Does Islam belong in Germany?

[A'isha]

Sharia is derived from hadith which are effectively sayings of Muhammad, transcribed from Gabriel who was acting as God's secretary.

Actually, Sharia derives from two sources: the Qur'an, and the sunnah. Only the Qur'an is the word of Allah as transmitted to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel (supposedly, anyway).

The sunnah, on the other hand, is the words, actions, and practices of Muhammad and his Companions in their daily lives, which are recorded in orally-transmitted accounts called the hadith. These are not things directly spoken by Allah via Gabriel, but are the memories, recollections, and descriptions of what Muhammad and his Companions did and said as passed on by their contemporaries (again, supposedly).

Taking Christianity, another aspect is how the ideology evolves. Christianity has been allowed to move from the turgid goings on of the OT to lovely stuff like the Golden Rule through the coming of Jesus, but more importantly as a text the Bible is acknowledged to be the work of man and therefore fallible and open to interpretation.

This is not exactly true. See the concept of Biblical Inerrancy (and the related concept of Biblical Infallibility).

In contrast, the Koran is alleged to be the letter-perfect word of Allah and cannot be changed in any way. This makes a comprehensive theory of cherry-picking and mitigation very difficult, made more so by the agenda-heavy instructions of the Islamic scholars. Of course many Muslims do obey only selective parts of the Koran, and don't want to live under sharia, but in terms of academic Islam there is no justification for their stance.

This is also untrue. The text itself of the Qur'an (well, the consonantal skeleton known as the rasm, at least) is considered to be the letter-perfect word of Allah, but figuring out just what that rasm says and means has long been a topic of intense scholarly debate within Islam itself.

 

[Toontown]

For your sake I hope it doesn't matter. He lived most of his life, and all his preaching life, in the 7th century, not the 5th. I think the "shut up about things you know nothing about" was good advice.

Don't you worry your pretty little head about my sake. Worry about your sake. And it doesn't matter.

I don't commit a lot of trivia to memory. I had to look it up. From Wikipedia:

Muhammad (c. 26 April 570 – 8 June 632;[2] also transliterated as Mohammad, Mohammed, or Muhammed; Arabic: مُحَمَّد‎), full name: Muhammad Ibn `Abd Allāh Ibn `Abd al-Muttalib (Arabic: مُحَمَّد بِن عَبْدَالله بِن عَبْد اَلْمُطَّلِب‎) was the founder of the religion of Islam.[3][n 1] Born in 570 CE in the Arabian city of Mecca


CE means "Calendar Era".

So there you are. Jacked up again.

 

[baron]

Actually, Sharia derives from two sources: the Qur'an, and the sunnah. Only the Qur'an is the word of Allah as transmitted to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel (supposedly, anyway).

The sunnah, on the other hand, is the words, actions, and practices of Muhammad and his Companions in their daily lives, which are recorded in orally-transmitted accounts called the hadith. These are not things directly spoken by Allah via Gabriel, but are the memories, recollections, and descriptions of what Muhammad and his Companions did and said as passed on by their contemporaries (again, supposedly).

Absolutely, I wasn't saying that sharia was dictated by an angel or anything like that (assuming that such thing were possible). I was talking about hadith as a source for sharia as relates to the 'authenticated' aspects of Muhammad's proclamations. Then again Muhammad did keep getting second-guessed by God, especially where women were concerned, so maybe there was an aspect of divine intervention in his sayings and actions too.

EDIT: I've just read my original sentence and it's very badly phrased. My fault, but I didn't mean Gabriel dictated any aspect of hadith.

This is not exactly true. See the concept of Biblical Inerrancy (and the related concept of Biblical Infallibility).

That's true to a limited extent, and indeed some Christians actually believe every word of the Bible to be effectively that of God, albeit written by man, but by far the majority opinion is that the Bible is not immutable. Of course, having leaders such as the Pope (disagreeable though he is) does help in guiding the masses.

This is also untrue. The text itself of the Qur'an (well, the consonantal skeleton known as the rasm, at least) is considered to be the letter-perfect word of Allah, but figuring out just what that rasm says and means has long been a topic of intense scholarly debate within Islam itself.

Again, I haven't said otherwise, that was my reference to the scholars. A great many Muslims believe it's not their position to interpret the Koran and that it can only be done by Islamic scholars. It's here that much of the more objectionable aspects of Islamic teachings are injected relating to instruction that the individual Muslim might well choose to ignore if given the leeway to freely practice Islam as a personal religion.

 

[Craig B]

Don't you worry your pretty little head about my sake. Worry about your sake. And it doesn't matter.

