• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Does Islam belong in Germany?

Toontown said:
Then by the constitution, Germans may not be discriminated against due to their opinions about any religion. Said opinions need not be positive, and need not be of the persuasion that any religion is a facet of German identity, tradition, or culture.

Thus it is legal and acceptable for a German to express dismay that efforts are under way to expand the following of a benighted, false system of beliefs.
Click to expand...
.
They're ALL a benighted, false system of beliefs.
ALL religions are fictions and fantasies.
Being free -from- all religions is worth striving for.
We almost got there here in the US.
 
I disagree that all religions are equal. Religions are more than just stories about talking snakes and apples and stuff that isn't real. They're systems of values, taboos and principles which are real. And those can be better or worse than each other.
 
Let's just say that when a German Politician talks about a religious group having "no place" in Germany, you can't blame people if they raise their eyebrows given what happened last time German Politicians talked like that.......
 
dudalb said:
Let's just say that when a German Politician talks about a religious group having "no place" in Germany, you can't blame people if they raise their eyebrows given what happened last time German Politicians talked like that.......
Click to expand...

Seriously!

Forget Germany - nothing good has ever come out of deciding that a certain religious group "doesn't belong" anywhere. Nothing good has ever come out of singling out a religion for victimization, prejudice, or discrimination. Period.
 
Last edited:
I Ratant said:
.
They're ALL a benighted, false system of beliefs.
ALL religions are fictions and fantasies.
Being free -from- all religions is worth striving for.
We almost got there here in the US.
Click to expand...

So close, and yet...

I suppose it takes more than one enlightened generation to get there. Trouble is, even when you're advancing into a vast wilderness, the preachers are right behind you, ready to preach a sermon, take up a collection, and set those settlers to building that church.
 
Last edited:
Cleon said:
Seriously!

Forget Germany - nothing good has ever come out of deciding that a certain religious group "doesn't belong" anywhere. Nothing good has ever come out of singling out a religion for victimization, prejudice, or discrimination. Period.
Click to expand...

A meaningless statement, since nothing good has ever come out of deciding that a certain religious group "belongs" somewhere either. Nothing good has ever come out of humanity's sad addiction and slavery to it's contradictory, counterproductive phalanx of religions, period.
 
Tell me, Toontown, who died and made you supreme arbiter of who is or is not allowed to say what belongs to Germany?

Cleon made a point. One could consider it a good or a bad point (I happen to think it´s a good point), but in either case, one should either be able and willing to address that point, or keep one´s mouth shut rather than telling others to do so.
 
Chaos said:
Tell me, Toontown, who died and made you supreme arbiter of who is or is not allowed to say what belongs to Germany?

Cleon made a point. One could consider it a good or a bad point (I happen to think it´s a good point), but in either case, one should either be able and willing to address that point, or keep one´s mouth shut rather than telling others to do so.
Click to expand...

Who died and made Cleon the supreme arbiter of what is or is not a part of German identity and culture?

Who died and made you supreme arbiter of who has or has not addressed an alleged point*, and should therefore shut up, or not, depending on your unspoken criteria as to whether a poster has, in your estimation, addressed an alleged point?



*Cleon made a bald assertion. That is not what is commonly considered a "point".
 
Last edited:
Toontown said:
Who died and made Cleon the supreme arbiter of what is or is not a part of German identity and culture?

Who died and made you supreme arbiter of who has or has not addressed an alleged point*, and should therefore shut up, or not, depending on your unspoken criteria as to whether a poster has, in your estimation, addressed an alleged point?



*Cleon made a bald assertion. That is not what is commonly considered a "point".
Click to expand...

Can I as a German make the same statement as Cleon and you will just accept it then? The reality is that Islam is the religion of a significant number of people in Germany. That makes it part of everyday culture, no matter what a bigot like Kauder thinks about the matter. He is free to disagree but so am I.
To place Kauder somewhat correctly: I'd call him a Newt Gingrich equivalent. He is the guy that gets to tell all the right wing semi non pc stuff that Merkel and "the moderates" within the CDU/CSU think but don't want to be associated with. It usually ends with some excuses and/or retractions because a lot of people disagree with him.
 
