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Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

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Just listen to the "911" tape. The last time he saw Martin he was heading for the back entrance where there is an opening that can be walked through. He sounds to me like he thought he was gone.

I think I'll let you discuss this with someone else. You don't appear to even be trying to get things right.

I listened to the 911 tape, and it's pretty clear to me that Zimmerman wanted to continue looking for Martin. It's also pretty clear that Martin wanted nothing to do with Zimmerman, since he left rather then confront him.
 
Quite understandable. Do you think that outlook might change though, if it was clear the person watching you was doing so not because they were stalking you, but because they were a concerned neighbor that thought you might be up to no good and were keeping an eye on you.

I'm not saying TM knew that, but I think it's possible he knew it. In fact, I'm somewhat leaning from thinking it's possible he knew it to likely.

I'm not exactly buying that.

I'm not even sure why you are selling it.
 
You forgot the transexual serial killer option.


It's hard to say. It would require an incredible level of naivete on the part of a teenager, especially a black teenager, walking around the streets late at night and being watched not to realize he may be being watched to make sure he's not up to no good. But without know exactly how it went down it's very, very hard to say what went through TM's mind that night, and it's entirely possible he thought it was something more sinister.

Like Giz, I have a hunch in that regard, but it could well be wrong.

Wow did you just say that for real? Or am I reading it wrong?

M should have known he was being watched for being up to no good because he was black???

Frankly you have just left me stunned.
 
Wow did you just say that for real? Or am I reading it wrong?

M should have known he was being watched for being up to no good because he was black???

Frankly you have just left me stunned.
You are reading it wrong, but I'll go back and edit it to make it clear. One of the sad facts of life is that black people are constantly profiled, and most of them have experienced it. For instance, we know that police officers are often much more likely to pull someone over if they are black, disproportionately with regard to their population percentage in a community. Even wealthy black people in luxury cars are more likely to get pulled over with the suspicion they "must be a drug dealer" even if in actuality they are a lawyer or doctor.

So ya, I think there's a good possibility that TM immediately suspected that if someone "white" was watching him, it's because they had profiled him.

Make sense now?
 
Wow did you just say that for real? Or am I reading it wrong?

M should have known he was being watched for being up to no good because he was black???

Frankly you have just left me stunned.

Yeah, I had to give that a couple of reads myself.

So basically a black teenager should realize that if he's being followed by a stranger at night, it's because it's assumed he's up to no good.

Then the most prudent course of action would be to give the stranger his most non-threatening smile and maybe do a little soft-shoe, so the stranger will know he's one of the "good ones".

Or maybe some kind of curfew that prohibits black people from being out after dark is in order.

Edit:
It would require an incredible level of naivete on the part of a teenager, especially a black teenager, walking around the streets late at night and being watched not to realize he may be being watched to make sure he's not up to no good.

Also, when did shortly after sundown become "late at night"? Maybe that curfew should start around 3 PM just to be on the safe side.

Edit 2:
Edit: So that this is not misunderstood as some type of racist comment, I'm saying that black people are used to being profiled and suspected of something whether by police, citizens etc., as racial bias is still so deeply engrained in our society.

Oh... well, I'm glad that was cleared up. It would be a shame if someone thought it was racist to say that black people are used to being profiled and should take that into consideration next time someone they don't know is following them around.

"Hey... who's that strange guy watching me? Oh, that's right.... I'm black. I'm sure he doesn't mean any harm he just wants to make sure I'm not up to something. Because I'm black. And I'm used to people thinking I'm suspicious. Because I'm black. Now I'll just happily go about my business because there is absolutely nothing untoward happening here at all."
 
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You are reading it wrong, but I'll go back and edit it to make it clear. One of the sad facts of life is that black people are constantly profiled, and most of them have experienced it. For instance, we know that police officers are often much more likely to pull someone over if they are black, disproportionately with regard to their population percentage in a community. Even wealthy black people in luxury cars are more likely to get pulled over with the suspicion they "must be a drug dealer" even if in actuality they are a lawyer or doctor.

So ya, I think there's a good possibility that TM immediately suspected that if someone "white" was watching him, it's because they had profiled him.

Make sense now?

Not really. Let's just leave race out of it OK?

I had enough of that crap yesterday reading Z's myspace page.

M was being watched and followed by someone. M was probably scared. Some would even argue that M had a right to confront his stalker.
 
Not really. Let's just leave race out of it OK?

I had enough of that crap yesterday reading Z's myspace page.

lol. Classic. So after you guys screaming that GZ is a racist with anger management problems for pages and pages, when I bring up the issue that TM may have indeed suspected he was being profiled, it's get suggested I'm racist and now I should "just leave race out of it".

