Feminism and Gender

[A Laughing Baby]

JREF, it's time we had a talk about feminism. We all know there's been plenty of discussion of it in other threads, but often as a tangent to the issue in the topic. I don't want to have an enormous OP because I'd like to just let the discussion grow organically, but I would like to lay out a few ground rules.

READ THESE BECAUSE THEY ARE REALLY IMPORTANT

1) This is not a safe space. It's extremely likely that there will be posters who strongly agree or disagree with feminism in concept, so please bear in mind that this is an emotional topic (for women and often for men), and post accordingly.

2) Yes, we understand that you just read some great articles on Men's Rights and want to drop knowledge on everyone. Bear in mind that many posters on JREF are familiar with the arguments and concepts of MRA and will likely not be instant converts. The same goes for any radical feminists (we may not have any of those, not sure). We are intelligent adults, please try to be not condescending or sanctimonious (this is difficult for good old ALB at times!!!).

3) There are a lot of topics in this field, so feel free to let the conversation wander. I just want us to start talking about it in one consolidated place so that I don't click on a thread about, I don't know, a spree killer or something and get a conversation about feminism that I wish I'd known had been going on!

Feel free to talk about anything you want right off the bat. I personally am interested in conversations about the gender binary, income inequality, rape culture, and just general patriarchy topics, but this thread is certainly not limited to that.

Finally, as an introduction to the topic, I'd recommend the following blogs:

http://www.feministe.us/blog/ -- news and writings
http://echidneofthesnakes.blogspot.com/ --science-based refutation of various gender and sex claims

 

[Tricky]

To me feminism means nothing more than assuring that females receive respect, opportunity and compensation equal to that which men get. It doesn't mean we have to treat them as if they were men or that we can never share a dirty joke in any environment or context.

 

[bookitty]

Whoa. This isn't something I expected to see this morning. I totally agree with 1 & 2 and shall do my best to keep 3 in mind.

Other than that, I'm too burnt out from the rape threads to add anything at the moment.

 

[truethat]

My beef personally with feminists is well known. I think they tend to treat women as perpetual victims and men as perpetual perpetrators. Most feminists I don't respect don't have healthy relationships with men in their lives. Ex. they are divorced and bitter or unmarried. And they want to blame men for all the problems in the world.

The feminists I do like and respect are women that have healthy relationships with men and especially their fathers and sons. They support men and women as striving towards understanding and tend to pull more away from the binary markers and look at men and women as people and include gender queer under that umbrella of humanity as well as many other different gender ideas.


The first type of feminist is always about assigning blame.

The second type of feminist is always about solving problems.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

To me feminism means nothing more than assuring that females receive respect, opportunity and compensation equal to that which men get. It doesn't mean we have to treat them as if they were men or that we can never share a dirty joke in any environment or context.

Well, in a nutshell, that's what feminism is. It's primary focus is equality in all aspects of life (social, economic, etc.) for all people with no consideration for gender. There are certainly appropriate venues for inappropriate jokes (ha!), but one thing to always consider is that you, Tricky, moderator, are a man, and therefore are in a different set of circumstances than a woman. I'm going to use the P word: you have male privilege (as do I), and it's hard to look past that. It's jarring, even, when it gets pointed out to you.

I crack my knuckles a lot, in the style of pushing down on top of my hand. My wife pointed out to me that when we were first dating, it made her think I was going to hit her, since I would do it while we were talking. I would never dream of harming my wife, but I realize now what it would look like, due to obvious cultural factors.

Also, one final thing: consider the implications of you assuming that feminists want to be treated like men, rather than feminists wanting women and men to be treated equally!

 

[Mycroft]

I crack my knuckles a lot, in the style of pushing down on top of my hand. My wife pointed out to me that when we were first dating, it made her think I was going to hit her, since I would do it while we were talking. I would never dream of harming my wife, but I realize now what it would look like, due to obvious cultural factors.

What?!

I don't know of any obvious cultural factors that would make a person think that. I'd want to know what happened to your wife before she met you that makes her that fearful of abuse.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Feminism, at its best, is an important mode of thought that identifies harmful gender stereotypes and seeks to empower individuals to overcome the limitations imposed by gender classism in our culture.

Feminism, at its worst, is an excuse to encourage hatred and fear of men. It can create new gender stereotypes that constrain us in new ways, and can act as a "women's interest" group - often at the expense of equality for men and women both.

Apologists for the latter will never successfully propagate the former.

 

[truethat]

What?!

I don't know of any obvious cultural factors that would make a person think that. I'd want to know what happened to your wife before she met you that makes her that fearful of abuse.

That's exactly right and the kind of demonizing of men that I don't like. Men are not culturally violent. If a woman has that kind of reaction to a man cracking his knuckles it's got to do with her experiences, not cultural indicators.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I'm going to use the P word: you have male privilege (as do I), and it's hard to look past that. It's jarring, even, when it gets pointed out to you.

I think that "female privilege" also exists. Interestingly enough, in both cases, I think privilege is primarily defined by what we don't have.

Generally, "male privilege" is the absence of certain emotional and cultural burdens placed on women by society -- the chastity burden, the physical vulnerability meme (including rape paranoia), body image, and a number of others. The privilege that males experience is not having to think about these things, and not having their actions judged based on these things. For example, a man can remove clothing without a general cultural concern about losing the esteem of his peers due to perceived sluttiness or perceived unattractiveness; a woman cannot.

