Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[TSR]

I'm not talking about any trend BS. I'm talking about live, vibrant children dying immediately after receiving a vaccine inoculation.

Then you are once again, talking crap about conventional medicine based on naught but you own perverted need that it be so.

You demonstrate this by not being able to to document a *single* case of such an immediate death.

Or are you redefining "immediate" as you have so many other words?

Why are you continuing to ignore the US studies you were whining about, and why won't you address the nappie issue?

 

[TSR]

Are their deaths some sort of joke to you?

No, they are some sort of perverted fantasy to you.

 

[Mudcat]

I truly don't understand how you can respond as if there are no children dying immediately and within 24 hours of a vaccine inoculation.

I don't deny that some of the children died within 24 hours or receiving a vaccine, but what you're doing here is engaging in a confirmation bias.

Are their deaths some sort of joke to you?

I assure you it's not a joke to me, nor do I consider those deaths to be sinister, or indicative of anything sinister. It could simply be that the children that died after receiving vaccinations might have had them administered improperly and bubbles form in their blood vessels, maybe they were allergic to the vaccine, or maybe they died of something completely unrelated.

Until those possibilities are eliminated the vaccine isn't a suspect.

 

[Clayton Moore]

I don't deny that some of the children died within 24 hours or receiving a vaccine, but what you're doing here is engaging in a confirmation bias.




I assure you it's not a joke to me, nor do I consider those deaths to be sinister, or indicative of anything sinister. It could simply be that the children that died after receiving vaccinations might have had them administered improperly and bubbles form in their blood vessels, maybe they were allergic to the vaccine, or maybe they died of something completely unrelated.

Until those possibilities are eliminated the vaccine isn't a suspect.

Your post reminds me of the medical community insisting to many 10s of thousands parents, who noticed their toddlers became autistic soon after their MMR vaccine inoculation, that they were mistaken.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Isn't it odd. Clayton makes an appeal to emotion, asking if deaths mean little to us, or are jokes, and calling statistical trends BS. Yet all I can ponder is how little the deaths must mean to clayton for him to use them to indulge in pushing a groundless argument.

Personally I think it shows more respect look at possible causes that may actually lead to evidence of a truth so the families can gain closure and further harm prevented. Stamping feet and refusing to look past a favoured scapegoat for which there is no evidence is not only unhelpful, devoid of respect and ethically dubious, but also more than a tad hypocritcal of somebody who assumes others don't care.

If you cared a jot it would be for the truth, not for what you wish the truth to be. You would look at all common factors,not just vaccines, and all studies not just those from the US.

 

[TSR]

If you cared a jot it would be for the truth, not for what you wish the truth to be. You would look at all common factors,not just vaccines, and all studies not just those from the US.

CM has not even looked at the US studies zie was whining about -- it doesn't really matter to zie.

 

[Mudcat]

Your post reminds me of the medical community insisting to many 10s of thousands parents, who noticed their toddlers became autistic soon after their MMR vaccine inoculation, that they were mistaken.

Evidence, or it didn't happen.

Edited to add: they were mistaken. It's just more confirmation bias.

 

[Mudcat]

CM has not even looked at the US studies zie was whining about -- it doesn't really matter to zie.

A question from a native English speaker, is zie a masculine pronoun similar to he/him or gender neutral like them/their?

 

[TSR]

A question from a native English speaker, is zie a masculine pronoun similar to he/him or gender neutral like them/their?

neutral. zie == he or she, when gender is unknown or irrelevant
zir == his or hers, ditto ditto

them / their is a plural form, zie / zir singular

 

[Mudcat]

neutral. zie == he or she, when gender is unknown or irrelevant
zir == his or hers, ditto ditto

them / their is a plural form, zie / zir singular

Them/their can be singular as well.

 

[pakeha]

Any medicine methodology that has caused seizures, mild or essentially instant death, is bad medicine. ...

Could you cite some sources to where this has happened, please? other than:

...http://www.prisonplanet.com/vaccine-deaths-and-injuries-skyrocket-as-cover-up-implodes.html

That reads like tabloid reporting- sensationalist and subjective. I'd be interested in reading something more serious.
You've seen how India carried on with polio vaccination and its results?
http://www.internationalskeptics.co...p=7928772&highlight=polio+Nigeria#post7928772

I truly don't understand how you can respond as if there are no children dying immediately and within 24 hours of a vaccine inoculation. ..

How does this compare to the number of children dying with 24 hours of eating pizza?
Perhaps it sounds flippant but I want to underline the fact that you can cite ANY activity and then claim children die within 24 hours of it. I'd like to see some evidence it was the vaccine itself that is at fault here.

