Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Dan O.]

I don't know that it's really worth getting into again ... but ... such as ?

Here is the call. You can hear the car door open and the wind start to 'whistle' in the phone and the then operator asks 'are you following' and after he says 'we don't don't need you to do that' the wind noise stops about 15 seconds after that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KgR7gCxXQYg#t=124s

Do you know what direction the wind was blowing and what effect the buildings and vegitation would have on the wind in the area? Are there any other sounds on the tape that could be caused by the wind and help identify where George was at that time? Where exactly was George's truck parked and how long does it take him to reach Retrete View Circle?

 

[PhantomWolf]

My friend a pacifist, vegetarian, volunteer at the animal rescue, and my first love was brutally murdered by a stranger 15 minutes after opening up shop at the pet store she was working at. She was beaten with a fire extinguisher, then raped. I have always had guns, but before that never carried them. Since then, I will never be without. If at anytime I can protect myself, or any other innocent person from having such violence met out against them I will. It is just a fact of the environment that a percentage of honest, caring and kind citizens will meet such an end.

Thank you for proving my point.

Either your society is highly violent, which you seem to be saying, leading to people having to protect themselves against all of those violent people, which would be a sad inditement on such a violent crazed society, or it is perceived to be far more violent than it really is. Either way, hideously sad.

Note here that I live in a society where the Police are not armed openly with anything other than batons and pepper spray, even Tasers are rare, though are now carried by some trained officers. Guns are only carried when there is an expectation of being confronted with a weapon during a job. Most citizens feel generally safe with the likelihood of a having a pistol pulled on you is near zero. Having a knife pulled is higher, but still incredibly low. Most murders here are either criminal on criminal, or domestic. The handfull of others throughout the year (and unfortunately, as in your friends case, they tend to be attacks on women) make for huge news stories because they are so rare still.

Here's a basic break down from last year (2011).

In total there were 47 unlawful killings in New Zealand, 13 of which were classified as Manslaughter or less.

Of the others...

11 were attacks from family or people well known to an adult victim, with another 5 cases where the victim was a child.

6 cases were from fights or assualts that occured at parties where alcohol was involved

In 6 cases the cause is unknown, or hasn't been reported

3 cases were the result of drugs or organised crime

2 cases were burglaries, one of which was a business

and only 1 was an unprovoked assualt on a passer by.

Considering that we have over 4 million people in the country, I don't think there is a need to carry a gun here, at all.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I think you are totally wrong. George's recorded call gives us a lot of information about where where George was that is inconsistent with George stopping at the dispatchers request.

Perhaps I live in a strange world, but getting told I don't have to do something is not the same as being told not to do something.

One is that suggestion that it doesn't have to be done, the other is a request to that it not be done. The not 911 operator never told GZ not to follow, merely that there was no need.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Did you ever get out of your truck and follow one of those police officers into a dark alley without identifying yourself but openly speaking on your phone about him running and not knowing where hie is?

I love the attributation of super powers to TM through the use of hindsight.

Not only was he totally aware that GZ got out of his truck, some 30-50m behind him and behind a house, but he knew exactly what GZ was saying and that the phone call GZ was making was about him.

Funny thing, if I saw a car going slowly up the street behind me, then it passed me and stopped, and I saw the person was on the phone, I'd assume that they got a phone call and were talking on the phone before pulling over. If I was running and out of sight of them before they even got out of the car, I'd certainly be unaware of them doing so, and have no idea what they were talking about, but not TM, no he had super powers.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Had GZ not removed himself from the truck, where he said he was fearful of this 'suspicious' dude, a dude so aggressive, according to Z, he "circled' his vehicle, thus causing an imminent threat -- then we can say with 99.99% certainty, the killing of Mr. Martin would have never occurred.

And had TM not approached GZ and confronted him about why he was following him, there is also a 99.99% certainty that he'd still be alive.

If GZ told the truth and TM attacked him when he went to get his phone, then had TM not attacked him there'd also be a 99.99% certainty that he'd still be alive.

This is the point, both players took actions that lead to TMs death. Just because TM ended up dying doesn't mean you get to ignore his own actions that helped lead to his death.

