Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[GWCarver]

What a bizarre take on the event. We know that Zimmerman was upset, and that he decided to chase after Martin. We're suddenly supposed to believe that he had given up, and was unconcerned with Martin?

Just listen to the "911" tape. The last time he saw Martin he was heading for the back entrance where there is an opening that can be walked through. He sounds to me like he thought he was gone.

I think I'll let you discuss this with someone else. You don't appear to even be trying to get things right.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Keeping in sight = following. Following strangers at night is an extremely threatening behavior. Attempting to "detain" them is even more threatening.

Are you sure you're in the right thread and not confusing this was some other case where we have evidence someone tried to "detain" someone?

Are you seriously telling me that if you were being followed, on a dark street at night..

Are you seriously telling me you can't differentiate between the two options he offered?

and the person who was following you came up to you and tried to force you to do something you would just do it and not try to defend yourself?

See above, are you sure you are in the right thread? What is this "forced you to do something" of which you speak?

 

[Rare Truth]

Although you were addressing gwcarver, I answered your question, buy you didn't answer mine. It's not a particularly meaningful question, it's like asking "what if the police develop an instrument that can look into the past and observe and record the event, would you change your opinion then". The answer is of course, what of it? Now how about answering my question?

It's been a long day, and reviewing all the replies since I left is too taxing at this moment, but I'll reply to your post now, and say what you suggest is ridiculous, and my suggestion that voice analysis reports could very well play a part in this trial (and because one investigator has said what he knows to date about it providing no insight indicates little to me)...is, well. the opposite of ridiculous.

Voice analysis technology has been accepted in a number of court cases. Fact. I am not saying it would certainly be here, but it's not out of the realm.

Let's leave that aside, if there were other things that might indicate it was not his voice crying for help, like the defendant's statements on the night of the shooting that he had both his nose and mouth covered and was suffocating, and perhaps witnesses yet unheard of that could attest they heard the boy yelling -- would that sway you?

 

[Rare Truth]

Originally Posted by GWCarver
BTW, I heard O'Mara say Zimmerman weighed 185, but I don't have a link.

At the time of Z's arrest, yes. His official weight was 185. Confirmed.

The time of the incident...'bout 190-200. Unconfirmed, but very likely.

 

[GWCarver]

At the time of Z's arrest, yes. His official weight was 185. Confirmed.

The time of the incident...'bout 190-200. Unconfirmed, but very likely.

Or one could say unconfirmed is unconfirmed.

 

[GWCarver]

It's been a long day, and reviewing all the replies since I left is too taxing at this moment, but I'll reply to your post now, and say what you suggest is ridiculous, and my suggestion that voice analysis reports could very well play a part in this trial (and because one investigator has said what he knows to date about it providing no insight indicates little to me)...is, well. the opposite of ridiculous.

Voice analysis technology has been accepted in a number of court cases. Fact. I am not saying it would certainly be here, but it's not out of the realm.

Let's leave that aside, if there were other things that might indicate it was not his voice crying for help, like the defendant's statements on the night of the shooting that he had both his nose and mouth covered and was suffocating, and perhaps witnesses yet unheard of that could attest they heard the boy yelling -- would that sway you?

Do you have a source that quotes Zimmerman or anyone saying he was suffocating?

 

[This is The End]

Another timeline where TM decided to stand around not going anywhere for 3 minutes instead of the last 70 yards to home sweet home.

Of course the idea that he didn't want to talk to his GF in front of his father so he just stayed at the cut through is absurd becuse his parents were in Orlando at dinner.

Less than 1 minute he could have been safe at home, completing his 45 minute .8 mile walk ...

Yeah I know we have all been called crazy, but there are many of us who would not lead a stranger to our home.

I have done this before. A car was following me for many miles and through many turns. When I neared home I drove around the block a few times until they stopped following me, and then drove around a few more times, before I finally went to my home.

Some people would not want to lead strangers who are following them to their home.

Call us crazy. Call it a bad idea. Call it stupid. That doesn't mean there aren't people who would make that decision. There are, and M might have been one of them.

 

[Rare Truth]

Or one could say unconfirmed is unconfirmed.

His own family and friends said he was not eating and lost weight - in an ironic twist one even said life was so bad for Zimm while he was in hiding (before his arrest) that he couldn't even go to the 7 Eleven. lol.

We also have his police walk in videos...Yeah he lost weight. Whether it was 5 or 15 lbs is up to you, but it... is

 

[Rare Truth]

Do you have a source that quotes Zimmerman or anyone saying he was suffocating?

I thought you read or saw the bond hearing?

You were quoting it. You should have seen it.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Voice analysis technology has been accepted in a number of court cases. Fact.

Voice identification technology is limited with regard to what it can discern. Fact.

And you did not quote and address my earlier question to you. Here is the exchange:

The screams on the 911 tapes.

If (let's just say) an audio of Trayman was found, and FBI voice analysis was able to determine with a very clear certainty it was his voice there, how much would that sway your impressions of where you stand on the issue?

Is the FBI voice analysis scientific? Is it widely accepted by the scientific community, i.e. real scientists, not pseudo experts? Can they prove their conclusions be replicating them in double blind tests?

See how that works? If you can provide meaningful scientific proof that shows who was screaming, then I would give great credence to it. Who it shows is screaming is utterly irrelevant, some of us here actually care about facts.

