Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Kaosium]

I was talking about the Youtube videos from the start. The Twitter nonsense is of even less significance since it wasn't even Trayvon who made the comment about the bus driver.

What specific youtube videos are you referring to?

Yes, and if there were evidence any of that happened, you might have a point.

Why do you consider the police determining that the physical evidence,injuries and witnesses at the scene corroborating his story don't count as evidence?

And Zimmerman following Martin instead of just waiting in his car for the police to arrive kinda suggests he initiated the meeting.

Have you taken into account that the encounter highly likely couldn't have occurred in the place it did unless TM didn't go home?

There's no evidence Zimmerman took "several head shots".

The wounds on his head.

And that you've manufactured some scenario in which Zimmerman must have been in a blind rage, only to then to dismiss it based on it being unlikely isn't a particularly compelling argument.

You're right, it's not. That's yet another indication of the unlikelihood of GZ initiating the violence. Determining that sort of thing through falsifications and lowering of probabilities helps uncover the fact a man with a gun who called police and knew they were on their way is highly unlikely to have initiated the violence.

Zimmerman assaulted a police officer. That is a factual statement. That you wish to mitigate it is of little interest to me.

That's because it's of little relevance when considering the other factors involved.

That's an awful lot of words for you to simply say that you don't apply the same standards in assessing Zimmerman's behavior as you did with Martin.

I think you misunderstood.

 

[EdG]

What significance do you place on this?

I'm not sure which "this" you're referring to but I'll take a few shots at it. One significance is that Zimmerman lied about the assault when applying for the police academy. "I wouldn't have attacked him if I'd known he was a cop."

Another significance is that the charge was reduced and he was allowed into pre-trial diversion. One could SPECULATE that his father, a retired judge, assisted in this. But that is pure speculation and I label it as such.

A final point of significance is that assuming the police officer is truthful in his sworn affadavit, Zimmerman had anger and authority issues. "I don't care who you are."

 

[Cylinder]

He was checked out by EMTs on the scene. Do you imagine an EMT is unable to diagnose a broken nose?

EMT/Paramedics do not give definitive injury diagnosis.

 

[Kaosium]

You keep mentioning these "head shots". Do you have some information that the rest of us aren't privy to?

Yes, the police determining that his story matched the evidence and witnesses at the scene, along with the release of the photos taken that show his head all bloodied.

As far as the significance, he was checked out by EMTs on the scene. They would have examined his bloody nose. They would have been able to determine if it was broken. It's damn strange if they didn't.

Why would it matter whether it was broken or just bloody?

And do I really have to spell out for you the motivation Zimmerman would have for making his injuries appear worse than the actually were? All that separates him from serious prison time is his self-defense claim. The more severe his injuries, the more plausible that claim becomes.

Not really, I suspect you misunderstand the nature of a self-defense claim. One doesn't have to be on the verge of unconsciousness before feeling threatened, the difference between a bloody and bloody and broken nose is of little significance. As has been posted, one doesn't even have to be injured in order to make a valid self-defense claim.

 

[crimresearch]

I'm not sure which "this" you're referring to but I'll take a few shots at it. One significance is that Zimmerman lied about the assault when applying for the police academy. "I wouldn't have attacked him if I'd known he was a cop."

Another significance is that the charge was reduced and he was allowed into pre-trial diversion. One could SPECULATE that his father, a retired judge, assisted in this. But that is pure speculation and I label it as such.

A final point of significance is that assuming the police officer is truthful in his sworn affadavit, Zimmerman had anger and authority issues. "I don't care who you are."

His father was not a retired judge, and the diversion was pretty standard for that sort of 'resisting while partying' offence, so the question would seem to be 'got it lowered how?'.

 

[curi0us]

You keep mentioning these "head shots". Do you have some information that the rest of us aren't privy to?

???

There is now a bloody photo of the back of GZ's head, a police report saying GZ's head was bloody, Gilbreath saying GZ had multiple lacerations on his scalp from a hard object hitting it, three neighbors saying they saw GZ bandaged up, and GZ's own testimony. What's do you have to refute that?

 

[Rare Truth]

Hold the phone... was anyone else aware of this?


Because I sure wasn't.

If true, this means there is no documentation that Zimmerman broke his nose until the following day.

I think Rare Truth might have a point. A very significant one.

Thank you for that. This is something that has bothered me since I started looking into it. That and the way the story evolved into a broken nose only some 3 weeks later.

