Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[LTC8K6]

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/0...ot-trayvon-martin-in-self-defense--75855.html

Frank Taaffe, a friend of George Zimmerman, shows ABC7's Scott Thuman where the shooting of Trayvon Martin happened.

 

[johnny karate]

I'm not sure why GZ would make any claims about the severity of the wounds.

Did GZ make any such claims? He certainly wouldn't need to.

The details of Zimmerman's account have come from secondary sources such as his (first) lawyers and his father. Obviously, we have no firsthand accounts from Zimmerman himself. This point I will certainly concede.

no, because if you go further back the whole "his injuries were inconsistant" came from a discussion about whether his head was being hit on the concrete. No-where was there a discussion about how servere GZ or others claimed his injuries were unless you are planning to go near a hundred pages back.

You asked me how his injuries were inconsistent. I provided an answer. You can't add qualifiers after the fact because you don't like that answer.

On top of that, I don't recall anyone claiming that he had gapping open laceration streaming blood either, the most I have heard is that he was bleeding, which he was. Do you have any statments that show anyone was claiming more than he was bleeding?

Specifically, his first lawyers claimed his scalp lacerations were serious enough to probably require stitches. Zimmerman's father described a particularly nasty assault that involved Martin beating Zimmerman's face and repeatedly hitting his head on the concrete for more than a minute.

I didn't change the argument at all, I pointed out that the quote you mined was from a different argument. On that basis, if anyone was trying to change the argument it was you by introducing the answer to one question into the discussion on a second question and trying to pretend it was relevent.

I'm sorry... quote mined?

What I quoted from triforcharity was him specifically saying he didn't think Zimmerman's injuries were as severe as what was being claimed. In other words, the injuries were inconsistent with what was being claimed:

I don't see his wounds as being all that severe as Zimmerman et al. have claimed.

 

[PhantomWolf]

You asked me how his injuries were inconsistent. I provided an answer. You can't add qualifiers after the fact because you don't like that answer.

Yes because when discussing heads being hit on the ground and the inconsistancy of the wounds to this, one makes the insane assumption that this is what will be answered, not something totally different.

Specifically, his first lawyers claimed his scalp lacerations were serious enough to probably require stitches.

And triforcharity states:

However, the one on the right, does show some separation and some swelling. How deep it was is unknown.

He also suggests that they might have used healing glue on it, something that tends to replace stitches these days because it heals cleaner. It seems that triforcharity doesn't rule out that this wound was bad enough to require stitches, and GZ's lawyer never stated it was bad enough, just that it probably could require them. Seems that there is no conflict here. One says it might need stitches, the other says it is separating, could have healthing glue used, and I can't tell how deep it is from the image. Where's the conflict?

Zimmerman's father described a particularly nasty assault that involved Martin beating Zimmerman's face and repeatedly hitting his head on the concrete for more than a minute.

And? Where does he state the seriousness of the injuries received? Oh, he doesn't does he....

I'm sorry... quote mined?

You have another term for taking a quote from one context and applying it to another as if it answers the question asked?

What I quoted from triforcharity was him specifically saying he didn't think Zimmerman's injuries were as severe as what was being claimed. In other words, the injuries were inconsistent with what was being claimed:

And what you were asked is for evidence that GZ's injuries were not consistant with his claims of what occured during the fight. Get the difference?

 

[johnny karate]

Yes because when discussing heads being hit on the ground and the inconsistancy of the wounds to this, one makes the insane assumption that this is what will be answered, not something totally different.

When we were discussing it in those specific terms? Please provide quotes.

He also suggests that they might have used healing glue on it, something that tends to replace stitches these days because it heals cleaner. It seems that triforcharity doesn't rule out that this wound was bad enough to require stitches, and GZ's lawyer never stated it was bad enough, just that it probably could require them. Seems that there is no conflict here. One says it might need stitches, the other says it is separating, could have healthing glue used, and I can't tell how deep it is from the image. Where's the conflict?