I don't commit a lot of trivia to memory. I had to look it up. From Wikipedia:

Muhammad (c. 26 April 570 – 8 June 632;[2] also transliterated as Mohammad, Mohammed, or Muhammed; Arabic: مُحَمَّد‎), full name: Muhammad Ibn `Abd Allāh Ibn `Abd al-Muttalib (Arabic: مُحَمَّد بِن عَبْدَالله بِن عَبْد اَلْمُطَّلِب‎) was the founder of the religion of Islam.[3][n 1] Born in 570 CE in the Arabian city of Mecca


CE means "Calendar Era".

So there you are. Jacked up again.

So he was. And his preaching career spanned the period 610 to 622. Islam therefore arose in the seventh century. Here is the fifth:

5th century. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era.

What do you call the period 1 to 100 AD/CE?

 

[Toontown]

You really have got to be kidding. If I were to say: "I am not saying Catholics don't belong in Scotland; I'm saying the opposite. Catholicism does not fit the Scottish identity and culture, and so does not belong" I would be taken for a lunatic, and rightly so.

Opposite?? I don't believe I have ever read anything as nonsensical as that.

No, I don't have to be kidding. It really isn't necessary to herd people into extermination camps simply because you reject their religion.

And it seems fairly obvious that the vast majority of Germans do not find Islam to be particularly compelling. They are not exactly flocking to the Mosques to be converted.

But who knows. Perhaps many of them would like to convert, but are afraid of what might happen if they were to convert and then decide Islam is not for them. Then there would be the whole 'apostasy' thing, and you know how tense that can get.

Lots of downside to it. Not much upside. Not sure exactly what the upside would be. Maybe that's what Kauder meant. But maybe you should give it a try.

 

[Craig B]

Toontown

Sorry, I'm confused. I wrote

You really have got to be kidding. If I were to say: "I am not saying Catholics don't belong in Scotland; I'm saying the opposite. Catholicism does not fit the Scottish identity and culture, and so does not belong" I would be taken for a lunatic, and rightly so.

Opposite?? I don't believe I have ever read anything as nonsensical as that.

But the reply you sent must be in error, and intended as a response to a completely different post.

No, I don't have to be kidding. It really isn't necessary to herd people into extermination camps simply because you reject their religion.

And it seems fairly obvious that the vast majority of Germans do not find Islam to be particularly compelling. They are not exactly flocking to the Mosques to be converted.

Please redirect that to whoever it was who raised the issues of extermination camps and conversions. As you may see, I was discussing the ludicrous idea proposed by you that saying a religion doesn't belong is the opposite of saying its adherents don't belong. When you find the reply you have made to that point, please pass it on.

Added on edit. Since you look things up on wiki, rather than entrust them to the care of your memory - probably wisely - you may consult that source to discover that CE does not mean "calendar era":

Common Era (also Current Era[1] or Christian Era[2]), abbreviated as CE, is an alternative designation for the calendar era originally introduced by 6th-century Christian monk Dionysius Exiguus, traditionally identified with Anno Domini (abbreviated AD).[3][4] Dates before the year 1 CE are indicated by the use of BCE, short for Before the Common Era (likewise with CE, also Before the Current Era or Before the Christian Era)

So it stands for Common Era, which is a particular calendar era. Muslims often express dates in AH, which is a different calendar era from CE. Jews use a calendar era starting with the date of the mythical creation, and so on. That's not CE either.

 

[Toontown]

Toontown

...

As you may see, I was discussing the ludicrous idea proposed by you that saying a religion doesn't belong is the opposite of saying its adherents don't belong. When you find the reply you have made to that point, please pass it on.

I had thought about suggesting that you actually read what Kauder actually said, but then I thought surely you have read it. But I guess not. Who knows. Increasingly, who cares. Jeezus freaking christ.

Here it is, from the OP article:

"Islam is not part of our tradition and identity in Germany and so does not belong in Germany," Volker Kauder, head of Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives in parliament, told the Passauer Neue Presse.

"But Muslims do belong in Germany. As state citizens, of course, they enjoy their full rights," he added.

The point I've tried repeatedly to make is, it is entirely possible for an individual or a country to reject a dubious belief system without rejecting the people who adhere to it. Not only possible, but there really is no sensible alternative. What are the alternatives, exactly?

1. Reject the benighted belief system and the people who hold it

2. Reject the benighted belief system, but not the people who hold it

3. Assimilate the benighted belief system, just because a small minority of people hold it

4. Ignore the benighted belief system, but don't say you're ignoring it, so that you don't offend the believers

Go ahead. Pick one.

 

[Craig B]

Toontown. "Opposite"? Response? And I think Kauder is ludicrous too.

"Assimilate the benighted belief system, just because small minority of people hold it." As I have noted, fewer than 1% of Germans in 1933 were Jews and they had assimilated very well.

Here's another alternative for you. Establish a separation of religion and the state, and pay not the least attention to the religious affiliation of citizens, as long as they obey the law.

 

[angrysoba]

Wow! Somebody on this thread started badly and it has been downhill ever since.

