Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[curi0us]

No there is an unsubstantiated third hand report.

• The description of events relayed by GZ in his call to the police is direct evidence for the behavior I described. I suspect you just have no idea what "evidence" means in regards to a criminal trial.
  
• It's obviously not "third hand", the public has access to the audio recordings of GZ himself talking at the time that it happened.
  
• While it is unsubstantiated that doesn't alter the fact that it is still evidence for the behavior I describe.

 

[crimresearch]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/...hood-watch-20120319,0,7016674.story?track=rss
The teen, who was walking back from a store, was carrying only a cellphone, a bag of Skittles candy and an iced tea, authorities say.

Although I don't believe it was ever stated, it appears the phone was locked, otherwise they could have just looked at the call history.

That seems to be commentary in the context of Martin being unarmed, as opposed to being classified as a UV/John Doe by the inital police...

"He's got his hand in his waistband and he's a black male," Zimmerman can be heard telling the dispatcher, saying he's following Martin. "We don't need you to do that," the dispatcher told him. But Zimmerman continued to follow Martin.

Moments later, shots were fired.

The teen, who was walking back from a store, was carrying only a cellphone, a bag of Skittles candy and an iced tea, authorities say.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

If it holds up to scrutiny, I'll admit I was wrong. It just seems strange to me that it was only the known liars that were his first 'attorneys' that noted the broken nose, some 4 weeks later.

Don't forget, the police are liars, crump is a liar, TM parents are liars ... in this case, liar is a pretty easy name to stick on all the parties.

Those reports were wrong. The father said initally when he first heard the 911 calls, he could not tell they were of his son, becasue they were too distorted. Not long after, he heard a cleaned up version, and determined with certainty they were his son. The mother also states with certainty.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...20120316_1_deadly-shooting-shot-man-reports/2

Serino said Trayvon's father, Tracy Martin, listened to all of the 911 calls in the case before the entire family convened at City Hall to listen Friday night. When asked if the voice on one, a male calling for help was his son, told Serino no.

Police lied Friday, Crump said, when they said Tracy Martin said the voice crying for help was not his son. What Tracy Martin told police, Crump said, was that "he couldn't tell, that it was too distorted."

The audio has since been cleaned up, and now Tracy Martin has no doubt but that the voice is his son, Crump said.

See, the police are liars. It's a conspiracy

I would not take Gilbreath's coyness to share information in a unplanned, highly unusual witness stand episode during a bond hearing as being as oafish as you portend. He was only one of the investigators, and what was shared with him may have only been portions of the investigation.

Do you have any reason to believe he was asked to investigate a homicide, but only given partial information to work with ? Does that make sense in your head ?

His reputation precedes him as being a very capable investigator. In fact, he spent 32 years as a homicide detective.

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/031208/met_256046332.shtml

The above article is from 2008. Looks like he was about to retire then. Guess he decided not to, or his skills were greatly needed. Either way, the "crime scene guru" does not appear to be any slouch.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

That seems to be commentary in the context of Martin being unarmed, as opposed to being classified as a UV/John Doe by the inital police...

http://sandrarose.com/2012/03/911-call-trayvon-martin-cried-for-help-before-gunshot/

Police arrived on the scene in minutes. Trayvon’s body was bagged and taken to the morgue, where he was tagged as a John Doe. No one contacted Trayvon’s family even though police had Trayvon’s cell phone in their possession.

 

[curi0us]

I'm sure this has been posted already, but does anybody have the timeline for the following three events:

1. Zimmerman's call to the police. When the call started and when it stopped.
2. Trayvon's call to his girlfriend. When it started and when it stopped.
3. The 911 call with the screams for help and the gunshot. When it started and when it stopped (and when the screams and gunshot took place).

An external link is fine too.

should all be here I think:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8141222&highlight=timeline#post8141222

It's more general but here is also the best attempt at a comprehensive timeline I've seen so far:
http://stoneoforthanc.blogspot.com/2012/04/zimmermanmartin-timeline.html

 

[Cylinder]

From my understanding of this ruling: PETER ROUSSONICOLOS, v. STATE OF FLORIDA
it very well could be admissible. Yes, there are some strict stipulations, but it is possible.

By statute, Zimmerman's testimony at the bond hearing is inadmissible against the defendant in all cases except perjury causes. I'll have to look the specific statute up (I've seemed to have lost it) but I believe it's linked earlier in the thread at the point we were discussing the bond hearing. I haven't yet read the cite you provided.