Yes, triforcharity doesn't rule anything out, which is what I think makes his assessment evenhanded. But in the final analysis he said this:

I don't see his wounds as being all that severe as Zimmerman et al. have claimed.

If you have an issue with that, you'll have to take it up with him.

And? Where does he state the seriousness of the injuries received? Oh, he doesn't does he....

He describes a very serious assault. That would imply very serious injuries.

You have another term for taking a quote from one context and applying it to another as if it answers the question asked?

You asked me what evidence I had that Zimmerman's wounds were inconsistent with the claims being made about them. I provided a quote from a medical professional opining just that. I'm not sure why you keep pretending there's some different context.

And what you were asked is for evidence that GZ's injuries were not consistant with his claims of what occured during the fight.

I was? Please quote where you asked me that specific question.

 

[Rare Truth]

...
He also suggests that they might have used healing glue on it, something that tends to replace stitches these days because it heals cleaner. ...

I believe what triforcharity stated was it was highly unlikely the SPD would use that.

Ah yes, "highly unlikely" was the exact phrase.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8218436&postcount=7112

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Remind me again why anyone with half a brain gives a flying **** whether GZ's dad accurately described the incident or the injuries? By God let's get to the bottom of this, what about the neighbor who wasn't there, or his brothers wife's stepsisters kids who wasn't there, what do they have to say about how this came down?!

 

[johnny karate]

Remind me again why anyone with half a brain gives a flying **** whether GZ's dad accurately described the incident or the injuries? By God let's get to the bottom of this, what about the neighbor who wasn't there, or his brothers wife's stepsisters kids who wasn't there, what do they have to say about how this came down?!

If we're ruling out the relevance of second party statements, then maybe you can explain why anyone should care about the accuracy of what Benjamin Crump has to say.

Because along with some others in this thread, you seem quite put out by him:

So after spoon feeding the media for weeks, for the first time GZ has someone competent enough to provide an alternative view in the MOST professional way, and NOW the prosecution wants to stop everyone from talking to the media. All the while of course Crump and company will b able to lobby the media 24/7, since I assume a gag order won't apply to them. Sickening beyond words.

No idea, way too much speculation involved there for me. It could have been purposeful or innocent. If it was chosen by Crump I'd rate the likelihood of it being purposely manipulation 10x higher.

 

[KatieG]

Remind me again why anyone with half a brain gives a flying **** whether GZ's dad accurately described the incident or the injuries? By God let's get to the bottom of this, what about the neighbor who wasn't there, or his brothers wife's stepsisters kids who wasn't there, what do they have to say about how this came down?!

Wee hours of the morning, this struck me as hilarious! The lack of any actual evidence or forensics is crazy making. Nothing new to discuss and the media keeps trying to fan the flames. MO'M makes money every day this drags out. We the people must sit here and continue to flog the dust of the long dead horse.

I have no idea what happened that night. I just think that any time someone shoots another person, there should be an investigation. Not necessarily an arrest at that time but certainly more investigation than the SPD did. I hope Florida does a little fine tuning on the SYG or self defense laws.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

Andrew, I'm just curious. Given your rough neighborhood, would you say you've developed a sense about people who seem suspicious?

Not especially. The past decade's calls have included siphoning gas, jimmying open the door of my truck and trying to hotwire it, kicking in my garage door, vandalism, drunken man with off-leash pit bull telling dog to chase people (including my then girlfriend), man in trenchcoat with samurai sword accosting pedestrians after dark, obvious stuff like that. Trying to develop a 'sense' for suspicious people would in my opinion result in over reacting to the mere presence of people and stereotyped profiling triggers. I live in a neighborhood similar in layout to the generic-suburb sort that the GZ/TM incident happened in, and people merely cutting through the yard or walking around regardless of race, attire, weather, or time of day, is not automatically cause for suspicion.

 

[Dancing David]

I'm not sure why GZ would make any claims about the severity of the wounds.

Did GZ make any such claims? He certainly wouldn't need to.

