist on using the word "pursued", it more closely fits Z's story of Martin closing on him from behind than it does Z trying, but failing, to locate TM.
You are the one who insists on using the word 'pursued'. That semantic quibbling serves no purpose.

No matter what descriptive terms you choose, Zimmerman travelled the distance from his vehicle to the point at which he pulled the trigger, and all reliable indications are that he did so in order to decrease the distance that Martin had created byhis method of travelling.

And all of that gets erased at the moment one of them grabbed a gun.
 
You are the one who insists on using the word 'pursued'. That semantic quibbling serves no purpose.

No matter what descriptive terms you choose, Zimmerman travelled the distance from his vehicle to the point at which he pulled the trigger, and all reliable indications are that he did so in order to decrease the distance that Martin had created byhis method of travelling.

And all of that gets erased at the moment one of them grabbed a gun.
Did you just make that part up? If not, present your evidence.
 
If you display your ignorance and just assert things to be the way you think should be, and yet manage to provide nothing from any sources, like you know police journal or statutes, then all you have is empty rhetoric.

So where is your research? Where are you substantiating facts to your assertion that things should just be done your way? Or will you admit it is just your personal opinion?

What assertions do you feel I've made that require substantiation? Please provide quotes.

Because the only unsubstantiated assertion I see in this discussion is the one you made regarding the police completing an investigation without forensic evidence:
Would this complete investigation by the Sanford PD include things like "ballistics, powder burns, forensic data analysis and a coroner's investigation"?
No, why would it?

Repeated follow up questions to this assertion were ignored, and now - strangely enough - I find myself being accused of not substantiating my claims.

So let's start again, shall we?

Based on the assertion that you made, please explain how the police are able to complete their investigation without forensic data.
 
Based on the assertion that you made, please explain how the police are able to complete their investigation without forensic data.
Your link said Sanford detectives were close to completing their iinvestigation, not the SPD as a whole, and certainly not the DA.

Detectives don't do the forensic work, state crime labs do that.
 
Based on the assertion that you made, please explain how the police are able to complete their investigation without forensic data.

A police department is going to have an ongoing case load and investigations, at some point they have completed their investigation, they have gathered witness statements, they have gathered physical evidence, such evidence that is not witness statements id turned over to further agencies for analysis. And in this case the case was turned over to the SA's office.

Why would that be a surprise, this is not a cold case with no leads that is going to stay open.

My point about your assertion is that you keep saying that for some reason they needed to do more, they did what they felt they needed to do. they gathered evidence, they did not make an arrest, but they did turn the case over to the SA.

Where are you getting any idea that they should have done more, they did their part.


This is analogous to many other situations, a particular piece of an agency gathers information, at some point the scope of their gathering is finished and they turn it over to others.

Say I was someone who took crisis calls and did intake assessments and crisis screenings. In the case of intake appointments I did two things, I gathered information and made a summary of it, I then (with oversight by others) made recommendations and linkages. the appointment with the psychiatrist was often scheduled in the future at that point. Now I opened the client on my case load for the assessment and then transferred the client to the doctor or therapist. And that was it, my job was done. the client was closed from my case load.

Crisis assessments in the ED were similar, if they were not already an open client, I would meet with them, gather data and the best disposition would be determined. I would carry them on my case load until it was known what had happened to them, if they returned to the community or stayed in the community I had them on my case load for a brief period. But once that linkage was made for after care (or not if they chose that). They were closed off my case load, and often to the agency, the further gathering of information would be done by their doctors, therapists and other social workers.

And so in this analogy we have me as someone gathering information and making recommendations, there were times I would get them a 'crash appointment' with the psychiatrist and they would be transferred immoderately to the doctor's case load. There were other times they would stay on my case load for supportive counseling before transfer to a therapist or case manager. Or they would be transferred off my case load and to another while pending further appointments.

In all these situations the case was either transferred or closed. But either way it was closed from my role, there was often further information gathered by multiple individuals, inside and outside the agency I worked for, but the case was done for me.

Now the analogy here is that the SPD gathers evidence, they then make a multi-layered decision to arrest based upon that evidence. the case is then closed and transferred, while evidence is still being gathered.

In both situations there is a role, evidence is gathered and a disposition is made, further evidence continues to be gathered and analyzed. But not by the originating individual.

So where is your reasoning that the a police department would keep a case open after the evidence has been gathered? And especially since the case has been turned over to the SA?

