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The root cause of Africa's problems?

I refuse to accept a culture that can't do better than a tyrant ruling over poor, illiterate and angry people as equal to my own. Wouldn't even need an anthropological study to tell me that.
Your culture pumps huge sums of money into those countries to ensure that their leaders remain corrupt and amicable to our ecconomic will.

I refuse to accept the premise that a culture which uses its wealth to keep another culture impoverished is inately superior.
 
Your culture pumps huge sums of money into those countries to ensure that their leaders remain corrupt and amicable to our ecconomic will.

I refuse to accept the premise that a culture which uses its wealth to keep another culture impoverished is inately superior.

It's a good thing it's not true then.
 
I look forward to this proof that the West is keeping Nigeria poor and not things like the stupendous amount of corruption, the unfree economy and Islamic extremism.
 
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It's true, it isn't about firepower--but it isn't about culture, either.
We--and by that I mean Babylon/Greece/Etruria/Rome/England/America/"Western Civilization"--aren't running the show because Plato could whup Lao Tzu's ass in a debate. We're running the show because wheat and oats are better for you and easier to cultivate than millet, maize or taro. No matter how pretty your codices are, if the best pack animals you have are alpacas, mounted cavalry is going to blow your mind and destroy your civilization over a weekend. Vast, rolling prairies aren't much good if you've never seen a cow--and the cow is never going to live up to its full potential if you're lactose intolerant and grow mostly rice. The culture that's come to dominate the world did so because, whether by accident of geography, equitable trade or just killing the poor bastard who had something first, it got all the best stuff and learned all the right tricks.
Fighting on even terms across cultures is impossible, Virus, so your argument is moot--even if everyone has flintlock muskets, the more advanced society will have a logistical advantage over the other. Rome steamrolled Europe because they A) started out in lush, rolling Italian countryside on the banks of a big-ass river, and B) adopted all the most useful elements from their defeated foes. We steamrolled the First Nations because we already had the tools to exploit resources they didn't even know existed, and then combine them with our own stuff to even greater effect--even when the natives got their hands on our guns, we had bigger armies, trained them better, and supported them with an industrial infrastructure. We just have unfair advantages all around, and the only way to meaningfully catch up is to assimilate--which is exactly what our enemies are trying to avoid.
ETA: And regarding Nigeria, I'm not well informed on the particulars of the case, but I'd wager the problem isn't really active oppression as much as the fact that, like in most problem regions in the modern age, we basically grabbed a dude out of the jungle, did horrible things to him while ranting about civilization and heathenry, and when that didn't work, we handed him a Kalashnikov, gave him AIDS, and put him right back where we'd left him and expected everything to be hunky dory.
 
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Great post man. Ever heard of paragraphs?

Ha. We gave them AIDS. What are you, Louis Farrakhan?
 
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We're running the show because wheat and oats are better for you and easier to cultivate than millet, maize or taro.

Wheat is one of the more difficult crops to cultivate and neither it nor oats are all that good for you. Why do you think white (wheat-based) bread was a food of the rich until 1900s or so?

Corn, on the other hand, is easier to cultivate and has notably better hectare yield. The best food crop are potatoes. Why do you think Europeans transplanted American crops on European soil anyway? People didn't like them at all at first.

No matter how pretty your codices are, if the best pack animals you have are alpacas, mounted cavalry is going to blow your mind and destroy your civilization over a weekend.

Yes, which is why the single-digit numbers of Spanish cavalrymen did so much damage to five-digit Aztec and Inca armies. The fact they used steel weapons and armor, had guns and carried diseases the natives weren't exposed to had little to do with it, right? Ludicrous. Also notice that the Chinese and many other civilizations had horses.

Vast, rolling prairies aren't much good if you've never seen a cow--and the cow is never going to live up to its full potential if you're lactose intolerant and grow mostly rice. The culture that's come to dominate the world did so because, whether by accident of geography, equitable trade or just killing the poor bastard who had something first, it got all the best stuff and learned all the right tricks.

Which explains perfectly why this same culture was one of the most backwards places in the world 600 years ago, right? It also explain why it was able to rise so quickly once it adopted foreign crops and importance of agriculture waned. Oh wait it doesn't :boggled::boggled:

Rome steamrolled Europe because they A) started out in lush, rolling Italian countryside on the banks of a big-ass river, and B) adopted all the most useful elements from their defeated foes.

