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Does Islam belong in Germany?

Come on, everyone knows that Germany was an idyllic land of tranquil pacifism with no history of violence until Muslims showed up and ruined everything.
 
DC said:
i can post similar videos of neo nazis, anti-fa or many other groups, what is your point?
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German Demos are full of people that party hard? *cue Andrew W. K.*

Toontown's arguments remind me of the laughable "Leitkultur" debate we had a few years ago.
If we are going by your comments so far national identity is determined by elected representatives of the majority. Ok, where do minorities fit in? Because that is the rub: If we are going by that argument Jews in Germany would not be part of the national identity. Which does not need any further comment on how harebrained that would be.
So, what determines who gets to be part of national identity? Does it depend on how recent a group has become part of the current social and cultural life of a nation? I find it rather odd that the second or third largest religious group in Germany should be left out because its spread is more recent. (That depends on whether you take German Christians as one monolithic block or subdivide it into those ultramontes guys and the doornailers.)
If we are going with inane insinuations: the status quo is nothing to preserve just because it is the status quo.
German national identity should reflect both majorities and minorities because the exclusion of either makes no sense and breeds resentment. You can disagree with that if you want, but you better have some arguments and not just "U HAET DA CONSERVATIFS!"
I don't disagree with Kauder because he is an opportunistic bigot, I disagree with Kauder because he seeks to exclude people that have lived and worked in Germany for almost half a century, whose children I live and work with, who are my friends. Because he is making hasty generalizations about them and their families based on the extremistic fringe. So did you. The comparison between most muslims in Germany and the KKK is not even wrong. But thanks for playing.
 
DC said:
i can post similar videos of neo nazis, anti-fa or many other groups, what is your point?
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What is your point? My point is...well, Roseanne Barr said it best:

"I consider myself a pretty good judge of people and that's why I don't like none of 'em."

Just saying. Trading Nazism for Islamism is not the way I would go, in terms of national identity and character. But it's not my country, and really not my problem. Or yours.

I'm just annoyed because an intense thought-crimes investigation was attempted against me because of a few half-serious offhand comments - most of which was removed by the mods and placed in AAH.

And now here comes 3 or 4 more wanting to reinstate the investigation.
 
Childlike Empress said:
"Wild guess" - because for his guru Robert Spencer all Muslims are the same? ;):rolleyes:
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Good find, I'd say a very plausible guess.


Toontown said:
What is your point? My point is...well, Roseanne Barr said it best:

"I consider myself a pretty good judge of people and that's why I don't like none of 'em."

Just saying. Trading Nazism for Islamism is not the way I would go, in terms of national identity and character. But it's not my country, and really not my problem. Or yours.

I'm just annoyed because an intense thought-crimes investigation was attempted against me because of a few half-serious offhand comments - most of which was removed by the mods and placed in AAH.

And now here comes 3 or 4 more wanting to reinstate the investigation.
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I'm really puzzled by your reaction. DC's post was a reaction to Virus, not to you; and now you seemingly willfully set yourself up for indeed another "investigation", to use your own terminology.

Your Islamism is a huge strawman: as has been said several times in this thread, islamists are a very tiny minority among German Muslims. No chance in hell that the Islamists would take over - they're as influential as the Neo-Nazi groups and surely as much on the radar of the BND and the BKA. And as you may be very well aware, the vast majority of German Muslims are of Turkish descent, and that's about the last country associated with Islamism.
 
ddt said:
I'm really puzzled by your reaction. DC's post was a reaction to Virus, not to you; and now you seemingly willfully set yourself up for indeed another "investigation", to use your own terminology.
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I wouldn't try it, if I were you. Unless you enjoy looking silly. You really have no leg to stand on.

ddt said:
Your Islamism is a huge strawman: as has been said several times in this thread, islamists are a very tiny minority among German Muslims.
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So you agree with Kauder then? Islam is not, in fact, an appreciable part of German culture and identity?

Good. Then you'll have no objections to my saying I found nothing wrong with Kauder's statement.

ddt said:
No chance in hell that the Islamists would take over - they're as influential as the Neo-Nazi groups and surely as much on the radar of the BND and the BKA.
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Well good. However, according to Chaos, they are 10% closer to taking over than they were in 1969. And, according to both Moss and Chaos, Islam therefore deserves the chance to become an integral part of German identity and culture. Just as every belief system deserves the chance, I suppose the reasoning would be, by extrapolation - never mind how jacked-up many belief systems are.

But I have seen people resort to the bogus reasoning that religions are special belief systems, deserving of special respect and deference, and deserving of being considered a part of a country's identity and culture if their practitioners are citizens and can form a sizeable crowd...or whatever. I think the whole line of reasoning is bonkers, but it is the memeified Zombie Left line of reasoning, and therefore has adherents.

ddt said:
And as you may be very well aware, the vast majority of German Muslims are of Turkish descent, and that's about the last country associated with Islamism.
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Well, that's great. But your concept of "Islamism" probably differs from mine.
 
Toontown said:
I wouldn't try it, if I were you. Unless you enjoy looking silly. You really have no leg to stand on.

ddt said:
Your Islamism is a huge strawman: as has been said several times in this thread, islamists are a very tiny minority among German Muslims.
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So you agree with Kauder then? Islam is not, in fact, an appreciable part of German culture and identity?
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It's you who's looking silly - or intentionally setting up a strawman, by equivocating Islam with Islamism. The rest of the idiocy in your post is built on that strawman.
 
Toontown said:
You are not authorized to make that determination.
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I just remembered this little gem.

Toontown, I'd very much be interested in hearing your logic as to why you are "authorized" to have an opinion on the subject, but I am not.

Please try not to break my irony meter too badly.
 
Toontown said:
I wouldn't try it, if I were you. Unless you enjoy looking silly. You really have no leg to stand on.



So you agree with Kauder then? Islam is not, in fact, an appreciable part of German culture and identity?

Good. Then you'll have no objections to my saying I found nothing wrong with Kauder's statement.



Well good. However, according to Chaos, they are 10% closer to taking over than they were in 1969. And, according to both Moss and Chaos, Islam therefore deserves the chance to become an integral part of German identity and culture. Just as every belief system deserves the chance, I suppose the reasoning would be, by extrapolation - never mind how jacked-up many belief systems are.

But I have seen people resort to the bogus reasoning that religions are special belief systems, deserving of special respect and deference, and deserving of being considered a part of a country's identity and culture if their practitioners are citizens and can form a sizeable crowd...or whatever. I think the whole line of reasoning is bonkers, but it is the memeified Zombie Left line of reasoning, and therefore has adherents.



Well, that's great. But your concept of "Islamism" probably differs from mine.
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what is your concept of Islamism?
 
Cleon said:
I just remembered this little gem.

Toontown, I'd very much be interested in hearing your logic as to why you are "authorized" to have an opinion on the subject, but I am not.

Please try not to break my irony meter too badly.
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Whatever you do, don't point his contradictions. That's persecution.
 
DC said:
what is your concept of Islamism?
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It means whatever he wants it to mean. No more. No less.

Quit persecuting the poor diddums. It's like the Spanish Inquisition and the Stalinist show trials rolled into one and, yes, I think it wouldn't be hyperbolic to say that Toontown is right now a victim of the Holocaust too.
 
ddt said:
It's you who's looking silly - or intentionally setting up a strawman, by equivocating Islam with Islamism. The rest of the idiocy in your post is built on that strawman.
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Why did you go to the bother of quoting my question, only to avoid answering it?

Question-answering doesn't seem to be among my inquisitors' strong points. Just as well. Shortens the 'conversation'.
 
Originally Posted by Toontown
You are not authorized to make that determination.

Cleon said:
I just remembered this little gem.

Toontown, I'd very much be interested in hearing your logic as to why you are "authorized" to have an opinion on the subject, but I am not.

Please try not to break my irony meter too badly.
Click to expand...

I would expect better reading comprehension from one of your Modific stature.

I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion. I simply pointed out that said opinion would be virtually weightless. Especially when presented without support, as if it were indisputable fact.
 
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angrysoba said:
Whatever you do, don't point his contradictions. That's persecution.
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See post above.

First he'll have to find one, before he can point to it.

I'm sure he can find one, if he tries really hard. I haven't exactly been taking this nonsense seriously, you know.
 
DC said:
what is your concept of Islamism?
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Nevermind. It would probably be a breach of forum etiquette to answer your question frankly. And if I can't answer frankly, there really is no point in answering at all.

From the online dictionary:

2. Islamism - the monotheistic religious system of Muslims founded in Arabia in the 7th century and based on the teachings of Muhammad as laid down in the Koran; "Islam is a complete way of life, not a Sunday religion"; "the term Muhammadanism is offensive to Muslims who believe that Allah, not Muhammad, founded their religion"

ddt seems to be of the convenient opinion that Turkish Muslims are not generally considered to be followers of The Prophet's actual teachings, thus are not considered "Islamists".

Which begs the questions:

Why do they call themselves Muslims then?

and

Why are those Salafists bothering to distribute Korans, if they don't even follow it's teachings?

Politics, perhaps? Politics, while hoping to crouch behind a shield of bogus ethnic immunity?
 
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