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Acceleration of the falling top blocks.

... My intuition is that as long as the energy needed to snap connections is very much less than the potential energy available, then the FoS makes hardly any difference, as I presume that that energy is mostly included in the inelastic-collision-only dissipation...
It is interesting to see that this energy based approach is aligning with my historic (2007-8) explanations where I relied on the concept of "overwhelming" forces/impacts.

There are only two significant types of failures in the "global collapse" or "progression" stage. viz shear off of the OOS floor joists from perimeter and core columns AND shear off of horizontal beams in the core. And the energy to do that is orders of magnitude overwhelmed by the massive falling mass/momentum.

Hence the progressive and successive acceleration of overwhelmed floor structural materials becomes the limiting factor.

It would have been a different story if the columns had played any significant role in resisting collapse. But they didn't and the fact that they didn't is the key to the mechanism which actually occurred. Three parallel and nearly coincident mechanisms if we need to get pedantic at that level of detail.
 
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Hence the progressive and successive acceleration of overwhelmed floor structural materials becomes the limiting factor.

It would have been a different story if the columns had played any significant role in resisting collapse. But they didn't and the fact that they didn't is the key to the mechanism which actually occurred. Three parallel and nearly coincident mechanisms if we need to get pedantic at that level of detail.

I doubt even that, as I seem to recall that even Bazant's most arrest-friendly limiting case of perfect column alignment predicted overwhelming forces energy. The difference would be measurably different from zero I guess, but still small.

[ETA]This would mean that if there was a terminal velocity observed, as some at the911forum seem to claim, rather than a terminal acceleration (or terminal acceleration = 0), then there would have been an additional and quite mysterious resisting force of (nearly) 1/3 mg up - the opposite of what CD proponents believe who insist that structural connections excerting resisting forces were artificially removed ahead of the collapse front.[/ETA]

And this is as far as I am going to speculate without doing any actual analysis and calculations. I am far out on a limb already.
 
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I doubt even that, as I seem to recall that even Bazant's most arrest-friendly limiting case of perfect column alignment predicted overwhelming forces energy. The difference would be measurably different from zero I guess, but still small....
I get confused as to Bazant's initial starting point for global collapse. IIRC he initially assumed one storey drop then reduced it but still had a drop.

that is where Bazant and I part company. I don't comprehend any initiating scenario which somehow created a clear fall drop. And that puts me in a small minority - maybe a minority of 1. :o BUT the "initiation" was a progressing cascade. Where does that process produce a drop?? However if I press that line I will get dumped on from both sides - Bazantophiles and Bazantophobes. :(

Been there before. ;)
BTW and IIRC that is also where Chandler and Szamboti got into water that was too deep. :boggled:
...[ETA]This would mean that if there was a terminal velocity observed, as some at the911forum seem to claim, rather than a terminal acceleration (or terminal acceleration = 0), then there would have been an additional and quite mysterious resisting force of (nearly) 1/3 mg up - the opposite of what CD proponents believe who insist that structural connections excerting resisting forces were artificially removed ahead of the collapse front.[/ETA]
"They" do seem to get lost between V and A -- plus anything related to free body identification or mechanics. :rolleyes: "They" are allowed to mix factors from two different scenarios. You and I are not allowed. So deal with them separately. ;)
...And this is as far as I am going to speculate without doing any actual analysis and calculations. I am far out on a limb already.
There is one rule there - Saw the limb off outboard of where you are sitting. :)
 
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I get confused as to Bazant's initial starting point for global collapse. IIRC he initially assumed one storey drop then reduced it but still had a drop.

that is where Bazant and I part company. I don't comprehend any initiating scenario which somehow created a clear fall drop. And that puts me in a small minority - maybe a minority of 1. :o BUT the "initiation" was a progressing cascade. Where does that process produce a drop?? However if I press that line I will get dumped on from both sides - Bazantophiles and Bazantophobes. :(

Been there before. ;)
BTW and IIRC that is also where Chandler and Szamboti got into water that was too deep. :boggled:
Forget any (free)fall drop. It doesn't matter much how the top starts moving, all that matters is that it does start moving and attains a downward velocity / momentum sufficient to overcome the "first collision". If that momentum is gained in 0.5 seconds of freefall at g or 1 second of acceleration increasing linearly from 0 to g or 2 seconds of 0.25g or whatever, all that matters is that a minimum momentum arises.

As soon as the moving block starts impacting major components at rest - we typically think "floor slabs", and if this initial momentum suffices, those components will be overwhelmed, and movement will continue at an average of 0 < a < g

So Bazant says "drop"? Maybe he doesn't mean that literally, or maybe he shouldn't.