Nope, and I don't get that line of reasoning either. All that there needs to be is a reasonable fear of great bodily harm.

 

[Cylinder]

Not necessarily an arrest at that time but certainly more investigation than the SPD did.

I think you're going to end up more offended by the media lying to you by allowing the race hustlers to spoon feed us through them. Don't feel bad, I was taken in for a minute as well.

I don't know what defeciency you found in the investigation - and feel free to point it out - but I can almost gaurantee that it was not true.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Wee hours of the morning, this struck me as hilarious! The lack of any actual evidence or forensics is crazy making. Nothing new to discuss and the media keeps trying to fan the flames. MO'M makes money every day this drags out. We the people must sit here and continue to flog the dust of the long dead horse.

To be fair, Ben Crump, Natalie Jackson, Ryan Julison are all making money every day this drags out.
https://www.wepay.com/stores/we-are-trayvon-martin
This is the OFFICIAL memorabilia store for TRAYVON MARTIN's FAMILY!
And I'm not even sure why the Martins need attorneys and publicists, but I guess they do.

I have no idea what happened that night. I just think that any time someone shoots another person, there should be an investigation. Not necessarily an arrest at that time but certainly more investigation than the SPD did. I hope Florida does a little fine tuning on the SYG or self defense laws.

There was an investigation. I am unsure how you determined how thorough an investigation the SPD. Could you please elaborate on what you believe their shortcomings were ? Is is something like the Martin Family version below ? I'm not picking on you, but your argument seems to be an appeal to emotion - you don't want to make any judgments, you just want a 'fair' investigation. It seems reasonable until you start questioning the facts of it...

http://www.wearetrayvonmartin.com/
The police chief Bill Lee and Sgt. Dave Morgenstern conducted a biased investigation that was geared towards supporting a “self defense” theory on behalf of the killer, George Zimmerman whom they were personal friends with. George Zimmerman told blatant lies about being the victim because he knew the real victim was dead.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/0...ot-trayvon-martin-in-self-defense--75855.html

That's the local Washington DC ABC station. Why in the world are they sticking their fingers in and stirring the pot.

 

[Cylinder]

The idea that Zimmerman was somehow had access to special judicial priviledge within the area is laughable.

He gave not one but three voluntary interviews to the police. He did an onscene re-enactment. He stews until this thing gets out-of-hand in the media and hires two of the biggest clowns he could find as attorneys. Whn he realizes this, he uses his super seekret acccess to decide to call the special prosecutor's office and Shaun Freaking Hannity before calling - wait for it... - the law partner of the judge who's scheduled to hear the case and who is a CNN analyst on the case. You know, CNN - the pro-Zimmerman cable news network. Meanwhile, the clown brothers are so scared of crossing the Zimmerman clan cabal that they find the nearest teevee camera and start making extrajudicial comments and relaying priviledged information - which will probably be the subject of sanction. Zimmerman's clout is not quite spent, though. He is given two names by Recksiedler's law partner. O'Mara and an unamed attorney. Zimmerman, relying on his vast network of insiders within the system calls the other guy, who reportedly declined due to case load before he finally gets to O'Mara.

Yup. Gearge Zimmerman is clearly the William Kennedy Smith of Central Florida.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

The idea that Zimmerman was somehow had access to special judicial priviledge within the area is laughable.

He gave not one but three voluntary interviews to the police. He did an onscene re-enactment. He stews until this thing gets out-of-hand in the media and hires two of the biggest clowns he could find as attorneys. Whn he realizes this, he uses his super seekret acccess to decide to call the special prosecutor's office and Shaun Freaking Hannity before calling - wait for it... - the law partner of the judge who's scheduled to hear the case and who is a CNN analyst on the case. You know, CNN - the pro-Zimmerman cable news network. Meanwhile, the clown brothers are so scared of crossing the Zimmerman clan cabal that they find the nearest teevee camera and start making extrajudicial comments and relaying priviledged information - which will probably be the subject of sanction. Zimmerman's clout is not quite spent, though. He is given two names by Recksiedler's law partner. O'Mara and an unamed attorney. Zimmerman, relying on his vast network of insiders within the system calls the other guy, who reportedly declined due to case load before he finally gets to O'Mara.