If on the other hand you want to give me pseudo scientific quacks, than it would again be utterly irrelevant to me regardless of who they said it is.

 

[GWCarver]

Yeah I know we have all been called crazy, but there are many of us who would not lead a stranger to our home.

I have done this before. A car was following me for many miles and through many turns. When I neared home I drove around the block a few times until they stopped following me, and then drove around a few more times, before I finally went to my home.

Some people would not want to lead strangers who are following them to their home.

So, you actually think TM, who could probably have covered the distance to Brandy's house before Zimmerman got out of the truck, would have hid between the buildings or on a porch - which would have left him at risk - rather than just go inside and call 911? That simply doesn't resonate. I reject out of hand the idea that a kid who was scared to death would stay outside rather than seek safety, and there is no way he would have been at the end of the sidewalk where Zimmerman's truck was parked instead of at the other end where Brandy's house was located.

Of course, if he was really scared, he would have called 911 using the phone in his pocket.

 

[Rare Truth]

Fine. How does someone scream with both their nose and mouth covered?

 

[Giz]

Keeping in sight = following. Following strangers at night is an extremely threatening behavior. Attempting to "detain" them is even more threatening.

Are you seriously telling me that if you were being followed, on a dark street at night, and the person who was following you came up to you and tried to force you to do something you would;d just do it and not try to defend yourself?

Obviously it depends.

Following from 50 yards back... not very threatening and does not merit a violent response (would have thought that was obvious).

Coming up to you and trying to force you to do something... very threatening and may well justify violence (would have thought that was obvious).

We don't know for sure which happened that night. I have a hunch that it was nearer the first case (i.e. following at a distance) but I could be wrong.

 

[This is The End]

So, you actually think TM, who could probably have covered the distance to Brandy's house before Zimmerman got out of the truck, would have hid between the buildings or on a porch - which would have left him at risk - rather than just go inside and call 911? That simply doesn't resonate. I reject out of hand the idea that a kid who was scared to death would stay outside rather than seek safety, and there is no way he would have been at the end of the sidewalk where Zimmerman's truck was parked instead of at the other end where Brandy's house was located.

Of course, if he was really scared, he would have called 911 using the phone in his pocket.

Who said anything about calling 911? What does that have to do with going to his house? Did you read my post and the quote it was responding to?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Some people would not want to lead strangers who are following them to their home.

Quite understandable. Do you think that outlook might change though, if it was clear the person watching you was doing so not because they were stalking you, but because they were a concerned neighbor that thought you might be up to no good and were keeping an eye on you.

I'm not saying TM knew that, but I think it's possible he knew it. In fact, I'm somewhat leaning from thinking it's possible he knew it to likely.

 

[Rare Truth]

Quite understandable. Do you think that outlook might change though, if it was clear the person watching you was doing so not because they were stalking you, but because they were a concerned neighbor that thought you might be up to no good and were keeping an eye on you.

I'm not saying TM knew that, but I think it's possible he knew it. In fact, I'm somewhat leaning from thinking it's possible he knew it to likely.

For all he knew, Z could have been a pervert molester, or a white supremacist or a thug out to do him harm. I'd say that's just as likely.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Obviously it depends.

Following from 50 yards back... not very threatening and does not merit a violent response (would have thought that was obvious).

Coming up to you and trying to force you to do something... very threatening and may well justify violence (would have thought that was obvious).

We don't know for sure which happened that night. I have a hunch that it was nearer the first case (i.e. following at a distance) but I could be wrong.

Now wait a minute here! Where does having hunches and acknowledging you might be wrong fit into this? GZ is a lying murderer with a history of anger management problems. You need to establish your beliefs and stick with them, none of this "I could be wrong" nonsense.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

For all he knew, Z could have been a pervert molester, or a white supremacist or a thug out to do him harm.

You forgot the transexual serial killer option.

I'd say that's just as likely.

It's hard to say. It would require an incredible level of naivete on the part of a teenager, especially a black teenager*, walking around the streets late at night and being watched not to realize he may be being watched to make sure he's not up to no good. But without know exactly how it went down it's very, very hard to say what went through TM's mind that night, and it's entirely possible he thought it was something more sinister.

Like Giz, I have a hunch in that regard, but it could well be wrong.

*Edit: So that this is not misunderstood as some type of racist comment, I'm saying that black people are used to being profiled and suspected of something whether by police, citizens etc., as racial bias is still so deeply engrained in our society.

 

[GWCarver]

Who said anything about calling 911? What does that have to do with going to his house? Did you read my post and the quote it was responding to?

No, my response was to the following: (I leaped to the conclusion that you were explaining why TM didn't just go home. I've heard the same theory many times before, but simple reasoning suggests that if he wanted to avoid trouble and just go home, it could have easily been accomplished and he would still be alive. Also, in no way has it been established that Zimmerman was following Martin until he started running, and then only briefly.)

"Some people would not want to lead strangers who are following them to their home."

 

[Cylinder]

For all he knew, Z could have been a pervert molester, or a white supremacist or a thug out to do him harm. I'd say that's just as likely.

The problem with that is in the version of reality where Zimmerman is a white supremacist and looking for trouble, Martin is a just another black thug with a gun looking to hit a lick.