War on Women in the Middle East

[WildCat]

I think you can see my concern with the figures. I think the 90% is grossly exaggerated. I fail to see how any random study can logistically account for 90% of the women in any country. I disagree with the whole concept of sampling in the first place. Especially when politics are thrown into the mix.

So you disagree with all political polls? Industrial quality control, which relies heavily on sampling? All medical studies, which also use sampling to draw conclusions about populations as a whole? Sampling of agriculture products for bacteria contamination?

Like I said, you don't appear to have any understanding of it at all.

 

[truethat]

You can say that but you're wrong. I do agree with some level of sampling. I believe for example that if they sampled a village in Egypt and extrapolated those numbers to measure the number of women in that village that may have had it done and it came out to 90% then it would make sense to me. But to use that number across the board makes no sense.


This practice is largely done in the southern villages. And in those areas I would accept the numbers at 90% but not countrywide.

The numbers in Alexandria and Cairo were at 80.5% in the late 70s and early 80s. It's illegal. All evidence shows that the numbers are steadily dropping. So how is it possible to have 80%? And now it's 90%? Again it's ILLEGAL so where are they having it done?

It might make more sense to you to understand that while I would accept the sampling studies, I have yet to see one posted here with the study limitations. WHY?

Because most Western women who throw these figures around are not using the actual studies, they are using "blogging" of those numbers and not actually looking at the total research.

The actual study does not say that 90% of Egyptian women have had this done. It doesn't say anything close to that. But that doesn't stop Western women from continuing to claim it does.



Here is something posted earlier.

Results

The total number of females interviewed was 38 816. The prevalence of FGC among schoolgirls was 50.3%. The prevalence of FGC was 46.2% in government urban schools, 9.2% in private urban schools and 61.7% in rural schools. Educational levels of mother and father were negatively associated with FGC (P < 0.001). The mean age of the time of FGC was 10.1 ± 2.3 years.

Now if any of you can please explain to me how this study matches up to the claim that 90% of the women in Egypt have had this done I'm listening.

In fact women who attended private schools only reported an incidence of 9.2% The highest number on here is 61.7%. So our range is from less than 10% to just more than 60%. How in the heck do you get 90% out of these figures?

Since you know how sampling is done, please explain it to us all. I would very much appreciate it.

http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/86/4/07-042093/en/index.html

There were marked differences in the prevalence of FGC between the governorates. In Upper Egypt governorates, the prevalence was high in Luxor city (85.5%) while in Assuit and Bani Suif rates were 75.5% and 73.1% respectively. In Lower Egypt governorates, the prevalence rates of FGC were 49.8% and 73.9% in Dakahlyia and Sharkia. The lowest rates of FGC were seen in Port Said, Demiatta and North Sinai with prevalence rates of 17.9%, 21.5% and 25.3% respectively.

Please explain how these areas of Egypt can have sampling rates of 18-25% if the rate of FGM is 90% in Egyptian women. I'm still not understanding how you work that out.

These numbers back up what I have been saying and they are from your own sources.

http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/86/4/07-042093/en/index.html

 

[Morrigan]

I disagree with the whole concept of sampling in the first place.

I do agree with some level of sampling.

 

[truethat]

I personally don't agree with the whole concept of sampling but I can understand how it will be useful in some ways. However I disagree with the level of study they have done being used to make a statement about 90% of the women in a country.

For example 10% of Egypt are Coptic Christians. So according to this study every single woman who is not a Christian has had this procedure done.

It's clear by your comments that you don't understand what I'm saying and have nothing to contribute to the conversation. But thanks for giving me the opportunity to make that clear. Even though I carefully spelled out the distinction in my post, I do understand that for some it might be a struggle to understand it. Hope this helps.


More information:

http://www.intact-network.net/intact/cp/files/1290936607_Criminalizing FGM… Why.pdf


Again you see the numbers:

Prevalence of FGM in Egypt
The Egyptian Demographic Health Survey (2005) issued by the Ministry of Health
and Population, states that 96% approximately of married women in the age group
(15-49 years) went through FGM. Whereas its prevalence rate among those in the age
group (15-17 years) is 80%.
A recent study carried out by the Ministry of Health and Population in 2005 on
school girls (age group 10-18 years) showed that the prevalence rate is 50.3%. This
rate varies according to the school location; for example in urban schools the rates
Criminalizing FGM … Why?
In June 2008, The Egyptian Parliament passed the Child law no. 12 of 1996
amended by law 126 of 2008 that was submitted by the National Council
for Childhood. The amendments included an article that criminalizes FGM,
and furthermore the Parliament incorporated this article in the criminal
code (article 242 bis).
The article (242 bis) states that:
“Without prejudice to any greater penalty prescribed by another law,
shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than three months and not
exceeding two years, or a fine of not less than one thousand pounds, and
not exceeding five thousand pounds, any one who caused the injury which
is punishable by Articles 241, 242 of the Penal Code, through performing
female genital mutilation.”2 Criminalizing FGM … Why?
were 4% compared to 62% in rural areas, whereas in private urban schools rates
dropped to 9.2%

These numbers don't match. 96% of the women in Egypt had this done is based on sampling studies in which some areas show that less than 25% have had it done, and in some areas only 9% of school girls have had it done?

Why this huge gap?


Let's follow the source:

Here is a study from 2009.

http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PNADQ891.pdf

EGYPT
VIOLENCE AGAINST
WOMEN STUDY
LITERATURE REVIEW OF VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN
April 2009

Here are the Limitations since no one will admit it.

