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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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ANTPogo said:
(...)

And Justice Gray agreed:

(...) When account is taken of all the considerations set out in paragraphs 13.140 to 13.161 above, it appears to me that the correct and inevitable inference must be that for the most part the falsification of the historical record was deliberate and that Irving was motivated by a desire to present events in a manner consistent with his own ideological beliefs even if that involved distortion and manipulation of historical evidence.
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Lying.

Nazi.

Hack.
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ANTPogo's hack: "distortion and manipulation of historical evidence"

Wikipedia's hack:

Hack writer is a colloquial and usually pejorative term used to refer to a writer who is paid to write low-quality, rushed articles or books "to order", often with a short deadline. In a fiction-writing context, the term is used to describe writers who are paid to churn out sensational, lower-quality "pulp" fiction such as "true crime" novels or "bodice ripping" paperbacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hack_writer​

Did the "Nazis" paid David Irving to produce books?

The plot continues...
 
TSR said:
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Three English courses, one in Religion and one interdiscipinary.

AND NOT A SINGLE HISTORY COURSE.

So even after creating a straw man of your own choosing, you fail.

Denier "scholarship" in action.
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The results!

I was assigned a video project for my History class. I thought long and hard and decided that I wanted to focus on Elie Wiesel's tragic life in the Holocaust. All of the words on the screen are his along with the words that are spoken throughout this video.
​



Using the Literature of Elie Wiesel
and Selected Poetry to Teach the
Holocaust in the Secondary School
History Classroom
CAROL DANKS

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=95875019​

Night by Elie Wiesel was one of the required reading materials for my history class (The World at War, 1939-1945).

(...)

Anyway, my point is that - if you haven’t read it - you should.

http://shesordinaryandyourespecial....y-elie-wiesel-was-one-of-the-required-reading​
 
You seem to be hellbent on proving TSR's point:
Using the Literature of Elie Wiesel and Selected Poetry to Teach the Holocaust in the Secondary School History Classroom
CAROL DANKS
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On top of which, so what? You've already read, from several people posting in this thread, that no one in this discussion relies on - in fact, has even used - Wiesel. What point are you trying to make, besides your distaste for Wiesel?
 
TSR said:
Were such staff ever not accompanied by armed guards?




Oh, you don't know?





Sorry, that's right -- you don't know because you can't risk actually learning anything about what you are so rabid to deny.
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Why don't you just answer the question?
 
tsig said:
Visit a prison.

:dl:
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You poor carbon based life form! This is why there should be minimum standards of knowledge to participate in discussions with smart people like us. When was the last time you were in prison? Did you see dogs with poison teeth chewing testicles? Did you see babies head's smashed against trees? Were the prisoners given any food? How many of them were shot or clubbed to death by guards while you were there? Do you believe that today's prisons are managed the same way death camps were? The conditions are so similar that if Folsom prison is operating today, Treblinka must've operated as well?
 
SnakeTongue said:
LemmyCaution equate..:

a mediocre and disdained writer [syn: hack]​

...with:

(...) distortion and manipulation of historical evidence. (...)​
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No, I don't, that - distortion and manipulation - was the lying part of "lying Nazi hack." Please try and keep up.
 
Dogzilla said:
You poor carbon based life form! This is why there should be minimum standards of knowledge to participate in discussions with smart people like us. When was the last time you were in prison? Did you see dogs with poison teeth chewing testicles? Did you see babies head's smashed against trees? Were the prisoners given any food? How many of them were shot or clubbed to death by guards while you were there? Do you believe that today's prisons are managed the same way death camps were? The conditions are so similar that if Folsom prison is operating today, Treblinka must've operated as well?
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Are you inferring that only the generally decent food and treatment keeps the current prison population docile? That at any moment they could chose to rise up and leave?

You see to be carefully NOT drawing any conclusion about how you think people "should" behave in conditions of barbarity. Or what success they might have at it. But as a result, you are allowing the nonsensical idea to creep in that ALL prisons operate only by the consent of those imprisoned, and that it is actually impossible to hold people against their wills.

Which is pretty much an insult to everyone, then and today.
 
ANTPogo said:
The "hack" part comes from what other, real historians of the Third Reich think about Irving's body of work.

"Disdained writer" is probably putting it rather mildly.
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Disdained and seen with contempt because
Not one of his books, speeches or articles, not one paragraph, not one sentence in any of them, can be taken on trust as an accurate representation of its historical subject. All of them are completely worthless as history, because Irving cannot be trusted anywhere, in any of them, to give a reliable account of what he is talking or writing about. . . . Irving is essentially an ideologue who uses history for his own political purposes; he is not primarily concerned with discovering and interpreting what happened in the past, he is concerned merely to give a selective and tendentious account of it in order to further his own ideological ends in the present.
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Hack because he promotes a political agenda without regard to accuracy and thus produces books, speeches, and articles that are worthless for historical understanding.
 