Your post reminds me of the medical community insisting to many 10s of thousands parents, who noticed their toddlers became autistic soon after their MMR vaccine inoculation, that they were mistaken.

But hasn't it been shown they were, in fact, mistaken?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Once again, why can't all the medical community with its technology and medical histories figure this out? You have seen the commercial about 1 in 88 children becoming autistic haven't you? What percentage of children have to become autistic before you freaking wake up?

 

[Orphia Nay]

From the Cochrane Review (which reviews clinical trials):

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ionid=00BA082EDC6C30FB9B6DD4DB7BBD4F3D.d01t03

"We included five randomised controlled trials (RCTs), one controlled clinical trial (CCT), 27 cohort studies, 17 case-control studies, five time-series trials, one case cross-over trial, two ecological studies, six self controlled case series studies involving in all about 14,700,000 children and assessing effectiveness and safety of MMR vaccine. Based on the available evidence, one MMR vaccine dose is at least 95% effective in preventing clinical measles and 92% effective in preventing secondary cases among household contacts.

[...]

"We could assess no significant association between MMR immunisation and the following conditions: autism, asthma, leukaemia, hay fever, type 1 diabetes, gait disturbance, Crohn's disease, demyelinating diseases, or bacterial or viral infections. The methodological quality of many of the included studies made it difficult to generalise their results."

 

[Clayton Moore]

From the Cochrane Review (which reviews clinical trials):

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ionid=00BA082EDC6C30FB9B6DD4DB7BBD4F3D.d01t03

"We included five randomised controlled trials (RCTs), one controlled clinical trial (CCT), 27 cohort studies, 17 case-control studies, five time-series trials, one case cross-over trial, two ecological studies, six self controlled case series studies involving in all about 14,700,000 children and assessing effectiveness and safety of MMR vaccine. Based on the available evidence, one MMR vaccine dose is at least 95% effective in preventing clinical measles and 92% effective in preventing secondary cases among household contacts.

[...]

"We could assess no significant association between MMR immunisation and the following conditions: autism, asthma, leukaemia, hay fever, type 1 diabetes, gait disturbance, Crohn's disease, demyelinating diseases, or bacterial or viral infections. The methodological quality of many of the included studies made it difficult to generalise their results."

Excellent response to my post.

Once again, why can't all the medical community with its technology and medical histories figure this out? You have seen the commercial about 1 in 88 children becoming autistic haven't you? What percentage of children have to become autistic before you freaking wake up?

Please enlighten us as to why those geniuses can't figure out why all those toddlers, now 1 in 88, are becoming autistic.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Excellent response to my post.

Which you ignored.

Please enlighten us as to why those geniuses can't figure out why all those toddlers, now 1 in 88, are becoming autistic.

1. Addition of Asperger's to the spectrum.
2. Increased surveillance.
3. Better knowledge of the disease, making detection easier.
4. More trained diagnosticians.
5. Greater acceptance by parents to admit their child is autistic.
6. Applying modern criteria to historical records yields similar rates of diagnoses.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-increase-in-autism-diagnoses-two-hypotheses/

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080408112107.htm

 

[Tomtomkent]

Clayton, do you understand a burden of proof?

Varying reasons for children "becoming" autistic have been discussed here and in other threads at length. Notably through viral means or genetic disposition. It has also been pointed out most the kids were already autistic but not yet at an age when the symptoms would be apparent. This is not the same as "becoming" autistic.

You can throw sarcastic insults like your "genius" quip around all you like, but answer a simple question:

When did "unknown cause" become "vaccine". Even if you were right to pretend causes were unknown why does that make your claim, directly contradicted by evidence, right?

That is the same as a religious nut saying "scientists cant explain it, so it was the devil!" Or aliens. Or muppets.


If you want to look like you are in a place where you can make a quip about who is or is not a genius, convince me you are right. It's simple. Show me evidence of vaccines having a causal relationship and eliminate any other commonality.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Please enlighten us as to why those geniuses can't figure out why all those toddlers, now 1 in 88, are becoming autistic.

Please enlighten us to how this is a relevant question, when we know for a fact it's not the vaccinations.

 

[Dcdrac]

A television commercial is not scientific proof in fact to say that is the basis for beleiving a vaccine causes autism is taking the absurd to whole new level

 

[Clayton Moore]

A television commercial is not scientific proof in fact to say that is the basis for beleiving a vaccine causes autism is taking the absurd to whole new level

Just tell me why the cause can't be determined.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Just tell me why the cause can't be determined.

It can be. It has yet to be. A distinct difference.

Apparently researching all possible causes and establishing a confirmed link takes time.

What is the relevence when the possibility between vaccine and autism has been discredited?