 

[Cylinder]

Another significance is that the charge was reduced and he was allowed into pre-trial diversion. One could SPECULATE that his father, a retired judge, assisted in this. But that is pure speculation and I label it as such.

At the bond hearing, Judge Lester addressed the two prior incidents:

Jedge Lester: And so we're familiar with those particular situations. I won't say it's standard, but it's a run-of-the-mill type run-in with the alcohol and beverage agents at the library, I believe it was. They're fairly common, so I'm familiar with those, even though it's in another jurisdiction.

The injunction was somewhat mild compared to the injunctions that I'm familiar with and so really what this revolves about is the facts of this particular situation as presented to the court.

 

[Rare Truth]

His father was not a retired judge, and the diversion was pretty standard for that sort of 'resisting while partying' offence, so the question would seem to be 'got it lowered how?'.

A retired judge Magistrate "for the Supreme Court" <---- Zimmerman's words when he was was trying to apply to become a LEO and in the retelling of his Felony with Violence arrest a few years earlier. He invoked daddy then. And the "for the Supreme Court" part was a sweet touch, eh?

 

[Cylinder]

???

There is now a bloody photo of the back of GZ's head, a police report saying GZ's head was bloody, Gilbreath saying GZ had multiple lacerations on his scalp from a hard object hitting it, three neighbors saying they saw GZ bandaged up, and GZ's own testimony.

You left out at least two witnesses that saw the blood immediately after the shooting, another witness who did not see blood but observed Zimmerman pacing back and forth holding his head, photos at the crime scene of head injuries, video at the police station showing injuries and a very strong suggestion by O'Mara of medical reports.

 

[Kaosium]

I'm not sure which "this" you're referring to but I'll take a few shots at it. One significance is that Zimmerman lied about the assault when applying for the police academy. "I wouldn't have attacked him if I'd known he was a cop."

How does that apply to this event though? The problem with weighting that with much significance is that there is indeed evidence to support his story the night of the shooting, the police did vet his story. Now one can argue that for whatever reason the police were incompetent or corrupt, but that contention has not been well supported either.

Another significance is that the charge was reduced and he was allowed into pre-trial diversion. One could SPECULATE that his father, a retired judge, assisted in this. But that is pure speculation and I label it as such.

That's fine, however if the extent of the injuries to the police officer were minor I'd be surprised if they didn't reduce it as a matter of course for most people accused. I read that it was a shove, and have never heard anything about injuries, do you have additional information?

A final point of significance is that assuming the police officer is truthful in his sworn affadavit, Zimmerman had anger and authority issues. "I don't care who you are."

Adding it all up it suggests to me he was probably drunk.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You're comparing a juvenile being suspended from high school to an adult being arrested for felony assault on a police officer and concluding that the high school suspension is the more serious offense? Wow!

If that's what you got out of it

"felony assault on a police officer" = he pushed an undercover cop in a bar. It's not quite as egregious as it sounds. But yes, seven years ago, while in college, at a bar, GZ did something stupid but not particularly violent or horrible ( he pushed someone .. oh my !) that carries an huge penalty.

TM has been suspended for violating rules 3 times already this school year. And we don't know what else because dead people need their privacy...

So, yeah, outside of what will be legally admissible i think we can ask who has a harder time following the rules.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I'm not sure which "this" you're referring to but I'll take a few shots at it. One significance is that Zimmerman lied about the assault when applying for the police academy. "I wouldn't have attacked him if I'd known he was a cop."

Another significance is that the charge was reduced and he was allowed into pre-trial diversion. One could SPECULATE that his father, a retired judge, assisted in this. But that is pure speculation and I label it as such.

A final point of significance is that assuming the police officer is truthful in his sworn affadavit, Zimmerman had anger and authority issues. "I don't care who you are."

GZ claims the officer did not identify himself. The officer claims he did. Tie goes to the police, because they are awesome and never lie, right ?

And your speculation sucks, because GZ father was not a judge, as has been covered multiple times in this thread and on the Internet.

Anger and Authority issues

 

[EdG]

His father was not a retired judge, and the diversion was pretty standard for that sort of 'resisting while partying' offence, so the question would seem to be 'got it lowered how?'.

