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Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

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There are two and half minutes between the end of GZ's call and the very first 911 call about the yelling/fighting of GZ and TM. I don't think there has ever been any information available on how quickly that first caller dialed 911, and I don't think we have clarity on when in the altercation the yells for help started, so there are some unknown variables but I think there are least 90 seconds of mystery time GZ has to account for.

I'm unclear on the specifics of GZ's movements at that time. One possibility is that GZ has been lying about what happened and he thought TM had hidden nearby and was searching for TM. Another possibility is that GZ is basically telling the truth and maybe walked further east to see what the address was on the other side of the cut through and then unexpectedly came across TM on his westward walk back.

The police had GZ do a detailed reenactment of what had happened and the publics never seem it. Hopefully GZ's full statement and that reenactment will clarify things.


Plus dont forget that Martin was a known thug and juvenile delinquent kicked out of school for the third time at the time of his attack on Zimmerman. He just didnt realize the man was armed and he got a cap popped into him...
Zimmerman was screaming for help...he was blood covered...he took the appropriate action....end of story.
 
There are two and half minutes between the end of GZ's call and the very first 911 call about the yelling/fighting of GZ and TM. I don't think there has ever been any information available on how quickly that first caller dialed 911, and I don't think we have clarity on when in the altercation the yells for help started, so there are some unknown variables but I think there are least 90 seconds of mystery time GZ has to account for.

I'm unclear on the specifics of GZ's movements at that time. One possibility is that GZ has been lying about what happened and he thought TM had hidden nearby and was searching for TM. Another possibility is that GZ is basically telling the truth and maybe walked further east to see what the address was on the other side of the cut through and then unexpectedly came across TM on his westward walk back.

The police had GZ do a detailed reenactment of what had happened and the publics never seem it. Hopefully GZ's full statement and that reenactment will clarify things.

The high lighted bit baffles me.... GZ supposedly is the neighborhood watch captain. I'd kind of expect him to at least be familiar with his neighborhood to such an extent that he knows the layout and the street names.
 
You might want to consider the pictures of Trayvon with gold teeth were a far more accurate depiction of his visage contemporaneous to his death than those of the 12 year old kid that were making the rounds for so long. They still are, for that matter. You actually think posting a picture of TM wearing his grill is racist? Was the individual who took the picture racist, too? Is TM a racist if he took the picture himself? What if DeeDee took it, was she a racist for taking it? If a white friend took the picture, is he or she a racist?

Oh, I'm not a Libertarian or a Tea Party goer, and you forgot to answer my question about the two houses.

The funny part about the pictures of Martin with gold fronts, is that he looks pretty young in those pictures. Somehow, we're supposed to believe that the photo of him as a kid that the media passed along is proof of a conspiracy, but the picture of him as a kid with gold fronts is proof that he's a vicious killer. And never mind that the most popular photo of Martin was the more recent black and white photo of him in a hoodie. Just like evidence that he listened to rap music supposedly makes him a violent thug, despite the fact that rap has been a popular style of music since before Martin was born.

Sorry, if all you have is a years-old photo of Martin with some cheap jewelry (and gold fronts are notoriously cheap) giving the finger to a webcam, then you've got nothing.

ETA: I am amused at Zimmerman's defenders, though. Wearing gold fronts in a webcam photo on twitter? This makes you a thug (if you're black, at least). Rushing out of your car to tail a random pedestrian at night? No, that's totally innocent, and not at all threatening.
 
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My *guess* is that Zimmerman said some things that cast doubt on his truthfulness (we've seen some things on our own, like at his bond hearing regarding the money in his bank account). I think they plan to argue that Zimmerman wasn't in fear for his life because Zimmerman is a liar. And he lied about facts in his story, and therefore the jury should discount his story and consider that he killed Martin for no good reason or because he was mad.

My theory is that he was mad that Trayvon got the better of him in a fight and lost his cool. In my scenario, murder 2 seems like the right charge. I don't believe Zimmerman's version of events at all.