 

[crimresearch]

You are just making the story fit your preconceptions. GZ followed TM. That was a threatening act. I see plenty of people saying it's OK to respond to a threat with a gun here.

And Sylvia Browne sees plenty of dead people saying things... so what?

 

[RandFan]

Had GZ not removed himself from the truck, where he said he was fearful of this 'suspicious' dude, a dude so aggressive, according to Z, he "circled' his vehicle, thus causing an imminent threat -- then we can say with 99.99% certainty, the killing of Mr. Martin would have never occurred.

Agreed.

 

[Mumbles]

I don't think GZ ever actually followed TM on foot.

I think he started to, but abandoned the idea at the dispatcher's request.

I think GZ just tried to keep TM in sight or see where he went, without ever getting, or intending to get, anywhere near TM.

I think it is TM who wanted to confront GZ, and did so.

But we will see how the case develops and what the evidence shows.

Yes, that makes perfect sense. The best way to confront someone is to run away from them, as Martin did. And the fact that Zimmerman freely stated that he was following Martin is not evidence that Zimmerman followed Martin.

Look, we do have some basic facts. We know that Zimmerman was parked on Twin Trees Lane, and that Martin would have naturally walked past his car, in order to get home. We know that Zimmerman did not describe any crime in progress or being planned. We know that Martin spotted Zimmerman, who was likely staring at him, and fled, and that Zimmerman pursued for at least some time.

All of the above points to Zimmerman as being wildly over-suspicious, to the point of presenting himself as a threat to a random pedestrian. There's no way I can see to look at Zimmerman's own phone call, and not conclude that Zimmerman was the aggressor.

 

[RandFan]

One is that suggestion that it doesn't have to be done, the other is a request to that it not be done. The not 911 operator never told GZ not to follow, merely that there was no need.

If you are afraid and it's not needed then why do it? FTR: I'm not convinced that GZ did follow after that point but I honestly don't know. If GZ did continue to follow TM knowing he was armed and knowing that following was not necessary and being armed, then those facts, IMHO, establish recklessness. YMMV.

One more opinion: If someone from law enforcement tells me that my actions are not needed then I think I can figure out that they would rather that I not do that. Who on earth gives a **** what law enforcement needs and why the hell would they bother telling me?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I think you are totally wrong. George's recorded call gives us a lot of information about where where George was that is inconsistent with George stopping at the dispatchers request. There is also the walkthrough the next morning as relayed by George's father that says he went on the Retrete View Circle before turning back and the location where they ended the altercation which is inconsistent with returning straight back to the truck. There will definitely be more evidence but it will be difficult to take away what we already know.

Do you know what direction the wind was blowing and what effect the buildings and vegitation would have on the wind in the area? Are there any other sounds on the tape that could be caused by the wind and help identify where George was at that time? Where exactly was George's truck parked and how long does it take him to reach Retrete View Circle?

I was asking you to tell me all the information in the call that is inconsistent ? I am not sure why you are now asking me questions about the call ?

 

[Dan O.]

Perhaps I live in a strange world, but getting told I don't have to do something is not the same as being told not to do something.

I would say this is most likely how the operators are trained and unless there is a specific legal requirement for an order it is going to be phrased to remove liability for that action from the police. If the operator said follow him and report what he is doing and something bad happened to George, the police would be liable. If the officer ordered George to return to his truck and the suspect circled around and something bad happened to George, the police would be liable. The instruction: "We don't need you to do that" is the strongest statement they can make.

I love the attributation of super powers to TM through the use of hindsight.

Not only was he totally aware that GZ got out of his truck, some 30-50m behind him and behind a house, but he knew exactly what GZ was saying and that the phone call GZ was making was about him.

Your super powers seem to be failing you at the moment. According to Trayvon's girlfriend, Trayvon initiated contact by asking "why are you following me". We know that George didn't drive his truck into the cut-through so it's a given that George got out of his truck. If you take George's directions literally, George parked his truck at the previous corner just past the mailboxes. If that's the case, Trayvon could not have gotten out of sight and behind the house before George got out of his truck.