5th Century Calendar Era is just the latest amusing pratfall.

 

[A'isha]

Muhammad (c. 26 April 570 – 8 June 632;[2] also transliterated as Mohammad, Mohammed, or Muhammed; Arabic: مُحَمَّد‎), full name: Muhammad Ibn `Abd Allāh Ibn `Abd al-Muttalib (Arabic: مُحَمَّد بِن عَبْدَالله بِن عَبْد اَلْمُطَّلِب‎) was the founder of the religion of Islam.[3][n 1] Born in 570 CE in the Arabian city of Mecca

570 CE was in the Sixth Century, not the Fifth.

CE means "Calendar Era".

CE means Common Era.

Do you want to know why I keep telling you to learn about something before you start talking about it, so you don't end up looking like a fool because you have no idea what you're talking about?

This is why.

 

[Toontown]

"Assimilate the benighted belief system, just because small minority of people hold it." As I have noted, fewer than 1% of Germans in 1933 were Jews and they had assimilated very well.

By "assimilate" I mean make it your own. Germany did not make the Jews' religion it's own. Germany did not become Jewish. The Jews "assimilated", as you put it, meaning they adapted to Germany.

Here's another alternative for you. Establish a separation of religion and the state, and pay not the least attention to the religious affiliation of citizens, as long as they obey the law.

Ignoring a belief system is not assimilating it. Ignoring a belief system is ignoring it.

If a country ignores a belief system, then the belief system does not become part of the country's identity and culture. The country simply ignores it. IOW, tolerates it.

The German Muslims are assimilated, except for the ones who never learn the language. That does not mean Germany has assimilated their religion. Countries are under no obligation to assimilate anyone's religion.

But if you want to assimilate Islam, go ahead. Knock yourself out. Practice what you don't know you're preaching.

 

[Toontown]

Wow! Somebody on this thread started badly and it has been downhill ever since.

5th Century Calendar Era is just the latest amusing pratfall.

Damn. You people must be desperate. You'll jump on anything like a pack of half starved hound dogs on a ham bone. Three of you.

But I'm sure it's desperately important that I say 6th instead of 5th. So desperately important.

Just don't let me catch any of you being an integer off.

 

[A'isha]

Damn. You people must be desperate. You'll jump on anything like a pack of half starved hound dogs on a ham bone. Three of you.

But I'm sure it's desperately important that I say 6th instead of 5th. So desperately important.

Yes.

It shows how little you care for things like "knowledge" and "facts".

 

[Childlike Empress]

CE means "Calendar Era".

CE means Common Era.

 

[Toontown]

Do you want to know why I keep telling you to learn about something before you start talking about it, so you don't end up looking like a fool because you have no idea what you're talking about?

This is why.

Hint: I wasn't talking about Muhammad's birthday. That was just a very unimportant detail, which has quite irrationally taken on massive importance to the three of you.

 

[A'isha]

Hint: I wasn't talking about Muhammad's birthday. That was just a very unimportant detail, which has quite irrationally taken on massive importance to the three of you.

Then why did you post (and highlight) the year of Muhammad's birth? Just enjoy a good non sequitur, or what?

Though, really, it doesn't matter what aspect of Muhammad's life or the history of Islam you were talking about, since none of it took place in the Fifth Century!

Wait, I'm sorry, I meant to say none of it took place in the Fifth Century of the "Calendar Era".

 

[Toontown]

Yes.

It shows how little you care for things like "knowledge" and "facts".

No, it shows how desperate you are to browbeat and nitpick. It's a meaningless detail.

 

[Craig B]

Damn. You people must be desperate. You'll jump on anything like a pack of half starved hound dogs on a ham bone. Three of you.

But I'm sure it's desperately important that I say 6th instead of 5th. So desperately important.

Just don't let me catch any of you being an integer off.

Originally I thought you had made a mistake in chronology. It is important whether Islam originated in the seventh or the fifth century, as the political situation in Europe and the Near East changed enormously during those centuries. So the correction seemed worth making. If I had realised it simply arose from the fact that you don't know how to number centuries, I would probably have let it pass.

As to "CE", it was you who decided to offer us a definition of what it meant. It ill becomes you, therefore, to berate us for taking the trouble to correct your error.

 

[Toontown]

Never heard of "calendar era", ANTPogo? You either, Craig?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar_era

Well, now you have.

 

[A'isha]

Never heard of "calendar era", ANTPogo?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar_era

Of course I have. It's also not what "CE" as used in (for instance) "570 CE" stands for.

I suppose you could say something like "Muhammad was born in the year 570 of the calendar era known as CE", but "CE" would still not stand for "calendar era", and would still stand for the proper "Common Era" (ie, "Muhammad was born in the year 570 of the calendar era known as the Common Era").

Or you could stop digging, Toontown.