I think you are right that the prosecution's case will be based on trying to discredit Zimmerman. However, without any hard evidence, and with a witness testifying that Martin was on top of Zimmerman just before the shot was fired, and with powder burns on Martin's hoodie indicating that the shot was fired at very close range, I don't see how there isn't at least reasonable doubt. Not really believing Zimmerman is not the same as being sure beyond a reasonable doubt that he killed Martin despite not even feeling seriously threatened (since if he unreasonably but genuinely felt threatened, that isn't second degree murder).

I suppose it depends on the particulars of any inconsistency the prosecution can point to, but I just don't see a murder conviction happening unless Zimmerman has an epic meltdown on the stand.
 
The funny part about the pictures of Martin with gold fronts, is that he looks pretty young in those pictures. Somehow, we're supposed to believe that the photo of him as a kid that the media passed along is proof of a conspiracy, but the picture of him as a kid with gold fronts is proof that he's a vicious killer.

As much as you want to whistle past this particular graveyard, there's no rational way to argue that the media acted anything near responsibly in coverage of this story.

When the media began coverage of this story, Zimmerman was painted as white. I agree that the police reports described Zimmerman as a white male, but they continued with this narrative long after Zimmerman's ethnicity became apparent. Worse even, Zimmerman's ethnicity had no real bearing on the actual events, but the media as whole introduced it as one. They chose this narrative and continued it even after it became very apparent that it was in error. The template was set.

The fact that most began my interest in this case was the photographic depection of Martin. His apparent age and physical depection led me to believe that there could be no reasonable cause for justification for a grown man to shoot an unarmed preteen - which was how the photos depicted Martin. Once again, the template for the media was a white guy shot an unarmed black preteen. Of course, we now know that particualr facet of this media template was first in error (the Martin family only released the younger pictures) but that wasn't harmless error. The apparent physical disparity goes to the heart of the case. They should have never ran those misleading pictures and if they decided to, they should have been heavily captioned and explained in the article itself.

The media presupposed police misconduct in this case. One can argue that the police acted without due diligence but again, they lewft out any other explanation for police actions. It was not until the SPD cited the statutory limitation against arrest theat they even deemed it worth mentioning. They did not mention until much later that Zimmerman volunteered statements, that he was in police custody, that the gun was seized as evidence, etc... Instead, they chose to inflame the white man shooting a yound black kid while the police turned a blind eye.

They misrepresented the injuries to Zimmerman, they chose to hide the claim that Zimmerman was the one pleading for help, etc....

There has been three employees of NBC fired for three seperate instances of editing recordings of Zimmerman's call to police. In each instance, they cut out intervening comments and placed Zimmerman's claims of suspicious behavior next to a description of Martin's apparent ethnicity.

For my own part, I have been very reticent to cast aspersions on Martin's conduct prior to the night of the shooting, even after every little wart from Zimmerman has been recited ad naseum here. You cannot, in good faith, contend that Zimmerman's past is relevant to his propensity to overreact that night and pretend that Martin's prior conduct is off-limits. It's one way or another.
 
I think you are right that the prosecution's case will be based on trying to discredit Zimmerman. However, without any hard evidence, and with a witness testifying that Martin was on top of Zimmerman just before the shot was fired, and with powder burns on Martin's hoodie indicating that the shot was fired at very close range, I don't see how there isn't at least reasonable doubt.

The head wounds are reasonable doubt. The prosecution will create the narrative where Martin was somehow justified in inflicting those wounds. Since the charge is Murder 2, they can't really claim that Zimmerman over-reacted to the assault - that's manslaughter. They have to prove that Zimmerman acted in a manner that demonstrated "ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent."

That's the problem with the probable cause affidavit. Throughout its argumentative and unattributed narrative, it does nothing to present even a prima facie claim to support that element.
 