Moss said:
Can I as a German make the same statement as Cleon and you will just accept it then?
Click to expand...

No. I won't accept the word of a lone German that Islam is as much a part of German culture and identity as Christianity. It simply isn't true. Islam is a recent import and Muslims make up a tiny minority of German citizens. Very few Germans would consider converting to Islam, and I would frankly question the intellect and/or sanity of any who would do so.

Moss said:
To place Kauder somewhat correctly: I'd call him a Newt Gingrich equivalent. He is the guy that gets to tell all the right wing semi non pc stuff that Merkel and "the moderates" within the CDU/CSU think but don't want to be associated with. It usually ends with some excuses and/or retractions because a lot of people disagree with him.
Click to expand...

Well, who elected those people who are saying all those things with which you disagree so strenuously? Presumably they didn't decend down out of heaven or simply seize power by main force. They must be representing a lot of voters. More than you and Cleon, certainly.

Kauder is no supreme arbiter either, but the only position I've taken on his statement is that I see nothing particularly wrong with it. Certainly nothing to get hung about. He said Islam is not a part of German culture and identity, but German citizens who are Muslims do belong in Germany. All of which seems true enough for government work.

The whole teapot tempest looks like a political power play by a Muslim group, countered by mainstream politicians. Basically, politics as usual, although some attempts have been made in this thread to grant the Muslims a special immunity to the usual political bludgeonings, because they're...well, you know...religious and everything. Can't be picking on the special little ethnic groups, can we, even if they voluntarily join the political fray. Yeah. Right.:rolleyes:


From the article:

"Critics, many from Merkel's traditionally Catholic party, say the campaign is ideological, aimed at recruiting supporters."

"Religion must not be allowed to be misused for ideological claims to power," said Interior Minister Hans-Peter Friedrich.

Can't say I particularly disagree with that either. Needless to say, I'm not a big fan of religion, or the pampering of special little people who feel all special and everything, in general. Especially the ones who feel all special because God is their special friend.
 
Last edited:
Toontown said:
The whole teapot tempest looks like a political power play by a Muslim group, countered by mainstream politicians. Basically, politics as usual,
Click to expand...


That muslim group are Salafists, closely observed by the Verfassungsschutz, the interior intelligence service. They estimate the number of Salafists in Germany at 3-5 thousand. This is about one in thousand muslims in Germany. Kauder is using that controversy as an opportunity to take a general cheap-shot at the muslim community, aimed at the islamophobe potential voters of the Christian Democrats, and Moss described his role accurately. I called him an attack dog. And as i've mentioned before, he's negating a phrase said by the former President Wulff, who is also a Christian Democrat but plays the integrating role.
 
Last edited:
Toontown said:
No. I won't accept the word of a lone German that Islam is as much a part of German culture and identity as Christianity.
Click to expand...

First of all, the count is at two lone Germans now.

Second, Islam as a religion deserves as much of a place in German culture and identity as the people who follow it deserve a place in the country. If you think Islam has no place here, either you think the Muslims themselves have no place here, or you think that they should give up Islam. Such a mindset might be good enough for the US, but not for a country like ours.

It simply isn't true. Islam is a recent import and Muslims make up a tiny minority of German citizens.
Click to expand...

Somewhere between 5% and 10% isn´t all that tiny. It´s vastly bigger than the tiny minority of Jews, for example. Do you think Judaism has no place in Germany, either?

Very few Germans would consider converting to Islam,
Click to expand...

And you know that HOW?

and I would frankly question the intellect and/or sanity of any who would do so.
Click to expand...

Thank you for being so open about your mindset. Now I know what makes you tick.

Well, who elected those people who are saying all those things with which you disagree so strenuously?
Click to expand...

And how do YOU, Mr. Mind Reader Guy, know that they were elected for these positions? For all you know, they ran on an "Americans are poopy heads" platform, and their disdain for Islam is just incidental.

Needless to say, I'm not a big fan of religion, or the pampering of special little people who feel all special and everything, in general. Especially the ones who feel all special because God is their special friend.
Click to expand...