Funny thing, if I saw a car going slowly up the street behind me, then it passed me and stopped, and I saw the person was on the phone, I'd assume that they got a phone call and were talking on the phone before pulling over. If I was running and out of sight of them before they even got out of the car, I'd certainly be unaware of them doing so, and have no idea what they were talking about, but not TM, no he had super powers.

Something about George spooked Trayvon to cause him to run (or at least walk fast). We can speculate what that was but you cannot deny it. George caught up to Trayvon in the area behind the condos but did not see him there. This suggests Trayvon was hiding which further suggests that Trayvon knew or suspected he was benign followed. We know Trayvon had confirmed his suspiscion about being followed because he specifically asks George "Why are you following me". It is most likely that Trayvon got this confirmation by hearing the later part of George's conversation with the operator when George himself feared that Trayvon might be close enough to hear him.

And had TM not approached GZ and confronted him about why he was following him, there is also a 99.99% certainty that he'd still be alive.

Where are you pulling this 99.99% figure out of? If Trayvon had remained hidden and George was actively searching for him, the altercation would have simply taken place closer to where Trayvon was hiding. With no actual information to go on for this hypothetical, we could say it's 50/50 for George to search/wait for the police and another 50/50 for the outcome of this altered altercation. That only comes to a 0.75 chance for Trayvon's survival. What other factors are you using to reach 4 9's?

If GZ told the truth and TM attacked him when he went to get his phone, then had TM not attacked him there'd also be a 99.99% certainty that he'd still be alive.

We have a big problem with the truthfulness of George Zimmerman because he also said he was returning to his truck.

This is the point, both players took actions that lead to TMs death. Just because TM ended up dying doesn't mean you get to ignore his own actions that helped lead to his death.

Whe shouldn't ignore TM's actions: Running from trouble, hiding from trouble, talking to trouble. After that his phone is cut off.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

This is the point, both players took actions that lead to TMs death. Just because TM ended up dying doesn't mean you get to ignore his own actions that helped lead to his death.

It does in bizarroland. In bizarroland you get to point out again and again that if GZ had not gotten out of the truck, TM would still be alive. If GZ had not been armed, TM would still be alive. Most importantly, in bizarroland, nothing TM may have done, no choice TM may have made, is relevant to that equation. Even if he beat the living **** out of GZ, what matters in bizarroland is that GZ got out of the truck.

 

[Dancing David]

The US as a society has about the same levels of violence as other urbanized countries. Guns just make it more lethal in some ways.

Levels of domestic violence are equal in most societies, and they only involve guns in extreme cases. The numbers of victims choked to the point of unconsciousness is astounding. The sexual abuse of minors is overwhelming and crosses most societies and countries.

The prevalence of gun crime is unique to the US, the prevalence of violence is not.

 

[Mumbles]

You must really hate walking through town with all those people following you.

Personally, I've only had people deliberately follow me on a few occasions, without giving a reason to do so (such as "you dropped this") - and in every case, they were always violent. My friends basically all have the same stories.

Let's stop pretending that Zimmerman just turned a corner and was coincidentally behind Martin, or that they were walking down the same street, on a bust day, in the daytime. No, he got out of his car and pursued the guy.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Thank you for proving my point.

Either your society is highly violent, which you seem to be saying, leading to people having to protect themselves against all of those violent people, which would be a sad inditement on such a violent crazed society, or it is perceived to be far more violent than it really is. Either way, hideously sad.

Note here that I live in a society where the Police are not armed openly with anything other than batons and pepper spray, even Tasers are rare, though are now carried by some trained officers. Guns are only carried when there is an expectation of being confronted with a weapon during a job. Most citizens feel generally safe with the likelihood of a having a pistol pulled on you is near zero. Having a knife pulled is higher, but still incredibly low. Most murders here are either criminal on criminal, or domestic. The handfull of others throughout the year (and unfortunately, as in your friends case, they tend to be attacks on women) make for huge news stories because they are so rare still.

Here's a basic break down from last year (2011).

In total there were 47 unlawful killings in New Zealand, 13 of which were classified as Manslaughter or less.

Of the others...

11 were attacks from family or people well known to an adult victim, with another 5 cases where the victim was a child.

