Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[johnny karate]

For this aggressive act of civic virtue, an affronted youth with anger issues attacked him and then continued to beat him whilst he was prone on the concrete.

That squares with the known facts as well as anything else.

It does? What "facts" are there to tell us Martin had anger issues?

Was it because he once assaulted a police officer? Oh, wait a minute... that's right. It was Zimmerman who assaulted a police officer.

You gotta love this thread... if anyone dare speculate about Zimmerman's state of mind, it's snarky assertions of psychic powers in response.

But those same posters give unsubstantiated nonsense like the above a pass.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

Had GZ not removed himself from the truck, where he said he was fearful of this 'suspicious' dude, a dude so aggressive, according to Z, he "circled' his vehicle, thus causing an imminent threat -- then we can say with 99.99% certainty, the killing of Mr. Martin would have never occurred.

If TM was circling the truck, in a manner that GZ found threatening, then he should have just driven off rather than leaving his place of safety. An unarmed man is not a plausible threat to an armed man in a locked, functional truck. If TM had tried to enter the truck, GZ would have been under no obligation to get out and run, which is the sort of situation that SYG was made for, but if he got out and engaged TM, be it with words, fists or his gun, he's choosing to escalate the conflict when he could end it by driving away. (he could have spoken with TM through a partially closed window in relative safety, if he'd wanted to remain safe till the police got there) GZ has already been told that the police are on their way and that he doesn't need to follow TM. This continues to sound like a guy who went looking for trouble with his gun, and found some.

 

[This is The End]

You must really hate walking through town with all those people following you.

Wow, that argument was debunked back on page 10 or so..

There is a huge difference between:

A: "following" someone in a crowded mall or street

and

B: Huge area at night with only 2 people. One of them starts following the other.

(A) can be just someone randomly behind you, (B) basically cannot be random. Therefore B is way more intimidating.

I really can't believe anyone could try and equate the two things.

 

[Rare Truth]

Perhaps I live in a strange world, but getting told I don't have to do something is not the same as being told not to do something.

One is that suggestion that it doesn't have to be done, the other is a request to that it not be done. The not 911 operator never told GZ not to follow, merely that there was no need.

Neighborhood Watch Captain George was specifically instructed not to get physically involved in people reported as suspicious.

 

[Rare Truth]

Again incorrect, it is a witness statement, and regardlessof whether you want to accept it or not, it has more value that anything said here.


Evidence of witnesses is evidence of witnesses, it should never be discarded merely on the basis you don't like the witness or what he is saying. It should be weighed with all the other facts and evidence and then determined if it should be accepted.


Perhaps. If TM did actually return at least the "T" junction, he might have returned all the way to the car had GZ been there and then the argument developed there, one can't suggest anything for certainty.


We know that it stated by an independant witness.


I'm one of the first to note that eyewittess testimony is flawed by human perception and recollection, in fact you even quoted me saying that in the next paragraph. However, it is usually the minor details they get wrong, or they miss things they weren't looking for, it is very rare to find a witness that gets everything about what they saw wrong. What we have is general witness statments, the colour of clothing, what sort of things were said. It's rare for those to be wrong.


Maybe, maybe not, his staying or not staying in the car was far from the deciding factor in what happened.

And there is a witness who said GZ continued to follow, and even chased TM.

DE LA RIONDA: Isn’t it true, sir, that at least one witness described a person chasing another person in the back of that area where that murder occurred?

GILBREATH: Yes.
...
O’MARA: A couple of questions...The continued to follow that Mr. Zimmerman continued to follow
what evidence do you have to support that?

GILBREATH: He was told not to follow him, he continued on for a period of time.

O’MARA: How long?

GILBREATH: I don't know … I would say less than a minute before he hung up, which is prior to the encounter between the two,

O’MARA: Okay. Any other evidence besides that there was a phone call that he was on for a minute? Any other evidence, any other witnesses?

GILBREATH: To?