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The head wounds are reasonable doubt. The prosecution will create the narrative where Martin was somehow justified in inflicting those wounds. Since the charge is Murder 2, they can't really claim that Zimmerman over-reacted to the assault - that's manslaughter. They have to prove that Zimmerman acted in a manner that demonstrated "ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent."

That's the problem with the probable cause affidavit. Throughout its argumentative and unattributed narrative, it does nothing to present even a prima facie claim to support that element.

I agree. It isn't enough to cast doubt on Zimmerman's credibility unless the prosecution can present a credible narrative in which Zimmerman kills Martin despite having no reason to fear serious injury or death. That will be very difficult. For a murder conviction, the jury would have to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was in so little danger when he fired that even an unreasonable but sincere over-estimate of the threat cannot reasonably explain the decision to use deadly force. A credible case could probably be made for manslaughter, but I don't see even a remote chance of a murder conviction.
 
I agree. It isn't enough to cast doubt on Zimmerman's credibility unless the prosecution can present a credible narrative in which Zimmerman kills Martin despite having no reason to fear serious injury or death. That will be very difficult.

One problem that comes to mind in that regard is an inadvertant result of the media's rush to judgement. Cable news programs were more than happy to put on whatever witnesses that would be inclined to present a favorable narrative for the state. Presumably, many of these had already given a statement to police weeks before and will have to testify at trial at some future date. SPD has already called Cutcher out on giving one statement to police and then spinning her tale in quite a differnet manner on AC360. In the same program, the anonymous eyewitness gave testimony that contradicted itself, finally admitting that he was speculating about some parts due to darkness.
 
The high lighted bit baffles me.... GZ supposedly is the neighborhood watch captain. I'd kind of expect him to at least be familiar with his neighborhood to such an extent that he knows the layout and the street names.

He should have the addresses memorized as well ?

Do you find this to be an indication that GZ was lying to the police because he actually knew the address, therefor had no reason to check ?

Does this also mean that as watch captain he knew all the people in the neighborhood, and was able to determine TM was a stranger, therefor suspicious ?
 
How is the clock set and maintained on that security system? What steps were taken to verify the time? I ask because I've been following another case where the police misadjusted the error on a CCTV camera and came to the conclusion that the suspect had called them after they were already on the scene. It cannot be blankety assumed that a given clock has the correct time.

Man ain't that the truth!

You would think that my schools district would make all the buildings set their clocks to the network time on our intranet, but the building vary by often up to five minutes. (Not that network time and work stations isn't a whole bunch of fun as well)
 
The high lighted bit baffles me.... GZ supposedly is the neighborhood watch captain. I'd kind of expect him to at least be familiar with his neighborhood to such an extent that he knows the layout and the street names.
He wasn't on the street, he was on the sidewalk cut-through.
 
Simple. Martin never circled Zimmerman's truck. If Z later said it happened, he's lying. If he never said that, the reporter is misreporting.

Here to help.

I think that this will be important in the trial:

IF GZ made a series of different statements at different times about this; it will possibly figure prominently in the prosecutions case.

We have a number of sources it appears for this statement, IF the statement was changed or recanted that will not go well for GZ. IF the statement was consistent by him, than it is not a detriment.
 
The funny part about the pictures of Martin with gold fronts, is that he looks pretty young in those pictures. Somehow, we're supposed to believe that the photo of him as a kid that the media passed along is proof of a conspiracy, but the picture of him as a kid with gold fronts is proof that he's a vicious killer.


And as far as 'representing' goes grills don't make you no banger. Local gangs use more interesting means, for a while it was rolling up the left pant leg or shaving notches in eyebrows. Hand and neck tattoos are common as well.
 
A police officer's sworn affidavit is considered evidence in a court of law. That you may disagree is irrelevant.

What was that ? The sounds of the goalposts going by? That I may disagree is completely relevant - this is an Internet forum discussion , not a court of law. When did this particular discussion become about the legal aspects ?

And exactly how much skepticism are you looking for? On average, how often do you think it's reasonable to give the statements of a police officer and a criminal equal credence?