6 cases were from fights or assualts that occured at parties where alcohol was involved

In 6 cases the cause is unknown, or hasn't been reported

3 cases were the result of drugs or organised crime

2 cases were burglaries, one of which was a business

and only 1 was an unprovoked assualt on a passer by.

Considering that we have over 4 million people in the country, I don't think there is a need to carry a gun here, at all.

You just don't understand us American's at all, do you . Heck, I'm American and I don't understand it, in a way. I envy other (free) societies that don't have a gun culture.

 

[PhantomWolf]

If you are afraid and it's not needed then why do it?

I'm not sure that there is any evidence that GZ was afraid at that point, he certainly didn't seem so in the call.

FTR: I'm not convinced that GZ did follow after that point but I honestly don't know. If GZ did continue to follow TM knowing he was armed and knowing that following was not necessary and being armed, then those facts, IMHO, establish recklessness. YMMV.

For the phone call, I suspect that GZ lost sight of TM very quickly, likely before he was even out of the vehicle. This is one of the issues I have with people stating that GZ "pursued" TM. You have to know where someone is to pursue them. GZ went where he believed TM had gone to see if he could resight him, but with the headstart that TM had, I seriously doubt that GZ really thought he'd actually find him again.

One more opinion: If someone from law enforcement tells me that my actions are not needed then I think I can figure out that they would rather that I not do that. Who on earth gives a **** what law enforcement needs and why the hell would they bother telling me?

My point was more along the lines of people here keep stating that the operator told GZ not to follow as it it is fact, it is however untrue. The operator stated that following wasn't needed. Even if this is some PC way of saying don't do it,the wording is clearing neither a request nor instruction for him to stop, merely that it wasn't required. In the heat of the moment, and not having a visual on TM anyway, I'd suspect that GZ saw no harm in continuing to the back gate to see if he could spot him on the road and give better directions.

I also suspect that the operator said there was no need to follow more out of concern for GZ's health than TM's in case TM was waiting in ambush and attacked.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Let's stop pretending that Zimmerman just turned a corner and was coincidentally behind Martin...No, he got out of his car and pursued the guy.

I've added the below for you to copy and paste into each of your posts:

"My psychic powers say so."

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I would say this is most likely how the operators are trained and unless there is a specific legal requirement for an order it is going to be phrased to remove liability for that action from the police. If the operator said follow him and report what he is doing

Something like "Let me know if he does anything, OK?" or "Just let me know if this guy does anything else." ? Hmmmmm......

and something bad happened to George, the police would be liable. If the officer

Non-emergency operator.

ordered George to return to his truck and the suspect circled around and something bad happened to George, the police would be liable. The instruction: "We don't need you to do that" is the strongest statement they can make.

most likely. maybe.

Your super powers seem to be failing you at the moment. According to Trayvon's girlfriend, Trayvon initiated contact by asking "why are you following me". We know that George didn't drive his truck into the cut-through so it's a given that George got out of his truck. If you take George's directions literally, George parked his truck at the previous corner just past the mailboxes. If that's the case, Trayvon could not have gotten out of sight and behind the house before George got out of his truck.

Why ? Do you know where he was when GZ said 'He's running' ?

Something about George spooked Trayvon to cause him to run (or at least walk fast). We can speculate what that was but you cannot deny it. George caught up to Trayvon in the area behind the condos but did not see him there. This suggests Trayvon was hiding which further suggests that Trayvon knew or suspected he was benign followed. We know Trayvon had confirmed his suspiscion about being followed because he specifically asks George "Why are you following me". It is most likely that Trayvon got this confirmation by hearing the later part of George's conversation with the operator when George himself feared that Trayvon might be close enough to hear him.

So you are taking Crumps word for what TM 'grilfriend' said, and taking that as fact ?

We have a big problem with the truthfulness of George Zimmerman because he also said he was returning to his truck.

And you know he wasn't but Det. Gilbreath doesn't because .... ?

Whe shouldn't ignore TM's actions: Running from trouble, hiding from trouble, talking to trouble. After that his phone is cut off.

I agree with running. You made up hiding. Crump may have made up talking.

 

[RandFan]

I'm not sure that there is any evidence that GZ was afraid at that point, he certainly didn't seem so in the call.

He said he was scared. It is possible that he stopped being scared. But he didn't seem to be scared in the car either.

I also suspect that the operator said there was no need to follow more out of concern for GZ's health than TM's in case TM was waiting in ambush and attacked.

I suspect the operator knew no good would likely come of it and was concerned for GZ and TM. There was no evidence a crime had been committed. Bad things often happen when untrained individuals play cop. If that was the operator's concern then it was prescient.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I would say this is most likely how the operators are trained and unless there is a specific legal requirement for an order it is going to be phrased to remove liability for that action from the police. If the operator said follow him and report what he is doing and something bad happened to George, the police would be liable. If the officer ordered George to return to his truck and the suspect circled around and something bad happened to George, the police would be liable. The instruction: "We don't need you to do that" is the strongest statement they can make.

If operators are trained to say things they don't mean, you can't fault ordinary people for taking them at what they do actually say.

Your super powers seem to be failing you at the moment. According to Trayvon's girlfriend, Trayvon initiated contact by asking "why are you following me". We know that George didn't drive his truck into the cut-through so it's a given that George got out of his truck. If you take George's directions literally, George parked his truck at the previous corner just past the mailboxes. If that's the case, Trayvon could not have gotten out of sight and behind the house before George got out of his truck.

Except that there is no evidence that TM hid, there is evidence that GZ lost him and didn't know where he went because he tells the operator this, unless you want to try for the shot of GZ lying to the operator. TM was fairly atheltic, he could easily have cover 30-50m in the 6 secs it took GZ just to get out of the truck, depending on if he run or sprinted, which we don't know. That is easily enough time and distance to get behind a house.

Something about George spooked Trayvon to cause him to run (or at least walk fast). We can speculate what that was but you cannot deny it.

Without knowing why he decided to run we, well don't know. He might have been spooked, he might just have decided he was being crazy and decided to get home quickly, it might have started raining heavier. We know that a little later on he says he's going to walk faster, but this is after whatever occured at the car happened. Acording to GZ on phone, TM was acting anything but spooked at that point, until he ran.

George caught up to Trayvon in the area behind the condos but did not see him there. This suggests Trayvon was hiding which further suggests that Trayvon knew or suspected he was benign followed.

It doesn't suggest that at all. Originally people here were claiming it meant he got lost, now it's he hid and waited, for nearly four minutes! The most logical explaination is that he ran home, then felt silly and/or angry, and went back to see if he was being followed.

We know Trayvon had confirmed his suspiscion about being followed because he specifically asks George "Why are you following me". It is most likely that Trayvon got this confirmation by hearing the later part of George's conversation with the operator when George himself feared that Trayvon might be close enough to hear him.

Again rubbish, it's far more likely that GZ is near the gate at the back of the complex when the conversation ended. Even if TM was hiding, he couldn't have heard it. There is also a gap of several minutes between the time the conversation with the operator ended, and TM telling the girl he was talking to that GZ was behind him again, this doesn't work in your senario, at all. You have TM hiding and talking to the girl while GZ is within TM's hearing distance, apparently picking his nose for several minutes.

Where are you pulling this 99.99% figure out of? If Trayvon had remained hidden and George was actively searching for him, the altercation would have simply taken place closer to where Trayvon was hiding. With no actual information to go on for this hypothetical, we could say it's 50/50 for George to search/wait for the police and another 50/50 for the outcome of this altered altercation. That only comes to a 0.75 chance for Trayvon's survival. What other factors are you using to reach 4 9's?

The same place Rare Truth pulled his....

We have a big problem with the truthfulness of George Zimmerman because he also said he was returning to his truck.

And we only have speculation against that, that he wasn't. If he was at the gate and started heading back to his truck, then saw TM, who had returned, then he was indeed heading back to his truck. The idea that he was hunting about with a torch looking for TM is totally unfounded speculation by members of this board.

Whe shouldn't ignore TM's actions: Running from trouble, hiding from trouble, talking to trouble. After that his phone is cut off.

Nope, just ignore the things he did, or likely did that reflect badly on him, and make up other actions out of thin air (like him hiding.)