And look what it says:

2.2. Limitations
The body of research on violence against women is enormous. And, although this
literature review includes a wide range of source materials, the following limitations
should be noted:

• No analysis of research quality. This review was designed to identify a wide variety of studies on VAW, and it includes research of varying quality. The research has not been analyzed for reliability or methodological rigor. Due to the limited amount of reliable data in Egypt on many VAW topics, some sources were included that already have been subjects of criticism within the research
community.

The study?

According to a government study earlier this year, 97 percent of 14,779 Egyptian women polled had been circumcised…Eighty percent of those circumcised said they were pleased with the results.

I do not believe that interviewing 14,000 women is an accurate sampling of 40,000,000 women. If anyone could explain to me how it makes sense to them, I'm listening.


Here's another study and the limitations

http://www.usaid.gov/locations/middle_east/documents/Egypt_Health_and_Population_Legacy_Review.pdf

The Study?

EGYPT HEALTH AND
POPULATION LEGACY REVIEW
VOLUME 1

LIMITATIONS
Given the size and complexity of USAID‘s support for Egypt‘s health and population programs, the team had to establish parameters for the Legacy Review. Many broader development activities that probably had health impacts could not be explicitly covered. They include a multibillion-dollar investment in water and sanitation infrastructure projects, in both urban and rural areas; a public and private sector commodity import program that included health equipment for clinics and hospitals; PL480 proceeds programmed as local currency to support government ministries, including the MOHP; and broad grants to nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) that often engage in health activities. To foster manageability and reduce complexity, the team restricted most of its analysis to programs managed primarily by the Health, Nutrition and Population office of USAID/Egypt.

IOW as I said earlier, they are only interviewing women who have come to use the NGOs and their Aid Offices, IOW desperate and poor women.


Another Study

National Efforts toward FGM-free Villages in Egypt:
The Evidence of Impact
Ghada Barsoum
Nadia Rifaat
Omaima El-Gibaly
Nihal Elwan
Natalie Forcier
Population Council, West Asia and North Africa Office
Working Paper 22 2011.

The Limitations

The Quantitative Component
3
The quantitative component comprised a survey of a random sample of individuals in 18 villages
in six governorates of Upper Egypt (6 control sites and 12 intervention sites). A total of 3,150 individuals were interviewed: 2,100 from the intervention sites and 1,050 from the control sites. Only households with daughters aged 7–13 and at least one young adult aged 16–24 were selected for participation in the survey. The sample population included five subgroups: adult women, adult men, males aged 16–24, females aged 16–24, and girls aged 10–15. At the time of data collection, the legal age for marriage for women was 16 years. For this reason, we chose this age as a cut-off point. Data were collected in December 2006, at the midterm point of the intervention.Five questionnaires were developed, one for each subgroup. This research instrument was designed to collect data concerning a number of social variables, including demographic and socioeconomic data, circumcision status, attitudes toward FGM, exposure to new information, selfefficacy in conveying health messages against FGM, information-seeking behavior, intention to circumcise daughters, openness in discussing FGM, religious beliefs surrounding the practice, gender roles, and reasons for the continuation of the practice.

IOW they went to villages that actively practice FGM to do their research. How this represents all of Egypt is beyond me. It is well known that Upper Egypt has many backwards cultures and groups and as I've always stated, the likelihood of it being there doesn't surprise me at 90%. It's part of their culture. Also not all of the 3,000 interviewed were women.


Found this

There is absolutely NO WAY that 91% of Egyptian women have experienced this mutilation. This is complete nonsense.

Why would the Huffington post print such rubbish?

BTW I am Egyptian, and female circumcision is viewed as a mutilation by most Egyptians as well. It is normally only practiced by the most backwards and uncivilized Bedouin tribes.

To make the outrageous claim that 91% (effectively all muslim women in Egypt) have experienced it, is completely absurd!

In the comments here

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/evelyn-leopold/female-circumcism----90-p_b_822283.html


And this is exactly the reaction of my friends.

 

[Mycroft]

For example 10% of Egypt are Coptic Christians. So according to this study every single woman who is not a Christian has had this procedure done.

Is it know that Coptic Christians don't perform female genital cutting? I honestly have no idea not having seen any evidence one way or another.

As for the rest, I hope to have the time to go through your links later, but the excerpted portions do indeed suggest that much more research needs to be done before specific percentages are arrived at.

 

[truethat]

It's not practiced in Christianity, however many Christians are also part of cultural villages that practice it for cultural reasons. The number one reason that it is practiced is for marriage, not religion. So it's not tied specifically to religion. That's why there needs to be more of a distinction in the demographics.

The reaction of the woman in the Huffington Post comments reflects the reaction of my friends from all different economic backgrounds, but not the very very poor.

Example, my ex husband was raised in Alexandria Egypt, some areas in Alexandria are very poor. My ex used to refer to some people from Alexandria as "farmers" which would be very poor villagers. Whenever I've viewed the video clips of people interacting with women discussing FGM you can tell from their accents that they are "farmers" and not "urban" people. The level of poverty drops to rates that are difficult to comprehend in Western culture. You will have very very poor people who live in shacks with no running water etc. In those groups the culture is more about the "village" atmosphere. Women marry younger than 16 in these places. Etc.

To use studies based on women from that level of poverty to make statements about the larger groups of women is bizarre to say the least.

Also just a note, in case people don't know, Upper Egypt refers to the South, Lower Egypt refers to the North. So the northern governorates are very very very different culturally than the south. Using one to represent the other is completely wrong.

It would be like doing a study in West Virginia and using those numbers to discuss women in New York City.