From Reuters, 4/25/12: "Robert Zimmerman Sr. was a U.S. Army veteran who served in Vietnam in 1970, and was stationed at Fort Myer in Arlington, Virginia, in 1975 with Gladys Mesa's brother George. Zimmerman Sr. also served two tours in Korea, and spent the final 10 years of his 22-year military career in the Pentagon, working for the Department of Defense, a family member said.

In his final years in Virginia before retiring to Florida, Robert Zimmerman served as a magistrate in Fairfax County's 19th Judicial District."

Virginia State Code § 19.2-33. Office of magistrate. -- The office of magistrate shall be vested with all the authority, duties and obligations previously vested in the office of justice of the peace prior to January 1, 1974.

From Judgepedia.org: Virginia Magistrates provide an independent, unbiased review of complaints of criminal conduct brought to the office by law enforcement or the general public. Magistrate duties also include issuing various types of processes such as arrest warrants, summonses, bonds, search warrants, subpoenas, and certain civil warrants. Magistrates also conduct bail hearings in instances in which an individual is arrested on a warrant charging him or her with a criminal offense.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

There are a number of disturbing facts about George Zimmerman that will make any reasonable person highly skeptical of his words and deeds concerning the events of that night. Consider the following:

1. Zimmerman has a history of violence. Two of his ex-fiancees filed restraining orders for domestic violence.

Did you find that second fiance yet ?

 

[EdG]

we don't know what else because dead people need their privacy...

Not only dead, but a juvenile, and as such, protected by the privacy policy of his school system.

By the way, do you have access to Zimmerman's school records? Was he a model student? If so, why wasn't he allowed into the Marine Corps despite having been in ROTC during high school? If he was a model adult, why did the police academy reject his application?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

A retired judge Magistrate "for the Supreme Court" <---- Zimmerman's words when he was was trying to apply to become a LEO and in the retelling of his Felony with Violence arrest a few years earlier. He invoked daddy then. And the "for the Supreme Court" part was a sweet touch, eh?

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/hr/magistrate.htm

The Commonwealth of Virginia has an opening for a magistrate for Fairfax County. The magistrate is an independent judicial officer appointed by the Executive Secretary for the Supreme Court of Virginia.

How could someone possibly get the details wrong about thier fathers job ?

 

[Rare Truth]

GZ claims the officer did not identify himself. The officer claims he did. Tie goes to the police, because they are awesome and never lie, right ?

And your speculation sucks, because GZ father was not a judge, as has been covered multiple times in this thread and on the Internet.

Anger and Authority issues

Poor quality image, but here is the statement from the LEO - the State Police - on the 2005 arrest:

http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photog...ed_Page_03.htm

“I identified myself as a state police officer and showed Zimmerman my badge and asked him to leave the area. He stated, ‘I don’t care who you are.’ I again asked Zimmerman to leave, he then stated "**** you"
at that time I attempted to escort Zimmerman away from the interview room and he struggled away from me and pushed my arms away with his hands. After a short struggle with Zimmerman, he was placed in handcuffs and detained.”
​

The officer identified himself and showed him his badge. Because Zimmerman asserts the officer did not, does not make it so.

And if Zimmerman's father was not a judge, why did he assert he was a retired Magistrate Judge for the Supreme Court?

 

[EdG]

Did you find that second fiance yet ?

I believe I misread the following to mean 2 fiancees. I think the 1st paragraph is meant as a summary intro to the next 2 paragraphs and I took the part about breaking off an engagement as a separate incident. My bad.

Reuters 4/25/12: "Then came 2005, and a series of troubles. Zimmerman's business failed, he was arrested, and he broke off an engagement with a woman who filed a restraining order against him.

That July, Zimmerman was charged with resisting arrest, violence, and battery of an officer after shoving an undercover alcohol-control agent who was arresting an under-age friend of Zimmerman's at a bar. He avoided conviction by agreeing to participate in a pre-trial diversion program that included anger-management classes.

In August, Zimmerman's fiancee at the time, Veronica Zuazo, filed a civil motion for a restraining order alleging domestic violence. Zimmerman reciprocated with his own order on the same grounds, and both orders were granted. The relationship ended."

 

[TheL8Elvis]

[/INDENT]The officer identified himself and showed him his badge. Because Zimmerman asserts the officer did not, does not make it so.

I understand that. Likewise with the officer.

And if Zimmerman's father was not a judge, why did he assert he was a retired Magistrate Judge for the Supreme Court?

Because he had a poor understanding of the correct impressive sounding title for his father ?