That doesn't invaldidate the rest of his work.

"They" do seem to get lost between V and A -- plus anything related to free body identification or mechanics. :rolleyes: "They" are allowed to mix factors from two different scenarios. You and I are not allowed. So deal with them separately. ;)
I don't actually know where this idea of a "terminal velocity" originated; it seems that the motion is difficult to observe at least for the lower third of the towers, for that is cloaked in dust plumes. Did they look at ejections from just below the collapse front disturbing the plumes?

There is one rule there - Saw the limb off outboard of where you are sitting. :)
Different solutions are possible
- crawl back towards the trunk
- support the limb
- ...?
 
This thread is about the acceleration of the falling top blocks, not about cascading floor failures. Make up your minds, bedunkers. ;)
 
Ah, is this where the rumor started that I said something
"stopped in its tracks"? Because I will reiterate now that I
do not think this happened.

Nothing stopped. Once stuff started heading downward, it
kept going. Not all of the building was turned into foam at
the exact same moment, but once it turned into foam, it
started heading downward and didn't stop until it ploomped
onto the ground like a balloon filled with baby powder, or
actually like a balloon filled with foam, because the stuff
expanded once it hit the ground and rolled down the street.

Some of the building was aerosolized. After this happened,
the aerosol went up into the sky, not downward. But much
of the building did head in a downward direction AFTER it
had been foamed.

Collisions played no role in the destruction of the WTC.

The gravity collapse model is faulty on the numbers, yes,
as I'm sure you've at least heard me say. But it's also faulty
on the energy, as maybe I haven't emphasized enough.

I'll start another thread about the energy, because it isn't
acceleration.

You're so far away from reality with the fantasy weapon analogy, plus the lack of understanding/failing to apply physics and conservation of momentum. The seismic data verifies collision during each towers collapse, Tracy; You can't escape that fact.
 
This thread is about the acceleration of the falling top blocks, not about cascading floor failures. Make up your minds, bedunkers. ;)

ergo, ergo, ergo.

The big kids have been talking about how the cascading floor failures indeed account most precisely for the acceleration of the falling top blocks.

Do try to keep up!

:rolleyes:
 
Dave, the interesting result is that this limit of 1/3 g is independent of the local spacial distribution of the mass, and of the absolute mass. It's the same if you multiply the mass of each floor slab by 100 or divide it by 100; it's the same if you have 110 floors or 1100 of 1/10 the actual height*, and I dare say it is independent of the physical arrangement if the material into slabs, trusses, girders, columns, dead weight etc.

Now the answer to this question that we are still debating, whether an additional and significant amount of energy (and thus momentum) is dissipated to fracture support or not, will bear on the question if the "factor of safety" has a significant effect on collapse acceleration. My intuition is that as long as the energy needed to snap connections is very much less than the potential energy available, then the FoS makes hardly any difference, as I presume that that energy is mostly included in the inelastic-collision-only dissipation.




* In fact, OWE takes this idea to its infinitesimal limit where the building mass is continual - uniform density - as it is distributed over infinitely many floors of zero height.

That agrees with most of what I've figured out, also. Plus, the impacts are enough to make collapse inevitable over a wide range of stiffness parameters, etc.
 
This thread is about the acceleration of the falling top blocks, not about cascading floor failures. Make up your minds, bedunkers. ;)

An ergo truther-operative credo: Separating the dynamics of physics to throw out an argument that these dynamics are separate. :rolleyes:

It's not a choice of one or the other ergo; The law of physics is the dynamic of cascading floors and falling top blocks. You've been debunked.
 
I think the fact that Dr. Dusty had to copy-paste that definition directly from wiki speaks volumes about her competence in her alleged field of expertise.

That I copied the definition of fetus from wiki means I don't know what a fetus is?
 
You seem to have given this subject some thought. Can you tell me, what began the first downward acceleration? What was the force that initiated the first movement downward?


Over at the911forum, I revived an older thread, which started out with someone's misbegotten hypothesis on something, which in turn caused OneWhiteEye to revisit some other thread where he (?) had derived from theoretical considerations of conversation of momentum (and, implicitly, energy) what the collapse acceleration will be if all collisions are inelastic, and asuming that no energy is dissipated beyond the work done in those inelastic collisions.

The result is, analytically, that acceleration will in the long run converge on 1/3 of g. It will start out faster if the initial mass ("top block") is larger, and then take somewhat longer to get near 1/3 g, but the difference is not large. It turns out that it doesn't matter how high the floors are or what their individual mass is.