So far, you have only demonstrated that you are no big fan of Islam, and of people who feel that they should be treated like everyone else... but that you ARE a big fan of people who think others should be treated less favorably because they worship a different god, or worship the same god in a different way.
 
Chaos said:
First of all, the count is at two lone Germans now.
Click to expand...

Selection bias. Equally meaningless.

Chaos said:
Second, Islam as a religion deserves as much of a place in German culture and identity as the people who follow it deserve a place in the country.
Click to expand...

I'm sure everybody is well aware of your opinion, as well as the similar opinions of Childlike Empress and Moss.

Again, selection bias. People making common cause with Muslims simply because they dislike "conservatives". Politics. Nothing more.

It would be interesting to see if you self-selecters would also make common cause with the Ku Klux Klan. Your sentiment would apply to the Klan equally as much: Klan members' igorant ideology deserves as much of a place in US culture and identity as the people who follow it deserve a place in the country, due to their being citizens. By your reasoning. Not mine.

Chaos said:
If you think Islam has no place here, either you think the Muslims themselves have no place here, or you think that they should give up Islam. Such a mindset might be good enough for the US, but not for a country like ours.
Click to expand...

False choice fallacy.

I think everyone should give up all their false beliefs and ideologies. So what?

Chaos said:
Somewhere between 5% and 10% isn´t all that tiny. It´s vastly bigger than the tiny minority of Jews, for example. Do you think Judaism has no place in Germany, either?
Click to expand...

Do you people have some kind of fixation on interrogating others to determine what they think, so that you can expose them if their thoughts are deemed impure?

Sure seems that way. Except for Muslims. You don't do that to Muslims.

Chaos said:
And you know that HOW?
Click to expand...

Plain common sense. You just said only 5-10% of people in Germany are Muslims. Common sense suggests the other 90-95% choose not to be Muslims, for seemingly obvious reasons.

Chaos said:
Thank you for being so open about your mindset. Now I know what makes you tick.
Click to expand...

And now you have verified what I already suspected makes you tick.

Chaos said:
And how do YOU, Mr. Mind Reader Guy, know that they were elected for these positions? For all you know, they ran on an "Americans are poopy heads" platform, and their disdain for Islam is just incidental.
Click to expand...

Fine. Have it your way. You and Moss are more qualified to bloviate on the issue than Germany's elected representatives.

Chaos said:
So far, you have only demonstrated that you are no big fan of Islam, and of people who feel that they should be treated like everyone else....
Click to expand...

And you have only demonstrated fallacies and strawmen.

Had to stick that yellow strawman in there, didn't you. The theory being, I suppose, that if I do not reveal sufficient impurity of thought, then it is necessary to mock up some impure thoughts and attribute them to me.

Chaos said:
but that you ARE a big fan of people who think others should be treated less favorably because they worship a different god, or worship the same god in a different way.
Click to expand...

Strawman.

I said nothing at all about how I think people who stupidly worship false gods should be treated.

You need to quit while you're behind.
 
Last edited:
ddt said:
So protests by Muslims can also turn violent. Your point?
Click to expand...


That's the same group of Salafists. A splinter islamophobe party (Pro-NRW) in the state of NRW thinks that the best approach to get more than their usual procent-and-a-half in next weeks election is to make a tour to local mosques where they show Mohammed caricatures directly in front of them. Several hundred counter protestors showed up, among them 100 to 200 Salafists from all over Germany who organized in their internet forums and reacted with violence. A rare occasion where one can say with confidence that of the three parties involved, the police are the sole good guys. :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Childlike Empress said:
That's the same group of Salafists. A splinter islamophobe party (Pro-NRW) in the state of NRW thinks that the best approach to get more than their usual procent-and-a-half in next weeks election is to make a tour to local mosques where they show Mohammed caricatures directly in front of them. Several hundred counter protestors showed up, among them 100 to 200 Salafists from all over Germany who organized in their internet forums and reacted with violence. A rare occasion where one can say with confidence that of the three parties involved, the police are the sole good guys. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Thanks. I see now that the explanation of the youtube film already tells (most of) that. Why didn't Virus read that before posting? :rolleyes:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom