General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

truethat · May 2, 2012

Clayton Moore said:
Why do you think those lies are being told? Why do people lie to begin with?

Are you familiar with fabrications and lies told "witnesses" at the war trials?

Most of the poll voters voted by political correctness as you probably did.

Why do I think they lied? To make it somewhat easier for others to understand what was going on. I think the human mind has a hard time understanding torture and suffering. Even the testimony could not equate what really happened. And I think you should consider that in your own reactions. You live in a very comfortable world. I would imagine you have not been tortured and have not suffered so you experience a sort of cognitive dissonance with regard to this history.

One thing that is nice about being a total rebel on this site, is that you cannot accuse me of going along with the crowd in a sense of political correctness. If I was politically correct I would not even engage you in the first place.

I wrote something some time ago about my own experiences with suffering.

When people talk about abused children there is often this suggestion that being abused will create a monster. It is a sort of distancing from the capacity of evil in man. And it’s been difficult for me to sit by in silence because to argue the point would be to put myself out there with my experiences, which when I have done this in the past, has caused a sort of pity of me which is not very comfortable.

In sitting in silence I feel that I don’t contribute what I should to the conversation. But also for many years I have experienced a great deal of worry and fear in not quite comprehending how it was that I managed as a child to get through the experiences of my upbringing without flinching in my resolve. It seems almost unreal to think that I had at such a young age the temerity to withstand these influences and yet I remember never bending; always knowing what was right and what was wrong even if everyone else in my family told me otherwise. I often felt like Steve McQueen’s character in The Great Escape.

To suffice it simply I was raised in family of six children by an alcoholic mother who I would suggest had schizophrenia perhaps, but definitely narcissistic personality disorder. In a typical family of alcoholism one child is usually singled out as a scapegoat and that was me. My father was basically a man with no self esteem and a passive withdrawing person who hid from his problems and escaped through work and dismantling electronics in a room in the attic to be left alone.

My mother had delusions of grandeur and was well read. For example she read us children Kafka’s Metamorphosis one Easter. She was obsessed with biblical interpretation when I was young. And so she viewed suffering as something that could be used to teach. Aside from this she was a violent abusive and crazy drunk. I always got in trouble for confronting her with her actions and not standing by when she was abusive towards one of my younger siblings. This was considered disrespectful. Beatings were a regular occurrence. But those physical attacks are barely in my memory. They don't hold a candle to my solitary confinement.

There was a ritual of my “banishment” from the rest of my family from the time that I was 10 years old until about the age of 15 when I escaped. And it’s odd that I and my older sister refer to our leaving home as “escaping from the house” but this is what it felt like. During the school year it was not so bad really. But in the summer it was terrible.

My ritual was to be sent to basement and ignored. And that’s basically it. In the basement I had a pillow and blanket and I slept on the floor and that was it. In the basement we had a toilet and an industrial sink so I could get water easily. But I couldn’t get food. One particular summer I was banished in the basement for the entire summer vacation. No one in my family was allowed to talk to me and so at times they would forget to feed me for days and days.

It is strange to recall those times in the basement because there was so much fear involved because of my age. In some ways there were things that would still be hard today, physical abuse, hunger and darkness at night with bugs crawling. In other ways there were things that I see were manifestations of my own fear, the fear in the darkness, the loneliness and feelings of persecution, the worry, the unknown, the shame.

Until you have experienced something like this you don't understand at all. You can't imagine what it is like to watch a beam of light on a wall for hours, being too tired to even move because of such hunger pains and depression. Your depression leaves you after a while, your outrage goes as well, you fall down into a well of lonliness and just continue, you do not live, you only continue.

Until you have experienced fear like this you don't understand at all. Your heart becomes weakened from panic and terror, terror is very hard to explain to people who have not experienced it. You want to come out of your skin. You go on and on and on. You do not understand. You try not to understand, sleep becomes a way of life that can save you. But then when you are not allowed to sleep you exist in a cold painful surrealism that is never ever able to be explained.

In my essay I also wrote this

I have realized that suffering is something that is very hard to explain to people who have not really suffered; especially not an imprisoning suffering. There is always a sort of skepticism that can’t accept that people could really be this cruel. It was not until I read Victor Frankl’s, “Man’s Search for Meaning” did I ever find someone that I felt truly understood what the experience was like. And in his work he suggested something very important me personally,

If a prisoner felt that he could no longer endure the realities of camp life, he found a way out in his mental life - an invaluable opportunity to dwell in the spiritual domain, the one that the SS were unable to destroy. Spiritual life strengthened the prisoner, helped him adapt, and thereby improved his chances of survival.

”

Man in Search of Meaning, p. 123

I do not compare my experiences to the Holocaust. But I know that my experiences are rarely understood. I hardly ever try to discuss them with anyone because it is incomprehensible to most. And over the years I've had conversations with my mother because she never really saw it the way it went down. First she doesn't remember most of what she did because of blackouts. Second she blames the other members of my family including my siblings for not feeding me or bringing me my needs. She doesn't to this day understand the kind of terror she inflicted in our family. She reminds me a lot of Jim Jones. She doesn't want to admit any of it. My family also wants to let it go because it is very painful. In some ways I think I am lucky to have been banished because she was equally as cruel to all of them.

And to your question why did these lies happen. Well in some ways when I've recounted these times with my family members, we each have different interpretations. For example I mix up incidents that happened when I was 10 or when I was 14. And I don't always get the details right. It is only when someone sits down and measures it out with with am I able to sort it out correctly. But having "escaped" I don't want to do that. I want to exist in the joy of life that I never thought would ever be mine.

You might deny my whole experience based on the misplacement of dates, names and rooms. You could challenge the veracity of it all. But I know what happen and so do my family members. But even they do not understand the depths of despair in which I existed. To them I was simply down in the basement. They didn't experience the eerie misery. They don't understand. When I say I was in the basement it doesn't convey the way the unfinished walls leaked water all night. The way I'd wake in the morning and pick slugs off my legs. The way the darkness was constant except for two small windows in the back. The way in the winter months the cold was so unbearable. The way I waited and waited and went on and on in boredom and in such loneliness. It is impossible to recreate in words those experiences.

You need to ask yourself why the minutiae matters to you more than the devastation and anguish. Why those details count more than the evidence that piles up in front of you like so many bodies.

It is as if your reality hinges on it not being true in order to justify your moving forward in the world on an even keel. But those who have experienced know that it must always be remembered even if it is not understood or remembered perfectly. Because life doesn't exist on an even keel and people are capable of being apathetic co conspirators in that dark dark place. We must not shy away from the truth of cruelty that exists in all humans. We must not be afraid to admit it. Because this is the only way to stop it.

Why do I believe them? Because I understand some of what they have tried to explain. Even if they can't get all the details right, their eyes know, their hearts explain it to me silently. I understand because I remember. And those with whom I have had conversations are the only ones I've met who understand me as well.

Dcdrac · May 2, 2012

what is the real Agenda of Holocaust Deniers

The more I read of the holocaust deiners spurious facts and history the more convinced I am they have an agenda that has nothing to with the truth.

Now while I am willing to entertain the idea 911 truthers are sincere on the whole but totally mistaken I can not feel the same about holocaust deniers.

Nick Terry · May 2, 2012

Dcdrac said:
The more I read of the holocaust deiners spurious facts and history the more convinced I am they have an agenda that has nothing to with the truth.

Now while I am willing to entertain the idea 911 truthers are sincere on the whole but totally mistaken I can not feel the same about holocaust deniers.

This'll be merged into the General thread, without a doubt.

bynmdsue · May 2, 2012

To justify a truly final solution to the Jewish problem.

Hans · May 2, 2012

To make Hitler look like a nice guy and National Socialism a viable political solution

or

Trolling at a very disturbing level

Clayton Moore · May 2, 2012

TSR said:
For the same reasons as for absolutely every other historical event.

*you're* the one who holds the Holocaust to a different standard.

Well, in your case, it appears that the reason is to be able to pretend that your irrational hatred of Jews is somehow justified, and the lies are simply a means to that end.

Yes.

None of which changed in the slightest the *facts* of the matter.

Now, who is it that you claim lied to the witnesses, and what (other than your desperate and impotent need to deny history) do you offer to substantiate this accusation?

Are you familiar with fabrications and lies told BY "witnesses" at the war trials?

FTFY

Dcdrac · May 2, 2012

Clayton Moore said:
Are you familiar with fabrications and lies told BY "witnesses" at the war trials?

FTFY

Are you familiar with the stacks of priamry evdience hard factual documents that it all happened?

Have you read them yourself?

Have you been to the villa at Wanasee near Berlin where a lot of these documents are?

have you read the transcripts of the Nueremburg trials?

what primary non interset historical documentary evidence have you yourself read to back up ay of your claims?

I have been to Wanasee, Belsen and Dachau.

Have you?

TSR · May 2, 2012

Clayton Moore said:
Are you familiar with fabrications and lies told BY "witnesses" at the war trials?

FTFY

No, you fixed that for *you*, not me, since what I quoted was exactly what you wrote.

Can't even be honest about *that*, can you?

And no -- why don't you *prove* lies on the part of any of the witnesses during the war crimes trials?

That means offer more than just your personal opinion of their credibility, since you have demonstrated above (and elsewhere) that you have none of your own.

Let me us small words so that you are clear: if you say man tell lie, says sky is red, you must prove sky was not red when man said it was.

Shall we start with oh, say, Pery Broad?

And put it in the proper thread...

TSR · May 2, 2012

From the "open" poll thread, where it shouldn't be anyway:

Clayton Moore said:
Are you familiar with fabrications and lies told BY "witnesses" at the war trials?

FTFY

No, you fixed that for *you*, not me, since what I quoted was exactly what you wrote.

Can't even be honest about *that*, can you?

And no -- why don't you *prove* lies on the part of any of the witnesses during the war crimes trials?

That means offer more than just your personal opinion of their credibility, since you have demonstrated above (and elsewhere) that you have none of your own.

Let me us small words so that you are clear: if you say man tell lie, says sky is red, you must prove sky was not red when man said it was.

Shall we start with oh, say, Pery Broad?

And put it in the proper thread...

TSR · May 2, 2012

According to Harold Covington, writing as Winston Smith in "On Revisionism":

... the real purpose of Holocaust revisionism is to make National Socialism an acceptable political alternative again.

So we have three branches, each equally fruitless:

"The Holocaust did happened, but them uppity Jews deserved it, so we need to pretend otherwise so we can finish the job this time."

Eddie Dane · May 2, 2012

I struggle to see why the credibility of National Socialism hinges on the Holocaust.

Come to think about it, the genocide part is pretty much the only thing they didn't royally screw up.

It was a totalitarian system, with a dysfunctional economy and an ideology that shouted it's supposed invincibility from the rooftops.
Germany's intelligentsia fled this retarded vortex of stupidity and violence, including almost everyone smart enough to develop the atom bomb.

Then, after much posing, huffing, puffing and big-mouthing, it marched it's army into the world's largest country. Most of which is thirty degrees below zero in summer.
Rather predictably, this army then ran out of supplies, froze solid and got blown to bits.
After Adolph's brilliant plan had ran it's course, Germany was in rubble, partitioned and a good portion of it's female population raped.

The only good thing about it, -the uniforms- have been safely preserved in BDSM subculture.

The Nazi's were widely regarded as history's biggest cock-up, until the introduction of New Coke in 1985.

Chaos · May 2, 2012

Eddie Dane said:
I struggle to see why the credibility of National Socialism hinges on the Holocaust.

Come to think about it, the genocide part is pretty much the only thing they didn't royally screw up.

It was a totalitarian system, with a dysfunctional economy and an ideology that shouted it's supposed invincibility from the rooftops.
Germany's intelligentsia fled this retarded vortex of stupidity and violence, including almost everyone smart enough to develop the atom bomb.

Then, after much posing, huffing, puffing and big-mouthing, it marched it's army into the world's largest country. Most of which is thirty degrees below zero in summer.
Rather predictably, this army then ran out of supplies, froze solid and got blown to bits.
After Adolph's brilliant plan had ran it's course, Germany was in rubble, partitioned and a good portion of it's female population raped.

The only good thing about it, -the uniforms- have been safely preserved in BDSM subculture.

The Nazi's were widely regarded as history's biggest cock-up, until the introduction of New Coke in 1985.

Two things to keep in mind here:

1) The Holocaust is THE biggest crime of the Nazis; everything may be worse, or not, than what others (*cough* Stalin *cough*) did, but those are matters of degree, whereas the Holocaust is an entirely different category of crime. If the Holocaust were gone, the Nazis would essentially be just another regime among many.
2) If the Deniers were to establish the Holocaust as an Allied/Jewish/Communist/whatever hoax, they´d get their foot in the door with regards what else about the "supposed" crimes of the Nazis is supposedly also an enemy hoax. Plus, crying "hoax" lets Deniers portray Nazis as victims rather than perpetrators.

Border Reiver · May 2, 2012

Clayton Moore said:
Are you familiar with fabrications and lies told BY "witnesses" at the war trials?

FTFY

Would these be the ones told by those infamous liars known as "the accused?"

You know the ones I'm talking about, the ones who passed the legislation stripping persons of a particular religious background of their citizenship, the ones who planned the camps, the clearances, the executions, etc. The ones who planned and executed the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto, etc.

The ones who tried to hide their own failure behind "I was only following orders."

The ones who were convicted on the basis of the documents they created or were created by their subordinates and by their own testimony.

Those liars?

Because if you know about other liars at the Nuremberg Trials or other trials of those convicted of Crimes Against Humanity at subsequent trials, I'm going to ask you the following:

a. Who (names);
b. What lies are you talking about; and
c. What evidence is there that shows they are lying?

And where is your outrage against the nasty Axis soldiers, sailors and airmen that caused the deaths of hundreds of US servicemen?

LemmyCaution · May 2, 2012

TSR said:
Let me us small words so that you are clear: if you say man tell lie, says sky is red, you must prove sky was not red when man said it was.

And that the witness knew what he or she was reporting was incorrect and reported contrary to the facts anyway. An error, an observation based on one's point of view or limited knowledge, a guess: these are not lies, even though they may be mistaken statements.

Clayton Moore · May 2, 2012

Dcdrac said:
have you read the transcripts of the Nueremburg trials?

Yes.

You didn't notice all the fabrications?

You do know Ike, Winston, and de Gaulle never mentioned the foundation/KEYSTONE of the Holocaust, gas chambers, in their post war writings?

You do know that many respected Americans spoke out against the legality and integrity of the Nuremberg trials farce?

http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/blog/fester/american-nuremberg-judge-rubbishes-nuremberg-trials

Glaring Evidence of the Farce that was the Nuremberg Trials - Soviet Prosecutors Convicted the Germans of the Katyn Forest Massacre

http://exposing-the-holocaust-hoax-...09/10/glaring-evidence-of-farce-that-was.html

You've done all that research and you can, with good conscience, vote as you did? That is scary.

Border Reiver · May 2, 2012

Again Clayton, I ask you for the following - not a handwave and a shifting of the goalpost (ref to post war writings):

a. Who (names of the witness);
b. What lies are you talking about; and
c. What evidence is there that shows they are lying?

All you've got otherwise is what we in the legal world refer to as "sour grapes"

TSR · May 2, 2012

Clayton Moore said:
You do know Ike, Winston, and de Gaulle never mentioned the foundation/KEYSTONE of the Holocaust, gas chambers, in their post war writings?

You've been spanked on this before: Which of these people were in a position to have seen a gas chamber?

They also didn't mention the Battle of the Bulge -- did that not happen either?

Clayton Moore said:
You do know that many respected Americans spoke out against the legality and integrity of the Nuremberg trials farce?

No, we know that a *few* did.

For example:

Clayton Moore said:
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/blog/fester/american-nuremberg-judge-rubbishes-nuremberg-trials

Your own source here cites Wennerstrum as judge in "some of" the Subsequent Trials.

That is only if it is true that "one" == "some". But then, apparently "one" == "many" to you so...

And before you get off track, what did Wennerstrum have to say about lies told by witnesses?

Clayton Moore said:
http://exposing-the-holocaust-hoax-...09/10/glaring-evidence-of-farce-that-was.html

Nothing there about Nuremberg witnesses lying either, altho I must admit not to have clicked every last link on that page -- perhaps you could ask whomever spoon fed it to you to be a bit more precise?

Clayton Moore said:
You've done all that research and you can, with good conscience, vote as you did? That is scary.

No, what's scary is that you continue to post lies and believe no one else sees it.

Clayton Moore · May 2, 2012

LemmyCaution said:
And that the witness knew what he or she was reporting was incorrect and reported contrary to the facts anyway. An error, an observation based on one's point of view or limited knowledge, a guess: these are not lies, even though they may be mistaken statements.

Like saying there were gas chambers in Germany?

Or that the Germans were guilty of the Katyn Forest Massacre?

Or there were steam chambers?

Or there chambers where the people stood in water and were electrocuted?

Or babies were thrown into fire while alive?

Or babies were smashed into walls?

Or babies were thrown atop people already packed tightly in gas chambers?

Or babies were thrown into the air and bayoneted on the way down to amuse German guards?

TSR · May 2, 2012

Clayton Moore said:
Like saying there were gas chambers in Germany?

There were.

Clayton Moore said:
Or that the Germans were guilty of the Katyn Forest Massacre?