You keep asserting that they should have kept the case open, where is this SOP and why would they do so?
 
You are the one who insists on using the word 'pursued'. That semantic quibbling serves no purpose.

No matter what descriptive terms you choose, Zimmerman travelled the distance from his vehicle to the point at which he pulled the trigger, and all reliable indications are that he did so in order to decrease the distance that Martin had created byhis method of travelling.

And all of that gets erased at the moment one of them grabbed a gun.

If you were actually keeping up, you would see clearly my post was responding to another member's use of the word "pursued". I don't think it is the correct word to describe the actions of either Z or TM the night of the shooting. However, if one chooses to use it to describe the actions of either Z or TM, it does more closely fit the actions of TM during the time frame immediately before the shooting, as described by Zimmerman.

Here is the number one definition of "pursued" from Dictionary.com:

1. to follow in order to overtake, capture, kill, etc.; chase.

With regard to your suggestion that "semantic quibbling" serves no purpose, did you watch the bond hearing or read the transcripts? O'Mara clearly thinks that "semantic quibbling" is extremely important in the effort to defend his client. That is why he spent considerable time going over the choice of words used in the probable cause affidavit with Galbreath when he was on the stand. In that document, just as we have seen in posts here, inflammatory words were chosen instead of words that more accurately described the events at hand.
 
In that document, just as we have seen in posts here, inflammatory words were chosen instead of words that more accurately described the events at hand.

I think this is exactly right. Certain words are loaded, and "pursue" is one. To pursue is not to just follow, the two words are not interchangable synonyms, because to pursue is to follow with an aim of getting the person being followed. This is why there there can be an issue with the semantics and it's not just quibbling. When you use a word that is loaded with a specific meaning, then you deserve to get called on it especially when it is used repeatedly.

We know that GZ did follow TM that night, we can even say that he ran after TM, but to use words such as "Pursued" or "Chased" idicates more, that GZ was in fact trying to catch up with TM to get him, and of that there is no evidence, in fact the evidence we have says that it wasn't the case, as he lost track of him.

It's similar to using words like "assaulted" and "shoved" when describing a push. Consider the following and think of what occured as you read it...

  • John battered the police officer who stood in his way.
  • John assualted the police officer who stood in his way.
  • John shoved the police officer who stood in his way.
  • John pushed the police officer who stood in his way.
  • John jostled the police officer who stood in his way.
  • John bumped the police officer who stood in his way.

As you read each of these, do you perceive what happened the same way?
 
Last edited:
Your link said Sanford detectives were close to completing their iinvestigation, not the SPD as a whole, and certainly not the DA.

I'm not sure what type of semantic argument is being attempted here, but it failed before it could even begin:
That is why I directed the expeditious review of the investigation which was delivered by the Sanford Police Department one week ago today...

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/state-attorney-case-will-be-given-grand-jury-shoot/nLX9c/

This exact quote has already appeared at least once during the course of this particular discussion. Or do you allege that there is some secret department of the Sanford PD that was carrying on the investigation despite this proclamation?

Detectives don't do the forensic work, state crime labs do that.

Also previously established, and not ever even an issue. No one is claiming police detectives do their own lab work.

What is being questioned is why police detectives don't seem to need this lab work in order to complete their investigation.
 
I think this is exactly right. Certain words are loaded, and "pursue" is one. To pursue is not to just follow, the two words are not interchangable synonyms, because to pursue is to follow with an aim of getting the person being followed.

I'm not quite sure I agree completely.

According to my Webster's, the 1st definition for pursue has an "overtake" requirement.

The 2nd definition, on the other hand, is just regular "follow" and can be used as a synonym with follow.

1: to follow in order to overtake, capture, or kill; chase

2: to proceed along, follow, or continue with (a specified course, action, plan, etc.)

I would agree that, normally, people associate "pursue" with an intent to overtake.

Also, I don't believe it is all black and white. There are varying levels; anywhere from just follow, to keep an eye on, keep up with, meet, confront, capture, overtake (pass), etc.

We know at certain times Z was doing the first 2. Follow and keep an eye on.
 
A police department is going to have an ongoing case load and investigations, at some point they have completed their investigation, they have gathered witness statements, they have gathered physical evidence, such evidence that is not witness statements id turned over to further agencies for analysis. And in this case the case was turned over to the SA's office.

Why would that be a surprise, this is not a cold case with no leads that is going to stay open.