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TSR said:
Seems that way if you don't actually look into the matter.

Then you'll find he was either unwilling or incapable, since his link 404's.

But you took a known liar at his word, again -- and it left you with egg on your face, again.

But you're far more intelligent than the res...




Sorry, I couldn't even finish typing that line.
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To be fair, the link could've been valid when he created the page. It looks legit.

I wonder if Team Holocaust is anything like Team Edward or Team Jacob?

Dcdrac said:
No but this looks like the usual drivel twisted,tortured logic you see from the deniers
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"I'm not anti-semitic! You're anti-semitic! you're all anti-semitic!"




ANTPogo said:
Unfortunately for your lame attempt to turn the "antisemitic" accusation around, it was Clayton who actually contrasted the way the Jews acted with the way "normal people" would have acted.

Bluespaceoddity was just asking Clayton to explain himself, using Clayton's own terminology.
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:dig:
 
Dogzilla said:
Do you know that there aren't any Nazi war criminals who admitted to gassing 1.1 million Jews at Auschwitz? No Nazi war criminal was ever charged with gassing 1.1 million Jews at Auschwitz. Nobody has ever been convicted in a court of law or punished in any way for gassing 1.1 million Jews at Auschwitz.

Am I a holocaust denier for saying this?

On the other hand, there is compelling evidence that 4.5 million Poles, Russians, Czechs, French, Belgians, Dutch, American, and other nationalities (but not Jews) were gassed at Auschwitz. There are people who were arrested and prosecuted for supplying the Zyklon B that was used for committing this crime. None of the defendants charged with this crime denied that it occurred. Two men were convicted and executed specifically for supplying the murder weapon that was used for committing this crime. .

If I said that 4.5 million Poles, Russians, Czechs, French, Belgians, Dutch, American, and other nationalities (but not Jews) were not gassed at Auschwitz, would I be a holocaust denier?

If I said that Nazi Germany intended the physically exterminate all the Jews in Europe but that nobody was killed in a gas chamber, am I denying the holocaust?

If I said that Nazi Germany murdered six million Jews but the five million non-Jews that some people say were murdered in the holocaust is a fantasy, would I be a holocaust denier?

Is the evidence of gas chambers the same evidence that proves the Nazi plan to kill every Jew in Europe?

Are you seeing a trend?
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Yes on all counts.
 
Dogzilla said:
Why don't you just answer the question?
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Clayton was responding to someone who had made a statement that had answered the question. They also asked a question he didn't want to answer. He literally quoted the post in question, leaving either deliberate disingenuity or severe bias.


Clayton Moore said:
... The guards and staff couldn't trust the inmates. Period.
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TSR said:
Nor did they -- that's why they went armed.

Who told you they were trusted?
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Clayton Moore said:
Were camp staff personnel armed?
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Example said:
Alex: The sky is blue. Did you kill your wife?
Bob: Is the sky blue?
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He's also been remarkably reluctant to explain the differences between oppressing people in the Holocaust and oppressing people in any other genocide, even ones taking place today. I don't think he's even explained why he has no problem with the Soviet POWs, who were trained soldiers, not rebelling en masse, just the Jews. When it's pointed out there was Jewish resistance, he ignores it because it wasn't all of them. Anything less than a human wave attack made up of thousands of angry Juden is unacceptable.

The answer was stated several times. Clay just ignored this evidence counter to his claim, and moved on to the next "anomaly" he could find. Much like you never, from what I've seen, call him out on his many, many logical and factual errors.
 
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Dogzilla said:
Do you know that there aren't any Nazi war criminals who admitted to gassing 1.1 million Jews at Auschwitz? No Nazi war criminal was ever charged with gassing 1.1 million Jews at Auschwitz. Nobody has ever been convicted in a court of law or punished in any way for gassing 1.1 million Jews at Auschwitz...
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Doggie, you know as well as I do that it took multiple people. At least three. At least.

Jokes aside, Nick already pointed out that you were very wrong.
 
Dogzilla said:
...
I concede that point. The economy would have suffered but it wouldn't have collapsed completely if Jews had been completely removed. But it still begs the question of why keep any Jews around at all when there are plenty of non-Jews who could do the work just as well?
...
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I think you are confusing "begs the question" with "raises the question" here.

It's a small point, but it bothers me how many people use "begs the question" incorrectly.:)
 
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