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Does Islam belong in Germany?

Islamism is a political movment and is not the same as the religion of Islam in the same way that the Christian right is not the same as Christianity both are loosely based on the religions they claim to represent but the reality is their policies are at best distortions of those religions and at worst completlely the opposite of them.
 
Toontown

This conversation appears to be causing you to lose your internal harmony. People of any religion, as long as they obey the law, are entitled to live in Germany or in any other country, and fully to contribute to its life and culture.

Terrible crimes tend to be perpetrated by those who say otherwise, and the history of Germany provides a case in point.

What is "German" is not the worship of Wotan, or Christianity, Judaism or Islam, but civilised tolerance. And that belongs to all other developed societies too.
 
On a humorous side-note countering the dull trolling ... the following scene happened at one of the booths where the Salafists gave out Korans for free (see OP article). The campaign poster features the imperative of the German word for read. :D

99074fa928a994a31.jpg
 
ANTPogo said:
And I can lead you to knowledge, but I can't make you think.



No, you need to learn what DC's point was. Would you like me to explain it to you?



No, there's only one rule: learn about something before you talk about it.

You can start here.
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Right...I can start by paying $120 for nothing, after spending thousands on computers and internet. And I suppose I should toss my library card. That dang library is 5 whole blocks away.

Look. The fact that you don't like my assessment does not mean that you are right and I am ignorant.

My assessment stands. The Prophet was an Islamist. The Koran is an Islamist book. And those who follow The Prophet and the Koran are Islamists.
 
Craig B said:
Toontown

This conversation appears to be causing you to lose your internal harmony. People of any religion, as long as they obey the law, are entitled to live in Germany or in any other country, and fully to contribute to its life and culture.
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Right. That's what Kauder said. And I said I didn't see anything wrong with what he said.

Craig B said:
Terrible crimes tend to be perpetrated by those who say otherwise, and the history of Germany provides a case in point.
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A poor excuse for buttheaded claims that I'm a bigot because I openly oppose some belief systems.

Fortunately, Kauder didn't say otherwise, which will hopefully precluding the necessity of invading Germany again. That does get tiresome.

Craig B said:
What is "German" is not the worship of Wotan, or Christianity, Judaism or Islam, but civilised tolerance. And that belongs to all other developed societies too.
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There is a distinct difference between civilized tolerance of a belief system and incorporating the belief system into the national identity and culture. Not the same at all. No country is obligated to incorporate false belief systems, and it would be wrong for any civilized country to do so. The US constitution, for example, specifically forbids the government incorporating a religious belief system.

What if Newt Gingrich said, 'The racist ideology of the Ku Klux Klan should not be a part of the American identity and culture. However, KKK members who are American citizens do belong, and are entitled to all their constitutional rights.'

Would you object? Would any of these noble nemeses object?

They would probably only object to the part about KKK members' belonging.
 
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Toontown said:
Right...I can start by paying $120 for nothing, after spending thousands on computers and internet.
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Only if you want to shell out for the hardcover. Or you could buy the much cheaper $26.95 paperback edition instead. Or the even cheaper Kindle version, which costs under twelve bucks.

Of course, ignorance is always free.

And I suppose I should toss my library card. That dang library is 5 whole blocks away.
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Since it doesn't appear that you've ever used your card (or set foot in your local library), you might as well.

Look. The fact that you don't like my assessment does not mean that you are right and I am ignorant.
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No, it's because you have no idea what Islamism is or how Islamism differs from Islam, and you refuse to bother learning anything about it.
 
Dcdrac said:
Islamism is a political movment and is not the same as the religion of Islam in the same way that the Christian right is not the same as Christianity both are loosely based on the religions they claim to represent but the reality is their policies are at best distortions of those religions and at worst completlely the opposite of them.
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You seem to be advocating the first definition proposed by the wikileaks link ddt contributed. That link included two different takes on it.

One viewpoint holds that the political aspect of Islamism arises inevitabaly from the nature of the ideology as codified in the Koran.
 
Toontown

No more than in the USA should any religion be incorporated into the state machine. But the practice of all must be tolerated, and equal rights accorded to all their adherents. Such is US law, and such must be German too. Bomb throwing criminals, of any religion, should be subject to the appropriate legal penalties.
 
ANTPogo said:
Only if you want to shell out for the hardcover. Or you could buy the much cheaper $26.95 paperback edition instead. Or the even cheaper Kindle version, which costs under twelve bucks.

Of course, ignorance is always free.



Since it doesn't appear that you've ever used your card (or set foot in your local library), you might as well.



No, it's because you have no idea what Islamism is or how Islamism differs from Islam, and you refuse to bother learning anything about it.
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I see. I must buy books and study hard, because I disagree with the one and only (YOU).

And I must continue to pay and study hard until I come into agreement with (YOU).

Jawohl. I will begin my voluntary re-education right away, mein fuhrer.
 
Craig B said:
Toontown

No more than in the USA should any religion be incorporated into the state machine. But the practice of all must be tolerated, and equal rights accorded to all their adherents. Such is US law, and such must be German too. Bomb throwing criminals, of any religion, should be subject to the appropriate legal penalties.
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So? Did I say otherwise? Who, exactly, are you preaching to?
 
ANTPogo said:
One viewpoint, hmm?

What do other viewpoints say about it, Toontown?
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Don't you like that one? Should I continue to offer up definitions until I blindly stumble upon the one with which (YOU) agree?

Nein, mein fuhrer. This I will not do.
 
So Toon you refuse to substantiate your statements with any knowledge about what you are talking about.
 
Dcdrac said:
So Toon you refuse to substantiate your statements with any knowledge about what you are talking about.
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So, Dddrac, you refuse to substantiate your statement that I refuse to substantiate my statements with any knowledge about what I am talking about.

Before I would even consider responding to your bold gambit, I would first require some evidence from you that you understand what I am talking about.

If you're all hung up on the Islamist definition thing...get over it. There are enough definitions to go around. You have your opinions. I have mine.
 
Toontown

What is it that you are trying to say? That all Muslim Germans should be deprived of their citizenship, like the Jewish Germans in the 1930s? Or that they should be compelled to change their religious affiliation? Or what?
 
Craig B said:
Toontown

What is it that you are trying to say? That all Muslim Germans should be deprived of their citizenship, like the Jewish Germans in the 1930s? Or that they should be compelled to change their religious affiliation? Or what?
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That's another bad habit you people have. You can't even haughtily demand clarification without first building a stack of strawmen and false choices.

Reading comprehension 101: I'm not saying any of that.

How difficult is it to understand that Germans are not compelled to incorporate Islam into the national identity and culture simply because a small minority of citizens practice the bonehead belief system. But that doesn't mean the Muslims are to be immediately rounded up and hauled off to concentration camps.

How difficult is it to understand the example of my kind of thinking I provided - the US constitution - which specifically forbids the government from incorporating any religious belief system.

Which is why I said I don't see anything wrong with Kauder's statement.
 
Toontown said:
That's another bad habit you people have. You can't even haughtily demand clarification without first building a stack of strawmen and false choices.

Reading comprehension 101: I'm not saying any of that.
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OK, we've got what you're not saying. What I asked was: what then is it that you are saying?
 
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Craig B said:
OK, we've got what you're not saying. What I asked was: what then is it that you are saying?
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OK, there's the source of your reading incomprehension, right there. You focused in on one sentence, to the exclusion of everything else, and even managed to misunderstand that.

Probably a function of your ideological conditioning.
 
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