If thiis testimony was admissible at trial, O'Mara would have never subjected Zimmerman to cross-examination on a matter that was immaterial to bond, he would had never prompted him to apologize to the Martin family which could be dressed up as an admission of at least some guilt to a trial jury looking for a comprimise verdict and the judge would have had to admonish Zimmerman regarding his right to testify or remain silent with no (under the law at least) adverse affect in the eyes of the jury.

 

[Kaosium]

That's one way to put it. Another way is to say that one is a Youtube video of a fight that didn't directly involve the person in question, and the other is an admission to criminal and/or violent behavior from someone with a history of criminal and violent behavior.

I must have missed something here, I though the comparison was between a twitter about taking a swing at a bus driver, and the other that myspace page?

Zimmerman's 'history of criminal and violent behavior' becomes less relevant when we consider the outcome of Zimmerman on the ground with a broken nose and being whacked in the head screaming for help for significant amount of time before he uses the gun.

Now that might have happened because GZ attacked TM barehanded, however being as the evidence of TM being there after he could have easily been home if he'd wanted to avoid the encounter kinda suggests that TM may well have initiated the meeting. So does the fact that George Zimmerman had called police and knew they would be there soon, as well as that he didn't use the gun until he'd taken several head shots, suggesting to me that if he did attack TM under those conditions it would have had to have been in blind rage, which doesn't strike me as all that likely frankly.

Right. Just like Zimmerman assaulting a police office happened for certain, while Martin burglarizing a home may have happened.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the 'assault of a police officer' amount to him pushing someone in defense of someone else? The police officer being off-duty and in a bar or something?

So in what specific way did you employ these tools to support the argument you made that since Martin is a suspected burglar, he might have been casing houses on his way home from the store?

That was in hopes in might be generally helpful. But if you want to know why I chose those, use the framework of Bayes to determine probabilities because Boolean logic doesn't work with people because they're too damn complicated. Put what you know of the person, (starting with the benefit of the doubt--a few instances of something in a lifetime doesn't move you to absolutes) the situation they're in and employ game theory to explore possible options and outcomes. I also included an example of a methodology already in use on this specific subject with additional data to collect and I blew one link (I do this! Feel free to jump up and down point your finger and celebrate!) and included something that I'd been perusing for another thread I'd been following. I meant to include this as without it you're lost before you start. Oh, I probably should have added this as well as once it is identified it can be very useful in a number of ways as well, but nevermind about that. The last is what I happen to think is an effective methodology for skepticism but it's not particularly in vogue in this day and age I guess.

Incidentally I already supported those arguments in previous posts, those links were just scratching the surface of what can be helpful in analyzing something like this. There's no 'proof' there, nor can there be, but I suspect the ones who employ some, all, or related ones with get to the answer quicker, because this one is real easy and what's more interesting at this juncture is why people still believe it, and how it will turn out. As for how I would apply them, take the data posted in this thread and keep in mind while the skittles and tea lower the possibility (as does the evidence that suggests GZ might have just had it with hoodied teens in his neighborhood and be more likely to misinterpret TM's behavior) the other indications I've already mentioned and do not need to belabor must also be taken into account thus I do not think it fair to assume GZ was lying or mistaken when he called police to report suspicious behavior.

 

[curi0us]

Anyone hear what time TM was seen on the 7-11 security cameras? My search turned up an article I'm not sure about the credibility of but suggests it's might be a critical detail:

The public relations director of 7-Eleven told me that, according to the company's manager of security, a store camera captured an African-American male (she wouldn't commit to "young") purchasing a bag of Skittles and a can of tea (she wouldn't say that it was "Arizona" tea). The hard disk with the video was removed after the story broke, and it has been subpoenaed by investigators for the state and/or county. The company has not made it available to the media. The public relations director could not specify the exact time of the purchase but said it was between 6:00 and 6:30.

The 7-Eleven, according to maps.google, is 0.8 miles from the entrance to The Retreat at Twin Lakes, a 16-minute walk.There is not much to see or do on Rinehart Road on a Sunday night, and it was raining hard.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2012...trayvon_martins_final_hour.html#ixzz1rYNtbsB7

Again, I'm not sure how credible that source is but if the author is correct about TM being at the 7/11 at between 6 and 6:30 that's that will be proof that TM didn't just goto the store and head back. Nothing criminal about that at all but it does alter the narrative somewhat.

Also, the error in the original story that TM went out for snacks during the NBA All star game half-time is looking like a glaring mistake to me as if anyone actually knew what TM was doing they wouldn't have gotten that detail messed up.

 

[johnny karate]

It's more general but here is also the best attempt at a comprehensive timeline I've seen so far:
http://stoneoforthanc.blogspot.com/2012/04/zimmermanmartin-timeline.html

Hold the phone... was anyone else aware of this?

Joe Oliver, a friend of Zimmerman's, said Zimmerman told him he was "cleaned up by cops at the scene" that night before being taken to the station.

Oliver also said it was discovered the next day that Zimmerman's nose was broken.

Because I sure wasn't.

If true, this means there is no documentation that Zimmerman broke his nose until the following day.

I think Rare Truth might have a point. A very significant one.

 

[Kaosium]

Do I answer hypothetical questions?

I'm not sure, do you?

What is your recreation of the event and how is it supported?

 

[Kaosium]

Hold the phone... was anyone else aware of this?


Because I sure wasn't.

If true, this means there is no documentation that Zimmerman broke his nose until the following day.

I think Rare Truth might have a point. A very significant one.

What significance would you place on the possibility that despite the fact that he'd been seen with a bloody nose, had told cops he'd been hit in the nose and that it was discovered broken the next day that it might not have been broken in the fight but sometime between when it was hit and discovered the next day? Wouldn't you think the head shots he took and the bloody nose itself would be enough evidence of his story that there would be little point in pretending the nose was broken during the fight if it wasn't? What purpose would that serve?

 

[Cylinder]

Why would the Sentinel story of March 8th, where it is noted clearly they had seen the incident report note the part of only the grass? The BLOODY part is NOT THERE.

Pretty damn important information to leave out.

There clearly was a lot of information left out of media reports during the course of this story while they were busy foisting the misreprestentations, outright fabrications and complete woo to better dovetail the template they wished to create. The narrative portion of the police report is timestamped Feb. 27 at 0228.

No, the police are not EMT's, but they also HAVE the EMT report as part of their investigation, know full well Zimmerman's treatment last literally a few minutes in the back of a squad car -- and also do not note since that time - a week - no "broken nose" medical records exist, or have been presented by Zimmerman after.

EMT/Paramedics will only note what's relevant to treatment. They don't give diagnose injuries - they report what symptoms present themselves to indicate their specific first responder care plan.

The police at any time between the incident and March 23 could have reported this, as it would certainly bolster Police Chief Lee's case, especially as the intensity was growing and he was fighting back on his decision to not submit a warrant for his arrest, yet he makes not one mention of this supposed "broken nose." None.

Awfully strange, if you ask me.

The police we not aware of Zimmerman's broken nose at that point. They were aware of his injured nose.

 

[EdG]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the 'assault of a police officer' amount to him pushing someone in defense of someone else? The police officer being off-duty and in a bar or something?

You're wrong. The police officer was an undercover alcohol agent arresting a friend of Zimmerman's for underage drinking. According to the officer's sworn affadavit, he identified himself as a police officer and displayed his badge to Zimmerman, to which Zimmerman responded "I don't care who you are."

This is a clear-cut case. The felony assault charges were reduced to misdemeanors and Zimmerman was allowed into a pre-trial diversion program. Later, when Zimmerman applied to the police academy, he claimed that he didn't know the man he assaulted was a police officer.

 

[johnny karate]

I must have missed something here, I though the comparison was between a twitter about taking a swing at a bus driver, and the other that myspace page?

I was talking about the Youtube videos from the start. The Twitter nonsense is of even less significance since it wasn't even Trayvon who made the comment about the bus driver.

Zimmerman's 'history of criminal and violent behavior' becomes less relevant when we consider the outcome of Zimmerman on the ground with a broken nose and being whacked in the head screaming for help for significant amount of time before he uses the gun.

Yes, and if there were evidence any of that happened, you might have a point.

Now that might have happened because GZ attacked TM barehanded, however being as the evidence of TM being there after he could have easily been home if he'd wanted to avoid the encounter kinda suggests that TM may well have initiated the meeting.

And Zimmerman following Martin instead of just waiting in his car for the police to arrive kinda suggests he initiated the meeting.

So does the fact that George Zimmerman had called police and knew they would be there soon, as well as that he didn't use the gun until he'd taken several head shots, suggesting to me that if he did attack TM under those conditions it would have had to have been in blind rage, which doesn't strike me as all that likely frankly.