Since we have this legal principle of innocent until proven guilty, shouldn't you talk about the word of the officer and the accused ? And as I said earlier, it depends on particular circumstances. Would you like to make a blanket statement that we should always accept a police officers word over a non-police officers word ? If not, why ?

And speaking of skepticism... where's the skepticism regarding the officer at Martin's school?
Again, why should a criminal's word be given equal weight to that of a police officer?

Yes, like gas passing criminals, those dishonest bastards :rolleyes:
http://www.herald-dispatch.com/news/briefs/x1488613584/Man-arrested-for-battery-after-passing-gas

The police should always be given the benefit of the doubt ...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...a-charges-against-reed-dropped_n_1331401.html

You also weren't there when Martin was supposedly caught with the screwdriver and the jewelry. You seem pretty confident about what happened in that situation.

Yes, I feel confident he stole it or was holding it for someone. As I stated numerous times. The jewelry exists and police have it. There are no claims that I am aware of that he didn't actually have that stuff in his possession at the time he was caught on videotape vandalizing property. Resulting in his third suspension, which his parents blatantly lied about.

Your alternative that you feel better describes the scenario is ? He found the items and was on his way to return them ?

And I'm not claiming you made those assertions. I'm claiming you made those suggestions.

Great.

Then these should be easy questions to answer:

Do you believe Martin was a thief and/or burglar? Yes or no.
Why should this be easy to answer ? How did you determine that ? Maybe. It's completely possible he was holding for a friend. But YES I think that was stolen jewelry and a burglary tool he had.
You ?

Do you believe Zimmerman was aware that the man he assaulted was a police officer, and therefore lied about it on his police academy application? Yes or no.
Again, maybe.
 
There are two and half minutes between the end of GZ's call and the very first 911 call about the yelling/fighting of GZ and TM. I don't think there has ever been any information available on how quickly that first caller dialed 911, and I don't think we have clarity on when in the altercation the yells for help started, so there are some unknown variables but I think there are least 90 seconds of mystery time GZ has to account for.

I'm unclear on the specifics of GZ's movements at that time. One possibility is that GZ has been lying about what happened and he thought TM had hidden nearby and was searching for TM. Another possibility is that GZ is basically telling the truth and maybe walked further east to see what the address was on the other side of the cut through and then unexpectedly came across TM on his westward walk back.


If all we had to go on was the word of GZ, there would be no way to contradict it and we would be forced to believe him. However, we have evidence beyond what GZ says and I believe it is incompatible with GZ's statement that he was returning to his truck. I don't understand though why GZ would lie about this part. Even if he was standing in the commons shouting "come out come out wherever you are" for those 90 seconds, that doesn't lead to his guilt. But lying about it destroys his credibility and his credibility is all he has to say the shooting itself was self defense.


The police had GZ do a detailed reenactment of what had happened and the publics never seen it. Hopefully GZ's full statement and that reenactment will clarify things.


I'm sure we'll see this in the trial unless George's attorney moves to suppress it.
 
He should have the addresses memorized as well ?
Yes

Do you find this to be an indication that GZ was lying to the police because he actually knew the address, therefor had no reason to check ?
No

Does this also mean that as watch captain he knew all the people in the neighborhood, and was able to determine TM was a stranger, therefor suspicious ?
No, since he's clearly unaware of all the streets and cut-through's, I sincerely doubt that he knew everyone in the community. That said, I don't think that is necessarily a requirement for determining suspicious behaviour.
 
Details Regarding the George Zimmerman Defense Fund

What Happened to the Money Already Raised?

The week of April 23, we disclosed that the PayPal account Mr. Zimmerman had opened before his arrest collected approximately $204,000. That account has been closed, and approximately $150,000 of that money is being transferred to the new independently administered trust account. Approximately 3.5% of the money raised was consumed by PayPal fees. Of the balance $5,000 went to bond, a little more than $1,000 was put into telephone and commissary accounts at the jail. Much of the rest was used to address the considerable expense of closing existing financial obligations, attending to his security and secured transportation and setting up new, secure living quarters where he can safely await trial. Roughly a third of the balance remains liquid and in Mr. Zimmerman’s possession for living expenses for the next few months. So far, none of the funds have been applied to legal expenses.