I get approximately the same result through discrete iteration with a spreadsheet in which I compute each individual collision of "top block" with next floor below from the 95th (or 80th) down to the ground: Acceleration starts somewhat below 1g and above 2/3 g, and drops to not much above 1/3 g towards the end.



Acceleration of 1/3 of g means directly that only 1/3 of the potential energy is turned and sustained as kinetic energy, and the rest is dissipated in the inelastic collisions, mostly as deformation and fracture, and to a small extent as heat.



We are currently thinking hard about whether these close to 2/3 of available energy that gets converted into "destruction" already takes care of / includes all, most, some or none of the destruction of the structural supports that necessarily must be destroyed for collapse to continue*). My intuition says that most of the energy required to break structural connections is already accounted for in the loss of kinetic energy due to inelastic collision, OWE seems to think otherwise, but I don't know how to model this, and he isn't there yet.

Any energy expended on top of (or temporally after) the inelastic collision to break connections would decrease the collapse acceleration. Again, my hunch is that this is not very significant.

The same is true for all energy (and momentum) that's transferred down the columns and into the ground and thus lost to planet earth. Here, too, my hunch is that this is not very significant.


Now this model that we are talking about seems too simple and unrealistic, but I think it does get us pretty close to true values. The reason is that I think that in the chaos of the collapse front, even though everything is not going smoot and uniform and all collisions have elastic components, it eventually all adds up to being insignificantly different from a total inelastic scenario: As some have said, the perimeter mesh helps to keep most of the material confined to the footprint so there isn't a lot of mass shedding; components that get kicked down elastically undergo further collisions with other floors to give them more chances to dissipate energy and get caught up with the bulk of the collapse front.


Anyway, expect any top-down collapse starting with a sufficient top mass to start above 2/3 g, drop quickly (after a few floors) below 1/2 g and soon converge near 1/3 g.



*) We don't show it in that thread, but we both know (from Bazant's limiting cases) that this amount of energy easily suffices to break enough connections (say: all long truss to column connections). Iirc, Bazant has shown that if the top 15 floors reach a velocity that is equivalent to a free-fall drop of 0.5 meters, then their kinetic energy will overwhelm the next floor worth of connections, and from then on the structure is doomed. (Notice that this scenario does not need to assume any actual free fall at collapse initiation!)
 
Let's say there was enough energy in gravity to snap the connections between the floors and the support columns. Then, under this scenario, what destroyed the support columns?

Dave, the interesting result is that this limit of 1/3 g is independent of the local spacial distribution of the mass, and of the absolute mass. It's the same if you multiply the mass of each floor slab by 100 or divide it by 100; it's the same if you have 110 floors or 1100 of 1/10 the actual height*, and I dare say it is independent of the physical arrangement if the material into slabs, trusses, girders, columns, dead weight etc.

Now the answer to this question that we are still debating, whether an additional and significant amount of energy (and thus momentum) is dissipated to fracture support or not, will bear on the question if the "factor of safety" has a significant effect on collapse acceleration. My intuition is that as long as the energy needed to snap connections is very much less than the potential energy available, then the FoS makes hardly any difference, as I presume that that energy is mostly included in the inelastic-collision-only dissipation.




* In fact, OWE takes this idea to its infinitesimal limit where the building mass is continual - uniform density - as it is distributed over infinitely many floors of zero height.
 
Let's say there was enough energy in gravity to snap the connections between the floors and the support columns. Then, under this scenario, what destroyed the support columns?

The support columns fell last, after the floors surrounding them had collapsed. They are called "spires" for the brief time they tottered, before collapsing themselves (no support).

 
You seem to have given this subject some thought. Can you tell me, what began the first downward acceleration? What was the force that initiated the first movement downward?

Oh that is easy: Gravity.
 
Let's say there was enough energy in gravity to snap the connections between the floors and the support columns. Then, under this scenario, what destroyed the support columns?

Again, that's easy: Gravity again. There was a lot (a huge lot) of excess energy to not just snap the necessary and sufficient connections, but also surplus connections, and crush concrete, bend things, and blow the toilets to smithereens.

Any columns still standing after the momentum-driven rubble went past were stripped of lateral support, became thus too slender, and failed mainly due to Euler buckling. Under gravity again of course.
 
ergo, ergo, ergo.

The big kids have been talking about how the cascading floor failures indeed account most precisely for the acceleration of the falling top blocks.

Do try to keep up!

Ah, my mistake. Could you just remind me what/whose collapse model you're discussing? Thanks.
 
The support columns fell last, after the floors surrounding them had collapsed. They are called "spires" for the brief time they tottered, before collapsing themselves (no support).

Right. And again, where can we read the official version of this collapse model? Where, for example, can engineers find this explanation? Thanks.
 

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