Some would even argue that M had a right to confront his stalker.
Yep, several nutters have already suggested that he had every right to beat the crap out of GZ. Luckily I know you'd never suggest something so silly.
 
lol. Classic. So after you guys screaming that GZ is a racist with anger management problems for pages and pages, when I bring up the issue that TM may have indeed suspected he was being profiled, it's get suggested I'm racist and now I should "just leave race out of it".


Yep, several nutters have already suggested that he had every right to beat the crap out of GZ. Luckily I know you'd never suggest something so silly.

Who is "you guys"? I never said anything about Z being a racist....

Also, I never suggested you are racist. Just because I don't agree with what you are saying doesn't mean I am saying you are racist!

As for the second part, if there was some evidence that M should have logically thought his life was threatened, then yes M does have the right to defend himself by any means necessary, or "beat the crap out of Z" as you put it. And it just so happens that in Florida he doesn't have to try and retreat first if his life is threatened.
 
Sure seemed like this was a way of suggesting I was making a racist statement:
Wow did you just say that for real? Or am I reading it wrong?

M should have known he was being watched for being up to no good because he was black???

Frankly you have just left me stunned.
And once I explained myself instead of saying, "oh OK, I misunderstood" you went with the "let's keep race out of this". Anyhow, I'm moving on.
 
Sure seemed like this was a way of suggesting I was making a racist statement:

And once I explained myself instead of saying, "oh OK, I misunderstood" you went with the "let's keep race out of this". Anyhow, I'm moving on.

You can say something that I think makes little sense or is confusing. Just because the something was about race doesn't mean I am saying you are a racist!
 
Fair enough. Let's put it this way. If I said what you seemed to think I said, I'd think it was racist :). Therefore I assumed that's what you were suggesting. If that was not the case, then thanks :).
 
I just read JKs posts in between and I obviously don't exactly support his interpretation. Either way, it is there for everyone to read.
 
Fine. How does someone scream with both their nose and mouth covered?
Try it using your own hands.

If you don't have housemates watching make an honest struggle out of it too.:D

Covering someone's mouth and nose (pinching the nose shut is best) with just hands doesn't completely suffocate a person, it's impossible to get an airtight seal against the mouth of a struggling person. It would feel like suffocation to a person having it done to them but they would still be able to get air and therefore still be able to scream. It's also not clear for how much of the fight GZ says it was being done or if GZ was able to break the grip enough to get off some good screams anyways.

Some of the weird screams and volume shifts in the 911 audio screams may be due to hand being over GZ's mouth at times.
 
i do not for one minute think this was down to race.

my opinion is that GZ based on his track record is a loose cannon and was an accident waiting to happen it has happened and now he is trying to cover his tracks.

Based on what I have seen so far and read, in my view he has committed manslaughter but not murder and not for reasons of racial profiling nor an agenda.
 
TM might have had his hand over GZ's mouth for a time, and GZ might have managed to get TM's hand off his mouth to scream.

This is a struggle that went on for a time.

Not necessarily inconsistent.

Circling the truck is what GZ has said all along, so that's actually consistent.

None of this is even remotely enough to charge GZ with murder 2, imo.
 
Why would TM put his hand over GZ's mouth?

Not to suffocate.

Because GZ was screaming for help, and TM had to try to shut him up.

Funny how that possible version isn't so popular in the media.
 
i do not for one minute think this was down to race.

my opinion is that GZ based on his track record is a loose cannon and was an accident waiting to happen it has happened and now he is trying to cover his tracks.

Based on what I have seen so far and read, in my view he has committed manslaughter but not murder and not for reasons of racial profiling nor an agenda.
You aren't specifically responding to me, but I'll merely point out that I never said it came down to race. What I suggested is that TM could well have suspected he was being watched/profiled by GZ for exactly the reasons GZ was watching him, as opposed to thinking GZ was a "pervert" or "gang banger". I find it utterly fascinating that the "anti-GZ" folk somehow don't like the idea of even acknowledging that rather strikingly obvious possibility.

Since I'm interested in the truth I have 0 issues acknowledging the possibility that TM could have perceived GZ as a gang banger or similar.
 
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A third NBC employee has been fired for yet another edit of the Zimmerman call to Sanford Police.

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good or on drugs or something. He’s got his hand in his waistband. And he’s a black male.

Dispatcher: Are you following him?

Zimmerman: Yeah.

Dispatcher: Okay, we don’t need you to do that.
 
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