The new account has been set up at http://www.gzlegalcase.com/index.php/defense-fund .
 
Of course Crump is just speculating. He wasn't there. He can take what the girlfriend told him and offer a theory, but that in no way should be treated as factual. And if his theory is incorrect, and you want to call that "intentionally dishonest", you go right ahead. I don't see how it matters in the slightest.
Honest people can appreciate the difference between factually inferred speculation and totally made up speculation. There is a huge difference between Crump speculating that what the girlfriend told him was accurate and Crump making up conversation details the girlfriend didn't mention at all.

Crump's actions matter because many people, including you, believed what he was saying without questioning it. How did you know that TM was just minding his own business walking back from the store? Do you remember your previous posts on the matter? Here a couple to refresh your memory:

So that fact that before the altercation, Martin was minding his own business while walking home from the store and Zimmerman was following him around with a gun means nothing?

When determining the validity of Zimmerman's self-defense claim, we disregard his reckless and irresponsible actions that set the whole thing in motion, and just treat him like he was also minding his own business?

You know, at some point while we're all engaging in these mental gymnastics to figure out what Martin might have done to warrant being shot to death, Occam's Razor has to come into play.

Zimmerman is the one with a violent history.

Zimmerman was the one with the gun.

Zimmerman was the one who pursued Martin, who at the time was guilty of the crime of minding his own business while walking home from the store.
In the end, Martin ended up dead.

Now, there certainly exists the possibility that while Zimmerman was innocently following Martin around with a gun, Martin decided viciously attack him for no reason at all before going home to enjoy his Skittles and iced tea.
But for some nagging reason, that version of events doesn't quite wash for me.

It's about determining what happened, not making George Zimmerman a liar.

Your argumentation today is blatantly disregarding your previous statements in this thread. Back to the present:

And when you have actual legal testimony from these witnesses, you go right ahead and scrutinize what they have to say. Until then, you're just going off the media-filtered versions of their unofficial statements.
What the hell do you think you were doing in this thread before I started posting in it?

I didn't start posting in this thread till April and was inspired to do so by things like you comparing people who disagreed with you to 9/11 Truthers. Remember this post of yours:

*shakes head*

The degree of evidence denial on this issue is staggering, and something I wouldn't have expected to see outside of a 9/11 conspiracy theory website.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8164098&postcount=4469

Note that post above is a few hours before my very first post in this thread. Your argumentation is prone to massive hypocrisy and there is a clear pattern of you labeling disagreement with your position as CT. How do you know you are not the one who has been acting CT?

No, actually what will make the world a better place and most likely crack this case wide open is if we can just figure out what took Trayvon Martin so long to get home from the store.

Clearly, that's the key to this whole thing, and possibly to greater truths about humanity.

Keep up the good work. :thumbsup:
What might make the world a better place is helping to promote critical thinking and encouraging people to examine their own prejudices. This forum can actually do that. You now seem threatened by that possibility. While in the grand scheme of things what is said here matters little something about this case originally seemed important to you and I wonder if you explain what that is. Didn't the issues of justice and prejudice matter to you when you first started posting on this topic?

Originally you were actually interested in "determining what happened" and you were so offended by people who disagreed with your interpretation of the evidence you compared them to truthers. Now you say it's pointless to scrutinize witness statements and you say "of course" Crump has been speculating with "no facts". You've backpedaled all the way to horizon but don't even seem to realize it.
 
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This entire thing about trying to prove that GZ is a "liar" because at some point in his life he lied is beyond hilarious. Based on that standard EVERY single person participating in this thread is a liar (heck one poster in particular making the assertion against GZ seems to like to lie in almost every post). What's relevant is if GZ has a history of lying, or has lied before under oath.
 
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