Gauls started out in lush, rolling French countryside, with an added bonus of lush, rolling Spanish and British countrysides, and were still all but wiped out by Rome, a city of mud-bricks they once burned to the ground.

Rome rose because of B). A) was important, but Rome was anything but unique in this regard.

We steamrolled the First Nations because we already had the tools to exploit resources they didn't even know existed, and then combine them with our own stuff to even greater effect--even when the natives got their hands on our guns, we had bigger armies, trained them better, and supported them with an industrial infrastructure. We just have unfair advantages all around, and the only way to meaningfully catch up is to assimilate--which is exactly what our enemies are trying to avoid.

China had gunpowder 600 years before Europe and outclassed Europe in just about all of those categories ... until 1800 or so. Please explain how come they're only now catching up, without totally negating everything you said.

As for size of armies, Incas at Cuzco (1536) had somewhere between 100-200 thousand men. The first time a European nation fielded that many men was during the French revolution, almost 300 years later. A very large percentage of European armies were poorly trained levies, a logical consequence and an important reason for adoption of guns. Aztecs (and many others), on the other hand, had a warrior-based society.

McHrozni
 
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It's getting rather silly how people deny the importance of culture and blame it on colonialism and other pseudo-reasons. Observing the last few decades of development in North Korea and South Korea should tell you something.

Rome steamrolled Europe because...

Except that they didn't. Large chunks of Europe were never controlled by the Romans, and they did lose when trying to expand north. The Roman Empire was a Mediterreranean empire rather than a European empire.
 
I look forward to this proof that the West is keeping Nigeria poor and not things like the stupendous amount of corruption, the unfree economy and Islamic extremism.
Most of the corruption centers aroind strongmen taking payments from foreign corporations who want the peasants kept in check and no environmental regulations or bothersome labor laws.

Can you guess who has enough money to make sure that these conditions are met?
 
Most of the corruption centers aroind strongmen taking payments from foreign corporations who want the peasants kept in check and no environmental regulations or bothersome labor laws.

Can you guess who has enough money to make sure that these conditions are met?

What a pessimistic worldview you have. People can only get better off by making someone else worse off. How do you manage to get up in the morning?
 
Most of the corruption centers aroind strongmen taking payments from foreign corporations who want the peasants kept in check and no environmental regulations or bothersome labor laws.

Can you guess who has enough money to make sure that these conditions are met?

Restating the claim with different words isn't proof.
 
Look! Paragraphs!

Wheat is one of the more difficult crops to cultivate and neither it nor oats are all that good for you. Why do you think white (wheat-based) bread was a food of the rich until 1900s or so?

Corn, on the other hand, is easier to cultivate and has notably better hectare yield. The best food crop are potatoes. Why do you think Europeans transplanted American crops on European soil anyway? People didn't like them at all at first.

Maize, as cultivated in South America, was almost inedible without vast amounts of processing--native women spent so much time mashing the stuff that it permanently deformed their skeletons. In fact, if you ate that heirloom corn without processing it, you got pellagra. Wheat, on the other hand, requires relatively little processing--grind it, mix it with water, and you have nutritious dough that won't make you go insane and crap yourself inside out. That's if you had enough to eat at all--the soil was awful, and it was tough enough even living there, let alone getting around to inventing writing. Add that to the crappy choice of pack animals, and the fact that the only really good meat available was guinea pig, and the outcome would have been the same even if you gave those resources to Flavian Rome.

Yes, which is why the single-digit numbers of Spanish cavalrymen did so much damage to five-digit Aztec and Inca armies. The fact they used steel weapons and armor, had guns and carried diseases the natives weren't exposed to had little to do with it, right? Ludicrous. Also notice that the Chinese and many other civilizations had horses.

It was one of the reasons. The first encounters between these guys read like Crysis 2--the only reason they even managed to put up a fight was how few people the Spanish sent.

Which explains perfectly why this same culture was one of the most backwards places in the world 600 years ago, right? It also explain why it was able to rise so quickly once it adopted foreign crops and importance of agriculture waned. Oh wait it doesn't :boggled::boggled:

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, to be honest. I'm talking about two cultures--the First Nations, who had immense resources but no tools to harvest them, and the Chinese, who had cows, horses, AND chickens, but just didn't have the natural resources or chemical adaptation to use them the way we eventually did. I apologize if I was vague.