"Female privilege" is the opposite, the absence of certain emotional and cultural burdens placed on men by society. This includes the violence burden, the masculinity meme, and others. The privilege that females experience is not having to think about these things, and not having their actions judged based on these things. For example a woman can break down crying without a general cultural concern about losing the esteem of her peers due to perceived weakness or irrationality; a man cannot.

Both of these exist because men and women are raised with different expectations. Not necessarily "more" or "less" expectations (although depending on the culture, there may very well be more or less in certain areas), but different ones. Any member of the culture unwilling to acknowledge the perceived cultural expectations of other classes, or the difficulties in stepping outside those expectations, needs to check her or his privilege.

 

[COLONEL]

The only thing I know about feminism, is when I was stationed at Ft. Eustis in 1981, I met two women going to the transportation school that claimed to be femenist. Turns out they were Lesbians, so I have always thought feminest was just a polite word for lesbian.

 

[Pup]

I'm going to use the P word: you have male privilege (as do I), and it's hard to look past that. It's jarring, even, when it gets pointed out to you.

I crack my knuckles a lot, in the style of pushing down on top of my hand. My wife pointed out to me that when we were first dating, it made her think...

I read that far, and thought it was going to end: "...how many annoying behaviors men can get away with in public, like farting, belching, scratching, and cracking their knuckles, that women aren't supposed to do."

Did not expect where it was going.

 

[Tiktaalik]

I'm a liberal, progressive, environmentalist, feminist, atheist, federal law enforcement officer. And you thought we were mythical!

 

[Belz...]

To me feminism means nothing more than assuring that females receive respect, opportunity and compensation equal to that which men get. It doesn't mean we have to treat them as if they were men or that we can never share a dirty joke in any environment or context.

Same here. I feel that feminism has gone beyond equality and into more-for-women-period.

 

[bookitty]

To me feminism means nothing more than assuring that females receive respect, opportunity and compensation equal to that which men get. It doesn't mean we have to treat them as if they were men or that we can never share a dirty joke in any environment or context.

I agree completely. I would also add physical autonomy under "respect" but that's a mere quibble.

 

[bookitty]

Same here. I feel that feminism has gone beyond equality and into more-for-women-period.

In some areas, that may well be the case. College applicants, for example. Although we still don't have equal numbers of men and women in the hard sciences.

In other areas, (primarily health and reproductive choices) we've gone so backwards in just the last 3 years with regards to equality that it's starting to get a bit scary.

And then there's the extreme fundie Christian backlash to feminism. Admittedly an area which impacts such a small percentage of the population that it more of a blip than a trend but really creepy nonetheless. - Christian patriarchy, in which the man is the head of the household, women submit and children obey; The quiverful movement which raises daughters to be nothing more than subservient breeders; the purity culture (and the disturbing father-daughter pledges and dances) and all the other ways that fundamental Christianity pushes women into the background. It's small now but we're already seeing Christian fundamentalism in politics.

 

[xjx388]

I think we should acknowledge that men and women are fundamentally different.

However, these differences don't mean one is lesser or greater than the other. Women should have the same opportunities that men do and vice versa. Our laws should ensure that there is equal opportunity.

I think it's unfair that women are perceived as "b*****," [can I say that having to censor words in this context is kinda dumb?] when they exhibit authoritative behavior -like a man would. I think it's unfair that men are perceived as "feminine," if they express their emotions. But perceptions like that are engrained in our culture and biology and I don't think we'll ever really get over them.

The fact that the two sexes are culturally and biologically different means that women and men often choose different things -and that's OK. Men traditionally choose to peruse ambitious careers and choose a spouse who will raise their kids. Women traditionally choose their family over their career. These choices can give the appearance of inequality but that isn't really a fair assessment. I guess the argument is: Do women choose this because they don't have the opportunity to do otherwise or because there is some biological imperative?

 

[Staffsknot]

Same here. I feel that feminism has gone beyond equality and into more-for-women-period.

I think sometimes there is a tendency to throw the baby out with the bath water. The strange, esoteric views of a minority of people within feminism often put people off, to the detriment of everyone. There are still important issues that need addressing and I think it is a bit hasty to say that feminism has gone beyond equality.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

I think sometimes there is a tendency to throw the baby out with the bath water. The strange, esoteric views of a minority of people within feminism often put people off, to the detriment of everyone. There are still important issues that need addressing and I think it is a bit hasty to say that feminism has gone beyond equality.

Right. It's important to remember that feminism, just like any ideological movement, has different factions within it, all with their own goals and ideas.

 

[bookitty]

I'm a liberal, progressive, environmentalist, feminist, atheist, federal law enforcement officer. And you thought we were mythical!

It's true! I feel like I just saw a unicorn and I can't tell anyone because they'll think I'm crazy.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I think it's unfair that women are perceived as "b*****," [can I say that having to censor words in this context is kinda dumb?] when they exhibit authoritative behavior -like a man would. I think it's unfair that men are perceived as "feminine," if they express their emotions. But perceptions like that are engrained in our culture and biology and I don't think we'll ever really get over them.

I disagree. I don't think these perceptions are engrained in our biology at all; I think they're cultural, and we can get over them.

The biological differences between males and females are far, far less drastic than the differences between the man archetype and the woman archetype in our society.