O’MARA: To the fact that he quote continued to follow.

GILBREATH: We have a witness statement who observed, that was on the perimeter of this, who observed shadows or figures, excuse me, running by her residence.

O’MARA: Do you know which way or who they were, or anything?

GILBREATH: They...I cannot identify who they were, but it was at the same time frame this occurred.

O’MARA: Ok. Besides that - any other evidence to support your conclusion that Mr. Zimmerman continued to follow?

GILBREATH: Other than his call and that witness?

O’MARA: Yes.

GILBREATH: And the fact that where it ended up. No.

O’MARA: Well you do have some other evidence don’t you? We had Zimmerman’s statement, don’t you?

GILBREATH: We have Mr. Zimmerman’s statements, we have the shell casings and we had Mr. Martin’s body at the scene.

​

http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

 

[LTC8K6]

I think you are totally wrong. George's recorded call gives us a lot of information about where where George was that is inconsistent with George stopping at the dispatchers request. There is also the walkthrough the next morning as relayed by George's father that says he went on the Retrete View Circle before turning back and the location where they ended the altercation which is inconsistent with returning straight back to the truck. There will definitely be more evidence but it will be difficult to take away what we already know.

I think GZ does indeed walk over towards where he thinks TM went, but he is not following TM, he is just trying to keep him in sight, or see where he went.

I think GZ does not run after TM, but after a bit, he does go where he thinks TM went. GZ is not close behind TM, he is maybe 30 seconds or a minute behind TM. I can't say for sure. I don't know.

So GZ could have been returning to his truck and TM could indeed have come up behind him, without any glaring inconsistencies in GZ's account.

Or, there could be more info out there that changes the timing and locations, and I just haven't heard it yet.

 

[LTC8K6]

And there is a witness who said GZ continued to follow, and even chased TM.

DE LA RIONDA: Isn’t it true, sir, that at least one witness described a person chasing another person in the back of that area where that murder occurred?

GILBREATH: Yes.
...
O’MARA: A couple of questions...The continued to follow that Mr. Zimmerman continued to follow
what evidence do you have to support that?

GILBREATH: He was told not to follow him, he continued on for a period of time.

O’MARA: How long?

GILBREATH: I don't know … I would say less than a minute before he hung up, which is prior to the encounter between the two,

O’MARA: Okay. Any other evidence besides that there was a phone call that he was on for a minute? Any other evidence, any other witnesses?

GILBREATH: To?

O’MARA: To the fact that he quote continued to follow.

GILBREATH: We have a witness statement who observed, that was on the perimeter of this, who observed shadows or figures, excuse me, running by her residence.

O’MARA: Do you know which way or who they were, or anything?

GILBREATH: They...I cannot identify who they were, but it was at the same time frame this occurred.

O’MARA: Ok. Besides that - any other evidence to support your conclusion that Mr. Zimmerman continued to follow?

GILBREATH: Other than his call and that witness?

O’MARA: Yes.

GILBREATH: And the fact that where it ended up. No.

O’MARA: Well you do have some other evidence don’t you? We had Zimmerman’s statement, don’t you?

GILBREATH: We have Mr. Zimmerman’s statements, we have the shell casings and we had Mr. Martin’s body at the scene.

​

http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

That witness will probably not even testify. The claim is very weak, imo. Shadows running by?

Also, one person running can create two shadows with 2 light sources.

 

[Rare Truth]

That witness will probably not even testify. The claim is very weak, imo. Shadows running by?

Also, one person running can create two shadows with 2 light sources.

Do I need remind you it was a Bond hearing, not a trial? The particulars are going to come out soon, when discovery & sunshine start power blasting. Something like 10,000 pages are waiting to be dropped.

The continued to follow is part of the charging affidavit. I'm fairly confident that witness will be a part of it, along with the others we may not have heard from, along with the physical evidence and forensic analysis which will tie it all together in a murder 2 bow.

Need I also remind you the great bulk of that evidence, as yet, none of us have seen?