Yes, the Chinese were quite sophisticated, and even respected by their counterparts on the other side of the continent--but they simply couldn't compete with the multiple transcontinental empires of Europe. They didn't have the resources or the infrastructure--heck, right into the 20th century, whole parts of China were organized legally and literally into hamlets, where people farmed rice with oxen and plows. And now that they've started using our technology, they're one of the most rapidly expanding economies on Earth.

Gauls started out in lush, rolling French countryside, with an added bonus of lush, rolling Spanish and British countrysides, and were still all but wiped out by Rome, a city of mud-bricks they once burned to the ground.

Rome rose because of B). A) was important, but Rome was anything but unique in this regard.

The Gauls and the Celts didn't have the infrastructure to train professional soldiers--mercenary armies may not be the greatest national policy decision from a long-term, integrity-of-the-state perspective, but whatever your views on the primacy of the praetorium or the military-industrial complex, a career soldier fighting in a neo-Marian testudo formation is going to whup any given force of similar size composed of half-naked irregulars. The Gauls were fighting on a level that Rome hadn't bothered with for centuries.

And no, Rome was not unique--in any respect. Any successful imperial power adopts the best tricks from the cultures it defeats--and I have no doubt the Veiites or the Etruscans would have done the same if they'd come out on top. But they didn't, in part because of A. Rome had the same stuff they did, plus a strategic placement that made it a trade hub, plus (possibly, depending on how much you believe Livy) a brief period where the city was a major religious hub and considered more or less sacrosanct.

China had gunpowder 600 years before Europe and outclassed Europe in just about all of those categories ... until 1800 or so. Please explain how come they're only now catching up, without totally negating everything you said.

In fairness, it was a very close race. But this is, seriously, a very good point, and I can't say I have a sure answer. If I had to make a guess, I would probably say for the same reason that Romans lost out to the Goths, and the Byzantines lost out to the Seljuks--they were simply newer and more vigorous, with a momentum that the older empire simply didn't have anymore. Rome completely outclassed every other European civilization for hundreds of years, too--and that, as Humes so helpfully pointed out, neither let them expand beyond the Rhine nor survive the geopolitical ********* that inspired every oh-no-the-monsters-were-just-running-from-SUPER-monsters plot twist ever.

And speaking of China... this is an example of what Sarge is talking about. You know what the English did to them, right? They deliberately went out of their way to get them addicted to Opium, for the express purpose of crippling the nation for their own economic ends--and when they tried to clean up, they went to war with them.

As for size of armies, Incas at Cuzco (1536) had somewhere between 100-200 thousand men. The first time a European nation fielded that many men was during the French revolution, almost 300 years later. A very large percentage of European armies were poorly trained levies, a logical consequence and an important reason for adoption of guns. Aztecs (and many others), on the other hand, had a warrior-based society.

The Gauls had a numerical advantage and a martial culture, too--and Caesar didn't have guns.
Actually, the whole idea of a numerical advantage is something of an illusion--when you consider the number of people working back home to support Rome, even in a rough province like Transalpine Gaul, the barbarians were badly outnumbered. Remember, the Legions had that magic word: Infrastructure. They set out well-supplied, fully trained, and ready to commit themselves completely to the task of kicking serious fundamentum--whereas the Gauls often had their entire society packed into a wagon train not far from the rear lines.
 
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Maize, as cultivated in South America, was almost inedible without vast amounts of processing--native women spent so much time mashing the stuff that it permanently deformed their skeletons. In fact, if you ate that heirloom corn without processing it, you got pellagra. Wheat, on the other hand, requires relatively little processing--grind it, mix it with water, and you have nutritious dough that won't make you go insane and crap yourself inside out. That's if you had enough to eat at all--the soil was awful, and it was tough enough even living there, let alone getting around to inventing writing. Add that to the crappy choice of pack animals, and the fact that the only really good meat available was guinea pig, and the outcome would have been the same even if you gave those resources to Flavian Rome.

You aren't very good at reading comprehension, are you.