My point about your assertion is that you keep saying that for some reason they needed to do more, they did what they felt they needed to do. they gathered evidence, they did not make an arrest, but they did turn the case over to the SA.

Where are you getting any idea that they should have done more, they did their part.

From Florida State Attorney Norm Wolfinger:
... I directed the expeditious review of the investigation which was delivered by the Sanford Police Department one week ago today; areas for further investigation have been identified...
I'm not sure why an "adequate" and "thorough" investigation would require further investigation. Perhaps you could offer some insight, and maybe even offer another example of something that could be described as "adequate" and "thorough", and also requiring more work.

This is analogous to many other situations, a particular piece of an agency gathers information, at some point the scope of their gathering is finished and they turn it over to others.

Say I was someone who took crisis calls and did intake assessments and crisis screenings. In the case of intake appointments I did two things, I gathered information and made a summary of it, I then (with oversight by others) made recommendations and linkages. the appointment with the psychiatrist was often scheduled in the future at that point. Now I opened the client on my case load for the assessment and then transferred the client to the doctor or therapist. And that was it, my job was done. the client was closed from my case load.

Crisis assessments in the ED were similar, if they were not already an open client, I would meet with them, gather data and the best disposition would be determined. I would carry them on my case load until it was known what had happened to them, if they returned to the community or stayed in the community I had them on my case load for a brief period. But once that linkage was made for after care (or not if they chose that). They were closed off my case load, and often to the agency, the further gathering of information would be done by their doctors, therapists and other social workers.

And so in this analogy we have me as someone gathering information and making recommendations, there were times I would get them a 'crash appointment' with the psychiatrist and they would be transferred immoderately to the doctor's case load. There were other times they would stay on my case load for supportive counseling before transfer to a therapist or case manager. Or they would be transferred off my case load and to another while pending further appointments.

In all these situations the case was either transferred or closed. But either way it was closed from my role, there was often further information gathered by multiple individuals, inside and outside the agency I worked for, but the case was done for me.
I'm not sure why we would need to go so far afield for a workable analogy.

How about if you provide another example of a police department investigating a crime in which forensic evidence is a factor, but completes the investigation without that evidence?

Now the analogy here is that the SPD gathers evidence, they then make a multi-layered decision to arrest based upon that evidence. the case is then closed and transferred, while evidence is still being gathered.

In both situations there is a role, evidence is gathered and a disposition is made, further evidence continues to be gathered and analyzed. But not by the originating individual.
At the point in time that Wolfinger made the statement above, the investigation was deemed complete and was awaiting review by the state's attorney.

Who was it that was still gathering evidence at this point?

So where is your reasoning that the a police department would keep a case open after the evidence has been gathered? And especially since the case has been turned over to the SA?

You keep asserting that they should have kept the case open, where is this SOP and why would they do so?
I'm not the one asserting things. You are:
Would this complete investigation by the Sanford PD include things like "ballistics, powder burns, forensic data analysis and a coroner's investigation"?
No, why would it?

It seems only fair for you to offer cites to support your arguments, instead of demanding I offer cites to counter them.
 
I'm not quite sure I agree completely.

According to my Webster's, the 1st definition for pursue has an "overtake" requirement.

The 2nd definition, on the other hand, is just regular "follow" and can be used as a synonym with follow.

1: to follow in order to overtake, capture, or kill; chase

2: to proceed along, follow, or continue with (a specified course, action, plan, etc.)

The second usage there is more in line of "he persued his goal even though told it was fruitless" rather than the following of a person (hence the part in the brackets.)

I would agree that, normally, people associate "pursue" with an intent to overtake.

Which is why it's a loaded word.

Also, I don't believe it is all black and white. There are varying levels; anywhere from just follow, to keep an eye on, keep up with, meet, confront, capture, overtake (pass), etc.

We know at certain times Z was doing the first 2. Follow and keep an eye on.

I'd say that very little is black and white, however in this case it's clear that certain posters use loaded words deliberately to apply a negative reflection. If they were to say that "GZ followed TM" it doesn't sound as bad as saying that "GZ persued TM" or "GZ chased TM", just like they state that GZ "assualted a Police officer" rather than that "GZ pushed a plain clothes DEA agent."

Personally I think that the use of such loaded words is poor critical thinking and a sign of emotional thinking. It's also a form of poisoning the well.
 