There's no evidence Zimmerman took "several head shots". And that you've manufactured some scenario in which Zimmerman must have been in a blind rage, only to then to dismiss it based on it being unlikely isn't a particularly compelling argument.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the 'assault of a police officer' amount to him pushing someone in defense of someone else? The police officer being off-duty and in a bar or something?

Zimmerman assaulted a police officer. That is a factual statement. That you wish to mitigate it is of little interest to me.

That was in hopes in might be generally helpful. But if you want to know why I chose those, use the framework of Bayes to determine probabilities because Boolean logic doesn't work with people because they're too damn complicated. Put what you know of the person, (starting with the benefit of the doubt--a few instances of something in a lifetime doesn't move you to absolutes) the situation they're in and employ game theory to explore possible options and outcomes. I also included an example of a methodology already in use on this specific subject with additional data to collect and I blew one link (I do this! Feel free to jump up and down point your finger and celebrate!) and included something that I'd been perusing for another thread I'd been following. I meant to include this as without it you're lost before you start. Oh, I probably should have added this as well as once it is identified it can be very useful in a number of ways as well, but nevermind about that. The last is what I happen to think is an effective methodology for skepticism but it's not particularly in vogue in this day and age I guess.

Incidentally I already supported those arguments in previous posts, those links were just scratching the surface of what can be helpful in analyzing something like this. There's no 'proof' there, nor can there be, but I suspect the ones who employ some, all, or related ones with get to the answer quicker, because this one is real easy and what's more interesting at this juncture is why people still believe it, and how it will turn out. As for how I would apply them, take the data posted in this thread and keep in mind while the skittles and tea lower the possibility (as does the evidence that suggests GZ might have just had it with hoodied teens in his neighborhood and be more likely to misinterpret TM's behavior) the other indications I've already mentioned and do not need to belabor must also be taken into account thus I do not think it fair to assume GZ was lying or mistaken when he called police to report suspicious behavior.

That's an awful lot of words for you to simply say that you don't apply the same standards in assessing Zimmerman's behavior as you did with Martin.

 

[Cylinder]

If true, this means there is no documentation that Zimmerman broke his nose until the following day.

Yea - he was too busy fully cooperating with the police investigation of the shooting without asserting his right to consult an attorney to have his injuries properly treated.

 

[Kaosium]

You're wrong. The police officer was an undercover alcohol agent arresting a friend of Zimmerman's for underage drinking. According to the officer's sworn affadavit, he identified himself as a police officer and displayed his badge to Zimmerman, to which Zimmerman responded "I don't care who you are."

This is a clear-cut case. The felony assault charges were reduced to misdemeanors and Zimmerman was allowed into a pre-trial diversion program. Later, when Zimmerman applied to the police academy, he claimed that he didn't know the man he assaulted was a police officer.

What significance do you place on this?

 

[johnny karate]

What significance would you place on the possibility that despite the fact that he'd been seen with a bloody nose, had told cops he'd been hit in the nose and that it was discovered broken the next day that it might not have been broken in the fight but sometime between when it was hit and discovered the next day? Wouldn't you think the head shots he took and the bloody nose itself would be enough evidence of his story that there would be little point in pretending the nose was broken during the fight if it wasn't? What purpose would that serve?

You keep mentioning these "head shots". Do you have some information that the rest of us aren't privy to?

As far as the significance, he was checked out by EMTs on the scene. They would have examined his bloody nose. They would have been able to determine if it was broken. It's damn strange if they didn't.

And do I really have to spell out for you the motivation Zimmerman would have for making his injuries appear worse than the actually were? All that separates him from serious prison time is his self-defense claim. The more severe his injuries, the more plausible that claim becomes.

 

[johnny karate]

Yea - he was too busy fully cooperating with the police investigation of the shooting without asserting his right to consult an attorney to have his injuries properly treated.

He was checked out by EMTs on the scene. Do you imagine an EMT is unable to diagnose a broken nose?

 

[curi0us]

Hold the phone... was anyone else aware of this?

Because I sure wasn't.

If true, this means there is no documentation that Zimmerman broke his nose until the following day.

I think Rare Truth might have a point. A very significant one.

I'm unclear on the point. Are you suggesting GZ broke his own nose in the time between the EMT's treating him and him going to the hospital?

 

[EdG]

let's compare that to someone arrested once prior to this incident ... which of those people has a problem following the rules/laws ?

You're comparing a juvenile being suspended from high school to an adult being arrested for felony assault on a police officer and concluding that the high school suspension is the more serious offense? Wow!