Does Islam belong in Germany?

[Toontown]

By that definition I think the only ideas that need to prevail are respect for human rights, dignity, and tolerance for other people.

Those are some of the hallmarks of an advanced civilization.

However, it's going to take more than that to prosper in the next couple of centuries. It's going to take a great deal of knowledge and tecnology. Any religion (or political theory) that doesn't get with the program is headed for the ash heap, because most people are going to choose survival and prosperity over demonstrably false ideologies. It will be difficult to maintain belief in false ideologies if the world's education systems do what they must do.

As long as we embrace those ideas, it doesn't matter much if Mormonism gains ground over Baptists, or if Islam grows in comparison to Christianity.

The embrace of those ideas will be a luxury humanity will be unable to maintain unless it embraces the education, knowledge, and technology to deal with the difficulties facing it over the next two critical centuries.

Therefore, humanity will probably meander in that direction. And that will probably be the death knell of the religions. And they know it.

If that day comes, an old argument about whether a minority religion should be assimilated into a country's identity will seem quaint and silly. On that day, people will have rights and dignity, but beliefs will have no rights at all. Beliefs will stand or fall on merit.

 

[Virus]

I really don't understand the problem with what this German politician said. If the Prime Minister of Japan said that Islam isn't a part of Japanese identity would there be outrage?

It is interesting how only the West is expected to embrace everything and anything on equal footing. Such demands are never made of other cultures.

 

[A'isha]

I really don't understand the problem with what this German politician said.

Of course you don't.

If the Prime Minister of Japan said that Islam isn't a part of Japanese identity would there be outrage?

It is interesting how only the West is expected to embrace everything and anything on equal footing. Such demands are never made of other cultures.

Japan doesn't have a large number of Muslim immigrants, like Germany does. And politicians in Japan have indeed come under fire both at home and in the West for their comments about the large(ish) immigrant population that Japan does have - Koreans.

So much for your attempt at a tu quoque.

EDIT: And is this an example of your "superior Western culture", Virus? "We shouldn't be expected to live up to our own principles of religious freedom and liberty because other people don't!"

As John Stewart said, "If you don't stick to your values when they're being tested, they're not values: they're hobbies."

 

[Toontown]

ANTPogo, we have far more important principles to live up to besides trying not to give verbal offense to religious people. Freedom of speech, for example, is far more important than not giving verbal offense by it's practice.

Religious people are very easily offended. Too easily offended. However, feeling verbally offended does not prevent them from freely practicing their religion.

If they have a material grievance, then tell us about it. But if they just don't like something someone said, well...that's tough for them. Things are tough all over.

 

[Toontown]

I really don't understand the problem with what this German politician said. If the Prime Minister of Japan said that Islam isn't a part of Japanese identity would there be outrage?

Is there outrage? Or is this just a little thread rage, indulged in by a few internet ideologues?

If there is significant outrage over a few little words followed closely by a sop, then the monkey planet is sicker than I thought.

 

[Craig B]

ANTPogo, we have far more important principles to live up to besides trying not to give verbal offense to religious people. Freedom of speech, for example, is far more important than not giving verbal offense by it's practice.

Religious people are very easily offended. Too easily offended. However, feeling verbally offended does not prevent them from freely practicing their religion.

If they have a material greivance, then tell us about it. But if they just don't like something someone said, well...that's tough for them. Things are tough all over.

Even if all that is true, and it is certainly not all false, what does it have to do with whether a particular religious community has a place in a particular country? Moreover, "something someone said" might be philosophical disagreement, which is perfectly valid, or it might be incitement of a majority to persecute a minority, and people are most certainly entitled to complain when they are on the receiving end of that.

 

[Moss]

And what brought up the subject of Islam in general?

And to whom was Kauder referring when he said Muslims who are German citizens do belong, and have their rights?

The cause is actually rather irrelevant as we are discussing the actual statements of Kauder, not just what brought him to vent his mental digestion tract.
You are not familiar with the "distinction without difference", are you? It's the usual kauderwelsch disclaimer to soften the next inane statement, namely Islam does not belong to Germany, which for some rather odd reason actually just happens to concern those under the label German Muslims, without which that label does not even make sense.

Rejecting obviously bogus, false belief systems is not exclusionary politics. It's just smart. Smart people do it all the time. Especially scientists.

Hint: You don't have to herd people into concentration camps in order to reject their false beliefs. You can simply reject the false beliefs and let it go at that.

Yes, and I just happen to reject your notion that that was "just letting it go". That was a call to exclude non extremist Islam.
Let's go with another example of that: What would you expect to happen if someone said "Catholic citizens have a place in Germany, but the Catholic Church has not?"

You still seem convinced that you can get away with strawing me up as being convinced of whatever you want me to be convinced of, so you can say I'm wrong about it. Sorry, you can't.

But eventually I'll leave, then you can straw up a load of crap. But then I might come back, and torch all your straw again.

You were waffling about majorities and arguments by number. Suddenly the actual number do not concern you? Odd. You do realize that your "success and truth of ideas works by numbers" is actually argumentum ad populum?

What a crock. Tilt at windmills much?

What kind of disenfranchisement are you talking about? Take away their voting rights? That's the only enfranchisement they have to begin with, other than mandated protections under the law - which no minority can achieve on it's own, without the active involvement of the majority.

So...are you afraid that the majority, which grants the minority enfranchisement in the first place, might simply take it away if the minority doesn't have a loud enough voice?

German politics must be really wierd.

You know, the easy solution would be to issue bullhorns to all minority members (preferably unbeknownst to the disenfranchisement-prone majority). Then the minorities could be plenty loud.

But their false beliefs still wouldn't be part of the national identity. No amount of loud bullhorn-braying could accomplish that, but might make the majority want to disenfranchise them even more, and particularly relieve them of their bullhorns.

Odd, you seem to have no idea how institutionalized discrimination works. Or how marginalization starts with calls to disregard people on what they believe.
And as you constantly show your defense of Kauder is based on the same type of logical crud he made: Salafists bad therefore Islam bad. Sorry, but that is still the hasty generalization fallacy.

 

[A'isha]

Kauder is telling the same sort of lie that homophobes tell, where they claim, "Oh, I don't hate gay people, I just hate homosexuality."

 

[Craig B]

Kauder is telling the same sort of lie that homophobes tell, where they claim, "Oh, I don't hate gay people, I just hate homosexuality."

"Love the sinner, hate the sin!" as the televangelists say.

 

[A'isha]

"Love the sinner, hate the sin!" as the televangelists say.

Exactly. It's meaningless rhetoric, designed to deflect attention away from the discriminatory efforts of their bigotry.

"Islam doesn't belong in Germany, but Muslims do" is a nonsensical statement, because "Islam" simply does not exist independently of Muslims.

 

[Toontown]

Exactly. It's meaningless rhetoric, designed to deflect attention away from the discriminatory efforts of their bigotry.

"Islam doesn't belong in Germany, but Muslims do" is a nonsensical statement, because "Islam" simply does not exist independently of Muslims.

So? Alcoholics do not exist independently of alcohol either. Therefore, by your reasoning, booze "belongs", because alcoholics exist. But then your reasoning subtly changes when Kauder comes into the picture. You clearly don't think Kauder's beliefs "belong", simply because Kauder exists. You'd like to exclude Kauder's beliefs from the national identity and culture, wouldn't you. Don't try to lie to old Toontown. I'll read you like a cheap paperback novel.

 

[Toontown]

delete

 

[Craig B]

So? Alcoholics do not exist independently of alcohol either. Therefore, by your reasoning, booze "belongs", because alcoholics exist. But then your reasoning subtly changes when Kauder comes into the picture. You clearly don't think Kauder's beliefs "belong", simply because Kauder exists. You'd like to exclude Kauder's beliefs from the national identity and culture, wouldn't you. Don't try to lie to old Toontown. I'll read you like a cheap paperback novel.

You equate a religion and its adherents with a drug and its addicts. Thus, as alcoholism is bad, so booze doesn't belong. If you are not desirous of eliminating Islam and its adherents from Germany, why did you use such a highly-charged metaphor? You could equally well have said, knitting doesn't exist independently of people who knit.

That the reading material with which you are most at ease consists of cheap paperback novels comes as no great surprise to me, by the way.

 

[Toontown]

You equate a religion and its adherents with a drug and its addicts. Thus, as alcoholism is bad, so booze doesn't belong. If you are not desirous of eliminating Islam and its adherents from Germany, why did you use such a highly-charged metaphor? You could equally well have said, knitting doesn't exist independently of people who knit.

That the reading material with which you are most at ease consists of cheap paperback novels comes as no great surprise to me, by the way.

We're all trying to defeat ideas we think are wrong, aren't we. Note how you try to defeat my ideas by making me out to be a jackboot. Well. Two can play your little game. If you do not wish to eliminate me and my ideas from the face of the earth, then why are you accusing me of wanting to eliminate Muslims?

Got any other bright ideas?

If such a thing as a national identity exists, then it cannot be all-inclusive, simply because the sum of conflicting ideas is equal to nothing. Thus, if a national identity exists, then it is necessarily exclusive of some ideologies held by some citizens. And there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, it is necessary.

 

[Craig B]

We're all trying to defeat ideas we think are wrong, aren't we. Note how you try to defeat my ideas by making me out to be a jackboot. Well. Two can play your little game. If you do not wish to eliminate me and my ideas from the face of the earth, then why are you accusing me of wanting to eliminate Muslims?

Because you do, and I wish your ideas never to go unchallenged, and never to take effect. You can think what you like, for all I care. I want your ideas to be relegated to the margins of human thinking, where they belong along with flat-earthism.

Got any other bright ideas?

Plenty.

If such a thing as a national identity exists, then it cannot be all-inclusive, simply because the sum of conflicting ideas is equal to nothing. Thus, if a national identity exists, then it is necessarily exclusive of some ideologies held by some citizens. And there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, it is necessary.

Not necessary. Outrageous. If I adopt or change the ideology I embrace - does that change my national identity? If I were to become a Muslim, or a Mormon, for example - would that stop me from being Scottish? What a strange idea!

 

[Childlike Empress]

So? Alcoholics do not exist independently of alcohol either. Therefore, by your reasoning, ...

I'll read you like a cheap paperback novel.

From back to front, apparently. The analogy would be if Alcohol exists independent of Alcoholics, which it definitely does.

 

[Toontown]

Because you do, and I wish your ideas never to go unchallenged, and never to take effect. You can think what you like, for all I care. I want your ideas to be relegated to the margins of human thinking,!

I see. You do not want my ideas to be part of the national identity, so you misrepresent them and then try to margiinalize the misrepresentation.

While somehow managing to remain blissfully blind to your own flaming hypocrisy.

You're in flames, enemy guy.

Outrageous. If I adopt or change the ideology I embrace - does that change my national identity?

News flash: you don't have a national identity. You're not a nation. You're just a face in the crowd. That's all you'll ever be.

If I were to become a Muslim, or a Mormon, for example - would that stop me from being Scottish? What a strange idea!

You are beginning to display an inability to distinguish yourself from a country. Not a good sign.

If you become a Muslim, doing so does not force or obligate your country to assimilate Islamic beliefs into it's national identity. What a strange idea.

Dude...you just augered in. You stayed with that burning hulk too long. You should have hit the silk.

 

[A'isha]

So? Alcoholics do not exist independently of alcohol either.

Uh, yeah they do, actually. That is, in fact, the thing that makes them alcoholics.

Now, do you think that alcoholism exists independently of alcoholics, Toontown?

I'll read you like a cheap paperback novel.

At least then you'd be reading something.

 

[Toontown]

Uh, yeah they do, actually. That is, in fact, the thing that makes them alcoholics

Then, by that reasoning, Muslims exist independently of the beliefs which make them Muslims. And the beliefs exist independently of Islam, and Islam exists independently of the Koran, and the Koran exists independently of the Prophet, and the Prophet exists independently of God, and God exists independently of reality, and...

And Islam is too a part of German identity and culture. Is too, is too, is too!!!

Now, do you think that alcoholism exists independently of alcoholics, Toontown?

Do you think planets exist independently of gravity?

At least then you'd be reading something.

As opposed to what I'm reading now?

You appear to have joined the ranks of those who have lost it.

 

[DC]

Then, by that reasoning, Muslims exist independently of the beliefs which make them Muslims. And the beliefs exist independently of Islam, and Islam exists independently of the Koran, and the Koran exists independently of the Prophet, and the Prophet exists independently of God, and God exists independently of reality, and...

And Islam is too a part of German identity and culture. Is too, is too, is too!!!



Do you think planets exist independently of gravity?



As opposed to what I'm reading now?

You appear to have joined the ranks of those who have lost it.

many young people in germany identify themself as germans and as muslims.
are you saying they got it wrong? they cant be both? they certenly think they can, i guess they forgot to ask for permission at the authority Kauder and toontown.