 

[WildCat]

An unarmed man is not a plausible threat to an armed man in a locked, functional truck.

And just how would Zimmerman know Martin was unarmed? Psychic powers?

 

[LTC8K6]

Do I need remind you it was a Bond hearing, not a trial? The particulars are going to come out soon, when discovery & sunshine start power blasting. Something like 10,000 pages are waiting to be dropped.

The continued to follow is part of the charging affidavit. I'm fairly confident that witness will be a part of it, along with the others we may not have heard from, along with the physical evidence and forensic analysis which will tie it all together in a murder 2 bow.

Need I also remind you the great bulk of that evidence, as yet, none of us have seen?

I actually think we have seen the great bulk of the evidence that matters, but we'll see.

I haven't read the charging affidavit in full.

I actually haven't paid much attention to any of the proceedings, and I won't, until the trial. I really haven't even read transcripts or paperwork.

As far as promises of evidence, I've heard it before.

Crystal Mangum's supporters, and prosecutor Mike Nifong, promised strong evidence against the Duke LAX players right up until the moment the case blew up in their faces.

They also claimed weak evidence was strong evidence.

They also used trivial inconsistencies as if they were major lies.

Crystal Mangum's supporters are still saying they have evidence that the LAX players raped and sodomized her. We just haven't seen it yet.

This case could certainly be different, of course.

I will wait until the prosecution's evidence bag is actually opened before I condemn GZ to life in prison.

 

[Rare Truth]

And just how would Zimmerman know Martin was unarmed? Psychic powers?

All the more reason to not get out of the damned truck! Der.

 

[LTC8K6]

All the more reason to not get out of the damned truck! Der.

Could he see where TM went from the truck?

 

[Rare Truth]

Could he see where TM went from the truck?

Doesn't matter. Neighborhood Watch Captain George was specifically instructed not to get physically involved in people reported as suspicious, nor investigate suspicious activity.

 

[a_unique_person]

Could he see where TM went from the truck?

Did he need to see where TM went?

 

[a_unique_person]

Or; bad things happen when individuals launch an unprovoked, unforeseen assault, putting someone in fear of their life.

Following people is a provocation.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Following people is a provocation.

prov·o·ca·tion/ˌprävəˈkāSHən/
Noun:
Action or speech that provokes someone, esp. deliberately.
Action or speech held to be likely to prompt physical retaliation.
I think that's part of the contention, that following someone is not sufficient cause for the hilited part, if that's what happened.

There is also the moral -vs- legal distinction. For those who believe GZ was morally wrong to get out of car and/or follow TM, fine. Please don't confuse that with whether GZ did something illegal by following TM.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The continued to follow is part of the charging affidavit. I'm fairly confident that witness will be a part of it, along with the others we may not have heard from, along with the physical evidence and forensic analysis which will tie it all together in a murder 2 bow.

I think you are in a very small minority with regards to murder 2.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

All I know thus far is this, GZ should have stayed in his ******* car. He didn't and a confrontation resulted. TM could have attacked GZ. TM could have reasonably been in fear of his life. I have the honesty to admit that thus far that is what I know.

All I know thus far is this,TM should kept ******* walking home. He didn't and a confrontation resulted.

 

[Rare Truth]

I think you are in a very small minority with regards to murder 2.

I've said manslaughter from day one, but that still doesn't mean Ms. Corey will not tie a murder 2 bow.

 

[Giz]

Following people is a provocation.

Well firstly, I don't think that of itself that being followed gives you license to assault them.

Secondly, the degree of "provocation" surely depends on how far back GZ was. There's a big difference between someone being 6' away and 60' away (or more). How close was GZ, did he say anything, did he attempt to restrain TM? All these things are important in determining "provocation" and AFAIK are not known for sure.

My impression, which could certainly be wrong, is that GZ was hanging back, waiting for officers and not wanting a confrontation. That would put it at a pretty low level of "provocation".