Yup. Gearge Zimmerman is clearly the William Kennedy Smith of Central Florida.

Priceless! Indeed, the idea that GZ got off because his father is a "judge" or alternatively "going to be a police officer" is just another outrageous lie that was sold to the media and repeated by the media. If anything, I suspect the police looked upon him as a bit of a ninny and a nuisance with his many 911 calls.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I have no idea what happened that night. I just think that any time someone shoots another person, there should be an investigation. Not necessarily an arrest at that time but certainly more investigation than the SPD did.

Like others here Katie, I just have to wonder how you came to that determination and how you quantify that? There was an investigation. How have you determined that there "should have been more investigation"? In fact, from the lead investigators testimony on the stand, it doesn't sound like after several weeks they have any more evidence than they did the first time around when they decided not to prosecute. Can't say that with certainty, but that's what it sounded like.

BTW, just to give an example, we know they did ~4 hours of questioning. We know they had him reenact the scene. 4 hours of questioning seems like a lot of questioning to me. Do you think that was not enough? If that was enough, why would we assume that other areas of their investigation were not enough? Do you have any metric to base that judgment on other than the fact that he wasn't arrested?

 

[LTC8K6]

I am baffled about the claims that SPD did not do an investigation, or did an inadequate investigation.

As far as I can tell, they did a normal thorough investigation of a shooting, even with GZ's self defense claim.

They certainly did not go lightly on GZ.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I am baffled about the claims that SPD did not do an investigation, or did an inadequate investigation.

As far as I can tell, they did a normal thorough investigation of a shooting, even with GZ's self defense claim.

They certainly did not go lightly on GZ.

A huge percentage of the media does not report news, they create it. The canard that the police did a poor investigation was started by an ABC "investigative report" that told how a policeman corrected a witness the night of the crime scene who evidently said something like "TM was on the ground" and the policeman said "you mean GZ was on the ground". I am paraphrasing of course. But what it sounded like was that the witness gave a statement where at some point they do what people often do, and accidentally said something that obviously contradicted the story they were telling, and the policeman "corrected" them to clarify that they had meant to say the other person.

Hard to say exactly what happened without the full context, and probably the policeman should have been more careful and clarified what they meant in a better way, but it sounded like some small error ABC discovered that gave them an opportunity to suggest the entire investigation was deeply flawed.

 

[Dan O.]

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/0...ot-trayvon-martin-in-self-defense--75855.html

Frank Taaffe, a friend of George Zimmerman, shows ABC7's Scott Thuman where the shooting of Trayvon Martin happened.

According to Frank's story, George was parked on the north side of Twin Tree Lane facing west and not far from the cut-through. This position is about half way between the mailboxes and the tee and there is a clear line of sight to both. I suspect this is correct because it is consistent with George watching Trayvon passing the mailboxes While on the phone with the dispatch operator without having to turn around in his seat. It should be possible to confirm this by finding a photo from that night that includes the truck.

Frank then talks about Trayvon circling George's truck and makes a jesture indicating a full circle. I strongly doubt this because we have a first hand contemporaneous record from George that makes no indication that such an event occured.


But how does George come to be in that position

 

[Dan O.]

Hard to say exactly what happened without the full context, and probably the policeman should have been more careful and clarified what they meant in a better way, but it sounded like some small error ABC discovered that gave them an opportunity to suggest the entire investigation was deeply flawed.

You call that a small error?! The policeman was totally wrong to inject his view of events into the witness statement. The witnesses are the primary record of what happened. It is difficult enough to question a witness without interfering with that witnesses memory. To deliberately contradict what a witness says because it doesn't match the current beliefs is 100% fail for finding the facts.