It was one of the reasons. The first encounters between these guys read like Crysis 2--the only reason they even managed to put up a fight was how few people the Spanish sent.

One of the reasons, yes. I reckon it was about as important as that the Spanish were somewhat bigger.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, to be honest. I'm talking about two cultures--the First Nations, who had immense resources but no tools to harvest them, and the Chinese, who had cows, horses, AND chickens, but just didn't have the natural resources or chemical adaptation to use them the way we eventually did. I apologize if I was vague.

Please list the natural resources and chemical adaptations they lacked. Thus far you've mentioned pack animals they did have and ... what else exactly?

Yes, the Chinese were quite sophisticated, and even respected by their counterparts on the other side of the continent--but they simply couldn't compete with the multiple transcontinental empires of Europe. They didn't have the resources or the infrastructure--heck, right into the 20th century, whole parts of China were organized legally and literally into hamlets, where people farmed rice with oxen and plows. And now that they've started using our technology, they're one of the most rapidly expanding economies on Earth.

That was actually quite comparable to Europe into 16th and 17th centuries. Their infrastructure and organization both was actually superior for a thousand years or so. If your logic were sound (note: this is evidence it isn't) China either wouldn't obtain this advantage at all, or would remain way ahead of Europe throughout history. Since neither is true, one must conclude that your postulate is wrong.

The Gauls and the Celts didn't have the infrastructure to train professional soldiers

Neither did the Romans, until they built it. This may be a bit of a shock to you, but infrastructure isn't a natural resource. Plus the Romans actually defeated the Gauls in Spain and North Italy with a citizen militia, not a professional standing army.

Notice also that once Rome conquered Gaul, it did build up the infrastructure, and turned the province into one of the richest areas of the Empire. It's quite certain that geography had very little (read: absolutely nothing) to do with Gallic defeat against Rome.

mercenary armies may not be the greatest national policy decision from a long-term, integrity-of-the-state perspective, but whatever your views on the primacy of the praetorium or the military-industrial complex, a career soldier fighting in a neo-Marian testudo formation is going to whup any given force of similar size composed of half-naked irregulars. The Gauls were fighting on a level that Rome hadn't bothered with for centuries.

Testudo formation is only good when you're pelted with missiles, it is a fairly good way of human sacrifice if you fight in it in melee. Roman Marian tactics originated in their militia army from a few centuries earlier.

However poor your historical knowledge is however, yes, the Gauls were fighting in a way Rome (and others) rendered obsolete centuries earlier. Unless you'll now claim that the way you fight is determined by your pack animals or crops or something you mine out of the ground or drink in the water or some other such nonsense, you just proved my point.

But they didn't, in part because of A.

Let me get this straight. You're claiming that Etruscans didn't take the place Rome eventually did, because Rome started out in lush Italian countryside?

Rome had the same stuff they did, plus a strategic placement that made it a trade hub, plus (possibly, depending on how much you believe Livy) a brief period where the city was a major religious hub and considered more or less sacrosanct.

That's also true for the city for the past 1,600 years or so, but it never could repeat that success. Funny, eh? Did the Tiber river run dry?

In fairness, it was a very close race. But this is, seriously, a very good point, and I can't say I have a sure answer. If I had to make a guess, I would probably say for the same reason that Romans lost out to the Goths, and the Byzantines lost out to the Seljuks--they were simply newer and more vigorous, with a momentum that the older empire simply didn't have anymore.

Rome lost out to Goths? In reality it was a combination of tribes, from Huns, Goths, Vandals, Allemagne, Saxons, plus Sassanid empire, and others, that took down the Western Roman empire, following 80 years of major unrest and a series of brutal civil wars between East and West portions of the Empire, against a backdrop of a major religious conversion. Saying "the Romans lost out to Goths" is just dumb.
You can say something similar for Byzantines, had the Bulgars not threatened Constantinople twice a week or so, their empire would stand a much better chance of repelling the invasions.

The Gauls had a numerical advantage and a martial culture, too--and Caesar didn't have guns.

Yup. And unless you're going to claim Caesars' advantage was plucked from the naturally occurring bushes (or whatever), it's you that is wrong and me right.

Actually, the whole idea of a numerical advantage is something of an illusion--when you consider the number of people working back home to support Rome, even in a rough province like Transalpine Gaul, the barbarians were badly outnumbered. Remember, the Legions had that magic word: Infrastructure. They set out well-supplied, fully trained, and ready to commit themselves completely to the task of kicking serious fundamentum--whereas the Gauls often had their entire society packed into a wagon train not far from the rear lines.

Yes yes yes, same old story. Tell me, did the Romans mine the infrastructure out of the ground, or was I right all along?

McHrozni
 
Difference between North and South Korea. Difference Between East and West Germany. Difference between Communist China and Hong Kong. Difference between Rodesia under the British and Zimbabwe.

Pretty obvious that pack animals and soil has little to do with it.
 
Rome lost out to Goths? In reality it was a combination of tribes, from Huns, Goths, Vandals, Allemagne, Saxons, plus Sassanid empire, and others, that took down the Western Roman empire, following 80 years of major unrest and a series of brutal civil wars between East and West portions of the Empire, against a backdrop of a major religious conversion. Saying "the Romans lost out to Goths" is just dumb.

No, it's just fast. I didn't want to wave my history-peen around too much, so I summed up the whole mess by stating the number one factor--the massive Greuthungi and Tervingi migrations. It's the central drama of the time, and every aspect of it--what the Goths did when they reached Roman territory, how the Romans reacted to it, the way that the two powers would interact, and ultimately what the Goths were fleeing from in the first place--impacted Roman in huge and totally negative ways. Yes, I know all about the other enemies besetting Rome at the time--I even have a droll little line I trot out sometimes about the Sassanids inventing the Ottoman after the battle of Edessa. But because I wanted to avoid writing another big paragraph this late at night, I picked the number one source of Rome's problems and left it at that.

Yup. And unless you're going to claim Caesars' advantage was plucked from the naturally occurring bushes (or whatever), it's you that is wrong and me right.

I think maybe we're going at this under differing definitions of "culture." To me, this means your values, your belief system, your aesthetic sense--things like military tactics are just technologies, tricks and techniques that it's possible, in fact normal, to acquire from others, whereas your culture is part of your essential character. If we go with your definition, then yes, I have to concede the point--most of the advantages that made the difference, not just in Rome's case, but in all the cases we've discussed, were manufacturing techniques and military doctrines. In other words, things you define as aspects of their culture.

Difference between North and South Korea. Difference Between East and West Germany. Difference between Communist China and Hong Kong. Difference between Rodesia under the British and Zimbabwe.

Pretty obvious that pack animals and soil has little to do with it.

In a word, isolation. In the early game, yes, natural resources were the name of the game--but what I think you fail to grasp is that the game has changed. The ones who get left in the dust in the modern era are the ones who are left out of the marketplace of ideas--usually by silly autocrats who think they're so special that talking to foreigners would just give them white devil cooties, but sometimes due to geographic remoteness or an unwillingness on the part of other nations to engage with them.
That's another part of the African problem--now that we aren't actively ruling colonies there, nobody's really interested in the place. They first got screwed by nature, then by other more fortunate powers, and now we're just unwilling to do much beyond drop aid packages and let them screw each other. So, pretty much where they were before we turned up--only now everyone has assault rifles and HIV.
 
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You said that the West gave Africa AIDS. Would you like to expand on that?
 
N
I think maybe we're going at this under differing definitions of "culture." To me, this means your values, your belief system, your aesthetic sense--things like military tactics are just technologies, tricks and techniques that it's possible, in fact normal, to acquire from others, whereas your culture is part of your essential character. If we go with your definition, then yes, I have to concede the point--most of the advantages that made the difference, not just in Rome's case, but in all the cases we've discussed, were manufacturing techniques and military doctrines. In other words, things you define as aspects of their culture.

A vital part of the Roman essential character was to adopt foreign tactics, tricks, methods, gods ... all to gain the maximum possible advantage. This was far less pronounced than in any competing culture at the time.

In a word, isolation.

Which is not a part of an essential character?

In the early game, yes, natural resources were the name of the game--but what I think you fail to grasp is that the game has changed.

When did it change?

McHrozni
 
I assume you have no objections to honor killings, genital mutilations, blood feuds and the like. Certainly you are not one of those bigots who prefer some cultural traits over others, are you?

You know what assuming does eh?
 

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