Last edited:
If you were actually keeping up, you would see clearly my post was responding to another member's use of the word "pursued". I don't think it is the correct word to describe the actions of either Z or TM the night of the shooting. However, if one chooses to use it to describe the actions of either Z or TM, it does more closely fit the actions of TM during the time frame immediately before the shooting, as described by Zimmerman.

Here is the number one definition of "pursued" from Dictionary.com:

1. to follow in order to overtake, capture, kill, etc.; chase.

With regard to your suggestion that "semantic quibbling" serves no purpose, did you watch the bond hearing or read the transcripts? O'Mara clearly thinks that "semantic quibbling" is extremely important in the effort to defend his client. That is why he spent considerable time going over the choice of words used in the probable cause affidavit with Galbreath when he was on the stand. In that document, just as we have seen in posts here, inflammatory words were chosen instead of words that more accurately described the events at hand.
As already pointed out, complete with Supreme Court references, the bond hearing theatrics don't mean squat.
The posturing that lawyers do for the media should never be mistaken for the reality.
If O'mara tries those childish word games in a real trial, any judge with a spine will slap him down.

You feel free to channel Nancy Grace all you want, I'll stick to reality.
 
While the nation's focus on racial profiling is seemingly centered on George Zimmerman's encounter with Trayvon Martin, in 2011 New York Police did more "stop and frisks" on young black males than the total number of young black males in New York City.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47401622/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/#.T687NVKiYqw

ETA - I should have mentioned that in the first three months of this year, there have been over 200,000 stop and frisks, up 10% over 2011.

Yes, and that's a long-standing issue that civil rights groups have also been involved in. However, NYC mayor Bloomberg continues to defend it as lowering crime, despite a n investigation finding that at least one police precinct (the 81st in Bed-Stuy) deliberately frisked innocent people and underreported crime rates in order to give the higher-ups the numbers they wanted.

But this isn't very on topic, is it?
 
From Florida State Attorney Norm Wolfinger:
I'm not sure why an "adequate" and "thorough" investigation would require further investigation. Perhaps you could offer some insight, and maybe even offer another example of something that could be described as "adequate" and "thorough", and also requiring more work.
I know you like to argue semantics and seems to be unable to explain your self.

But as i stated before and will continue to do so.

The SPD gathers the witness statements and the physical evidence available at the crime scene.

Why would the further analysis of that be the responsibility of the SPD?

I know, asking you a direct question is unlikely to produce results, but I know you can answer.
I'm not sure why we would need to go so far afield for a workable analogy.

How about if you provide another example of a police department investigating a crime in which forensic evidence is a factor, but completes the investigation without that evidence?
Analysis of the evidence gathered is different than the gathering of evidence. Is forensic analysis of the physical evidence in a laboratory the same as the original police investigation?


The SPD gathers the witness statements and the physical evidence available at the crime scene.

Why would the further analysis of that be the responsibility of the SPD?
At the point in time that Wolfinger made the statement above, the investigation was deemed complete and was awaiting review by the state's attorney.

Who was it that was still gathering evidence at this point?
I know you like to pretend that you are trolling but you could at least try to be have in your more rational mode.

I never stated that there was further evidence being gathered, I have meant to state, and may not have done so directly that there is the further analysis of the evidence gathered. Such as the powder burns and ballistic data.
I'm not the one asserting things. You are:



It seems only fair for you to offer cites to support your arguments, instead of demanding I offer cites to counter them.

It only seems fair that you actually explain what exactly you feel was left out of the investigation by the SPD and how this is part of SOP for police departments.

So what evidence was the SPD to gather that you feel was lacking in their investigation?

Then perhaps you can explain your reasoning in why analysis of the evidence in a lab someplace else is part of the SPD's investigation?
 
Last edited:
From Florida State Attorney Norm Wolfinger:
I'm not sure why an "adequate" and "thorough" investigation would require further investigation. Perhaps you could offer some insight, and maybe even offer another example of something that could be described as "adequate" and "thorough", and also requiring more work.
.

Have you completely dismissed the idea that it's simply political pandering and an effort to pacify the public ? That, at the time, Wolfinger thought the SPD did an "adequate" and "thorough" investigation, but because there was such an outcry, he "identified" areas to be further investigated. Or perhaps he actually identified an area where the SPD didn't do a stellar investigation, and instead of publicly calling them out for it, made them aware of it in a less obvious and direct way. I think that's less likely than the former, but possible.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom