Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Rare Truth]

...those ******** always get away....

Edited by LashL: 

Edited to properly mask profanity. Please see Rule 10 re: the auto-censor.

 

[a_unique_person]

Well firstly, I don't think that of itself that being followed gives you license to assault them.

Secondly, the degree of "provocation" surely depends on how far back GZ was. There's a big difference between someone being 6' away and 60' away (or more). How close was GZ, did he say anything, did he attempt to restrain TM? All these things are important in determining "provocation" and AFAIK are not known for sure.

My impression, which could certainly be wrong, is that GZ was hanging back, waiting for officers and not wanting a confrontation. That would put it at a pretty low level of "provocation".

It was a provocation.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

It was a provocation.

No it wasn't.

Gee, maybe it's not useful simply making assertions.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Well firstly, I don't think that of itself that being followed gives you license to assault them.

Secondly, the degree of "provocation" surely depends on how far back GZ was. There's a big difference between someone being 6' away and 60' away (or more). How close was GZ, did he say anything, did he attempt to restrain TM? All these things are important in determining "provocation" and AFAIK are not known for sure.

My impression, which could certainly be wrong, is that GZ was hanging back, waiting for officers and not wanting a confrontation. That would put it at a pretty low level of "provocation".

It was a provocation.

Hmm...somehow you don't seem like the one there that offered a reason for your opinion. Therefore I'll file it in this basket right beneath my desk.

 

[Giz]

It was a provocation.

Is there no proportionality in your world? Someone following peacefully at a distance is enough provocation to launch a serious physical assault?

 

[a_unique_person]

prov·o·ca·tion/ˌprävəˈkāSHən/
Noun:
Action or speech that provokes someone, esp. deliberately.
Action or speech held to be likely to prompt physical retaliation.
I think that's part of the contention, that following someone is not sufficient cause for the hilited part, if that's what happened.

There is also the moral -vs- legal distinction. For those who believe GZ was morally wrong to get out of car and/or follow TM, fine. Please don't confuse that with whether GZ did something illegal by following TM.

If TM had not been followed, assuming he did anything to GZ, this is still unclear, would anything have happened to GZ if he had not followed TM.

 

[Xulld]

Most murders here are either criminal on criminal, or domestic. The handfull of others throughout the year (and unfortunately, as in your friends case, they tend to be attacks on women) make for huge news stories because they are so rare still.

This proves my point. Dangerous people exist EVERYWHERE. Its nice you have less of them where you are . . . that is not evidence that self defense is not needed. The difference here is that your government has stripped you of your ability to equal the odds of defending yourself.

The US is huge, and some states have lower crime than your country has, and 10 times the number of guns. Guns are not the ingredient that causes the violence, that much is clear from the various facts and statistics.

It must be nice having convinced yourself that your personal well being is less important than the perceived safety of your society, and that if you feel safe, you must indeed be safe.

I dont want to side track this thread anymore, but I do want to ask you a question.

Statistics are all well and good, but as a person, how would you feel if your best friend was brutally murdered? Would you think defensive weapons should still be outlawed? Would you think it unfair that she/he could not defend themselves?

 

[Rare Truth]

Is there no proportionality in your world? Someone following peacefully at a distance is enough provocation to launch a serious physical assault?

He was following him with a gun, a tactical flashlight, with a *********** punks "******** always get away" mindset or as his BFF Frank Taaffe said Z was "mad as hell and he wasn't going to take it anymore" -- and we have a witness who saw said following and one who spoke with an "authoritative voice." There was a following, and it was *not* peaceful.

I will remind again, Zimmerman was specifically told by LEO to not get physically involved with any suspicious persons he reported.

Edited by LashL: 

Edited to properly mask profanity. Please see Rule 10 re: the auto-censor.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

If TM had not been followed, assuming he did anything to GZ, this is still unclear, would anything have happened to GZ if he had not followed TM.

If TM had gone straight home, assuming he did anything to GZ, this is still unclear, would anything have happened to GZ if TM had gone straight home.

 

[Rare Truth]

If TM had gone straight home, assuming he did anything to GZ, this is still unclear, would anything have happened to GZ if TM had gone straight home.

Considering Z was bound and determined to find him, and TM had a younger brother (to be) of 14 at home - who knows?

A lot of people don't think it's wise to bring a bad guy to your front door. (And I've no doubt TM thought Z was a bad guy, out to do him harm - and every bit as suspicious as Z thought TM was.)

 

[Xulld]

Considering Z was bound and determined to find him, and TM had a younger brother (to be) of 14 at home - who knows?

A lot of people don't think it's wise to bring a bad guy to your front door. (And I've no doubt TM thought Z was a bad guy, out to do him harm - and every bit as suspicious as Z thought TM was.)

Simple question. Does all of these things you believe add up to a justification for assault?

 

[a_unique_person]

If TM had gone straight home, assuming he did anything to GZ, this is still unclear, would anything have happened to GZ if TM had gone straight home.

Leading someone who is following you to your home? I have been followed, by people in a car. The last thing I wanted was for them to know where I lived.

 

[Giz]

He was following him with a gun.

I suggest that if GZ was legally permitted to carry a gun (he was), and he usually carried it (who knows), then him carrying it would not show malicious intent and would merely, as on any other day, be a last ditch insurance policy against being assaulted and possibly killed.

a tactical flashlight, .

Horrors, he was following him with a "tactical" flashlight?! Oh please, don't turn this into a comedy.

I will remind again, Zimmerman was specifically told by LEO to not get physically involved with any suspicious persons he reported.

I will remind you:
A) following from a distance is not "getting physically involved"
B) the dispatcher (who is not a LEO) merely said that "we don't need you to do that". Not "don't do that".

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Leading someone who is following you to your home? I have been followed, by people in a car. The last thing I wanted was for them to know where I lived.

TM was less than 100 yards from safety. An average youth can run the 100 yard dash in 12-15 seconds. Instead, TM hid in the dark in between houses instead of going home, going to a neighbor or well lit street.

That's implausible, in my opinion.

I don't understand the whole 'my address is a secret' thing either. If the choice is between the safety of your home, or choosing to not reveal your address and staying in danger, you choose to not reveal your address ? Because you think anyone who follows you is going to do what ... come back and murder you later ? Especially if you don't even really live there ? That's ridiculous.

 

[Unabogie]

Considering Z was bound and determined to find him, and TM had a younger brother (to be) of 14 at home - who knows?

A lot of people don't think it's wise to bring a bad guy to your front door. (And I've no doubt TM thought Z was a bad guy, out to do him harm - and every bit as suspicious as Z thought TM was.)

Zimmerman was a bad guy and Martin had every right to consider him dangerous. After all, Zimmerman killed him. So if Martin had a bad feeling about the creep who got out of the car, then he was a perceptive kid (prior to being killed by George Zimmerman).

Somehow, the fact that Zimmerman shot him dead never plays into the concept of "reasonable fear" or "injuries". Some people in this thread even described Trayvon as having "no injuries" and compared those to Zimmerman's head scrape.

The case still boils down to this: wannabe cop profiles "suspicious" black youth, calls him an *******, then leaves his car, armed, to go find him, even after the dispatcher and NW rules say to let the police handle things. They tussle, and he shoots the kid dead. Then he claims self-defense.

That's the case. If you believe the guy with the anger management history, the assault charge, and the domestic violence restraining order over the dead kid, that's a choice, I suppose. But the whole case relies on George Zimmerman's credibility. And judging from what I know of the guy, his credibility is for *****.

 

[Unabogie]

TM was less than 100 yards from safety. An average youth can run the 100 yard dash in 12-15 seconds. Instead, TM hid in the dark in between houses instead of going home, going to a neighbor or well lit street.

That's implausible, in my opinion.

I don't understand the whole 'my address is a secret' thing either. If the choice is between the safety of your home, or choosing to not reveal your address and staying in danger, you choose to not reveal your address ? Because you think anyone who follows you is going to do what ... come back and murder you later ? Especially if you don't even really live there ? That's ridiculous.

If someone was following you on your way home in a car, you'd pull into your own driveway? I don't find that credible.

 

[Unabogie]

There are even pages devoted to advising people on how to handle this situation.

http://voices.yahoo.com/what-if-someone-starts-following-ten-safety-4283487.html

1 - Don't panic. Take deep breaths; calm yourself so that you can think clearly. Get your mind on looking around you to see if there is someplace safe you can go.
2 - Don't assume. They may not be following you, but also don't take any chances. Always assume the worst so that you will take the maximum precautions.
3 - Look for the nearest place that has other people. It's better to be around other people if someone has started following you. There is safety in numbers. If you know of a place where other people are gathered, go there, right away. It doesn't matter if they are strangers or not, just get to where other people are, even if it means interrupting gatherings or other personal occasions. If necessary, let yourself into someone's house; whatever it takes to get to safety.
4 - Run. If you think someone is following you, start running right away, don't wait for them to get closer.
5 - Scream. Yell and scream as loud as you can, while running. Don't let the possibility of embarrassment at being wrong stop you from screaming. Yell for help, so that others who hear you will know what you need.
6 - Use your cell phone. Call the police, or a cab or anyone else in the nearby vicinity that can come help you. Don't waste your time calling someone far away that cannot do anything for you.
7 - Drive to a police station. If someone follows you while driving, try to get their license plate number while driving to a police station.
8 - Do not stop. If you believe you are being followed, don't stop to check who they might be or to talk on your cell phone, or to cry or anything else. All of these things can be done while walking or running. Just keep moving, away from whoever it is that is following you.
9 - Look for places of refuge and weapons. Look for places where you can hide, or at least keep yourself safe. Also, look for anything you can use as a weapon should it become necessary to protect yourself. Consider anything mad of metal that would main should it be used to strike someone.
10 - Don't talk to them. If they call out to you, or signal you, don't respond. They may be trying to slow you down or confuse you to get the advantage. Simply ignore them and keep moving.




Weird, this writer seems to understand that a stranger who's following you is a cause for concern.

 

[GWCarver]

If TM was circling the truck, in a manner that GZ found threatening, then he should have just driven off rather than leaving his place of safety. An unarmed man is not a plausible threat to an armed man in a locked, functional truck. If TM had tried to enter the truck, GZ would have been under no obligation to get out and run, which is the sort of situation that SYG was made for, but if he got out and engaged TM, be it with words, fists or his gun, he's choosing to escalate the conflict when he could end it by driving away. (he could have spoken with TM through a partially closed window in relative safety, if he'd wanted to remain safe till the police got there) GZ has already been told that the police are on their way and that he doesn't need to follow TM. This continues to sound like a guy who went looking for trouble with his gun, and found some.

The Sentinel reported its source said TM "circled" Zimmerman's truck. It was the reporter who pulled "circling" out of thin air. (Ten more posts and I can provide the exact source.) So, you need to start over.

 

[Rare Truth]

I suggest that if GZ was legally permitted to carry a gun (he was), and he usually carried it (who knows), then him carrying it would not show malicious intent and would merely, as on any other day, be a last ditch insurance policy against being assaulted and possibly killed.

Then you don't go pursuing a confrontation where you might be killed.

Horrors, he was following him with a "tactical" flashlight?! Oh please, don't turn this into a comedy.

Just reporting what he was found with upon being being put in handcuffs.
A tactical flashlight.

I will remind you:
A) following from a distance is not "getting physically involved"

When he got out of his truck, he became physically involved,

B) the dispatcher (who is not a LEO) merely said that "we don't need you to do that". Not "don't do that".

LEO said more than that.

This is what it said in the Sanford Police Department Neighborhood Watch Handbook:

You will add your “eyes and ears” to
those of the Police Department which
cannot be everywhere, all the time, by
keeping a watchful eye and open ear to
what is happening in your
neighborhood. You will extend their
ability to provide security by reporting
anything unusual or suspicious, 24 hours
a day, seven days a week, so they can
follow up on your leads. What you will
not do is get physically involved with
any activity you report or
apprehension of any suspicious
persons. This is the job of the law
enforcement agency.

^^^^ Emphasis THEIRS.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/NWProgramHandbook.pdf

In big bold-up fonts the above words there INSIST people are not to " get physically involved with any activity you report or apprehen[d] of any suspicious persons."

They do that in not only one area of the NW Guidelines, but twice.
In BOLD letters.

We KNOW Zimmerman was told by police this, as Z was the one who helped facilitate the NW meeting with the Sanford Police Chief for guidelines, and as contact and Captain would necessarily need to be informed of the rules:

Twin Lakes at Retreat news letter -Sept 2011:
George Zimmerman's name listed as contact & that Chief Lee was coming to next meeting:

RTL Newsletter September 2011 FINAL

Feb 2012 Twin Lakes at Retreat news letter - George Zimmerman identified as Captain. :RTL February 2012 Newsletter

SFP -meeting with residents after shooting - Relaying Zimmerman was acting as NW at the time: Sanford PD Meeting

In addition:

In September, the Sanford police helped the Retreat start a neighborhood watch program.

"Some residents called me wanting to do a startup," said Dorival, a civilian police employee. About 30 people came to the clubhouse for that first session, she said. "Everyone was enthusiastic." Zimmerman volunteered to be captain.

"I told them, this is not about being a vigilante police force," Dorival said. "You're not even supposed to patrol on neighborhood watch. And you're certainly not supposed to carry a gun."

Trayvon Martin's killing shatters safety within Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford - Tampa Bay Times

 

[Rare Truth]

In addition, from another article:

"Wendy Dorival, the volunteer coordinator for the Police Department in Sanford stated at a meeting ZImmerman attended and volunteered to be NW Captain: "In every presentation, “I go through what the rules and responsibilities are,” she said Thursday. The volunteers’ role, she said, is “being the eyes and ears” for the police, “not the vigilante.” Members of a neighborhood watch “are not supposed to confront anyone,” she said. “We get paid to get into harm’s way. You don’t do that. You just call them from the safety of your home or your vehicle.”

Using a gun in the neighborhood watch role would be out of the question, she said in an interview.

In Sanford, she said, watch groups are not even supposed to make the rounds. That is the job of another kind of volunteer organization, Citizens on Patrol, whose members are selected and trained by the police and who drive the streets in a specially marked vehicle. Members of that group, Ms. Dorival said, “are armed only with a radio.”

...The manual warns that watch members should “not attempt to apprehend a person committing a crime or to investigate a suspicious activity.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/u...neighborhood-watch-groups.html?pagewanted=all