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Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

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I already clarified that. :D

But seriously, what posts did you read? I thought he was spot on about how trustworthy Z should be in post #1 and then how you were spreading hearsay with M, even though Z's history is much more on record in post #2.

I realize your M post was just a joke response to his very serious and accurate Z post though.

But he immediately pointed out why it was a flawed comparison, and what do you do? You put him on ignore!
Point taken, I had a suspicion he is someone else here, that may have made me too rash, I will re-review and have removed ignore. The last thing I want catch myself doing is putting someone on ignore just because they disagree with me.
 
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Katie,

Let's forget the issue of what is and isn't going to get into court. Isn't not wanting to know about the history of both of these people sort of like wanting to bury our heads in the sand? I can't help but wonder if the reason some people don't think TM's school history should come out is they are afraid it might actually paint a picture of TM that fits with what GZ reports happened?

I do understand the attitude that we should "not blame the victim" but this is quite a bit different than a situation for instance where a woman is raped and someone tries to suggest that the number of sex partners she had is relevant (it's not). In this instance, GZ is asserting that he is the victim acting in self-defense and that TM was the attacker. So we actually have two different sides each claiming they are the victim and the other was the attacker.

That said, how relevant all of this past behavior is is impossible to say, and it may also bias us. But as someone who won't be sitting on the jury and doesn't have to worry about that, I'd like to know. Whether I have the legal right to know is another question, so who knows if the school records will ever come out.

I agree that we should not focus merely on admissibility. I tend to overly focus on the legal aspect of things (not that I think you were calling me out or anything). I try not to do that, but it's kind of hopeless. I rationalize it by telling myself that it keeps me out of trouble to stick to what I know something about. :)

But at the same time, there is a reason certain evidence of the parties' past actions is excluded at trial, and I think it is worth evaluating, in a non-legal context, how good that reason is. After all, one of the chief purposes of the rules of evidence is to make trials more effective at determining the facts. Some rules might seem arbitrary, and some rules admittedly exclude evidence with at least some relevance (and sometimes significant relevance). But there is always a reason, and it always has to do with trying to make sure the jury makes a decision on the proper basis. So while we should consider everything that is relevant when outside of court, considering what would be inadmissible at trial - and, more importantly, why - can facilitate greater introspection into our reasoning and a more critical analysis of the evidence.

As you point out, knowledge of prior bad acts of a party can bias us (that is, it can affect our conclusions more than, or in ways other than, is logically warranted). We are not a court of law, so there is nothing wrong with examining the past of both parties. But in doing so, we need to keep in mind the very same considerations that determine whether such evidence would get into court. Not because those are the standards for admissibility in court, but because the standards for admissibility are based on weighing, on the one hand, the strength of the evidence in terms of rational persuasion, and, on the other hand, the tendency of the information to be inflammatory and to influence our opinions unduly.

For instance, if we were talking about past incidents in which Martin started fights or otherwise instigated violence, then that would be so highly relevant that its tendency to create bias would be outweighed. But the possession of a suspected burglary tool, while also tending to create bias against a party by reflecting negatively on general character, does not have much, if any, probative value on the question of whether Martin jumped Zimmerman.

So I agree that we, who are not on the jury, should want all possible facts. Only then can we decide what is relevant, and what is mostly just prejudicial (even if very slightly relevant). Those are judgments that can only made in light of the totality of the circumstances of a given case. But we should approach that task with an awareness of the potential pitfalls.
 
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Freddy, thanks for taking the time to write such a great post.

For instance, if we were talking about past incidents in which Martin started fights or otherwise instigated violence, then that would be so highly relevant that its tendency to create bias would be outweighed.
That's what I'm especially interested in. On a personal scale I find marijuana use of 0 relevance, burglary tools of minor relevance though possibly higher if we were to find further evidence of a history of it; any past incident of violence would be potentially more relevant. And of course even then it could amount to nothing more than a youthful and totally irrelevant fist fight. On the other hand swinging at a teacher or bus driver, or beating someone badly would be more relevant if it existed.

And before someone says it, I'm interested in GZ's history too.
 
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Freddy, thanks for taking the time to write such a great post.


That's what I'm especially interested in. On a personal scale I find marijuana use of 0 relevance, burglary tools of minor relevance though possibly higher if we were to find further evidence of a history of it; any past incident of violence would be potentially more relevant. And of course even then it could amount to nothing more than a youthful and totally irrelevant fist fight. On the other hand swinging at a teacher or bus driver, or beating someone badly would be more relevant if it existed.

And before someone says it, I'm interested in GZ's history too.

Always glad to help. Help myself procrastinate from studying, that is. :)
 
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Point taken, I had a suspicion he is someone else here, that may have made me too rash, I will re-review and have removed ignore. The last thing I want catch myself doing is putting someone on ignore just because they disagree with me.

Good, that's why I like you.

I think I over-reacted in my reaction a bit too! I just wanted to make sure a new person feels welcome.
 
I agree on O'Mara. I have been very impressed with pretty much everything he has done, from his public statements to his performance at the bond hearing. He appears to be a consummate professional.

Yea, you know Rionda feels the waters rising when he makes an absurd motion like this:

The State of Florida, by and through the undersigned Assistant State Attorney, pursuant to Rule 3.220(l)(1), Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure, and Rule 4-3.6 of the Rules Regulating the Florida Bar, moves this Honorable Court to enter an order prohibiting any attorney involved with the prosecution or defense of this cause, any personnel employed or affiliated with said attorneys, and law enforcement personnel from making or releasing any extrajudicial statements to the media about the following: facts of this case, any evidence or lack thereof in this case, the credibility or the lack of credibilty of any potential witnesses, opinions about guilt or innocence, and any appropriate or anticipated penalty.

Of course, this is all well within the rules, but what's left out is that the climate of extrajudicial statements has already been set by the prosecution team - at least until the point where they actually have to produce evidence of their claims.

This case is really beginning to trouble me. The state has failed to even provide prima facie claims for what they have charged. Having been very content with feeding the media through "family spokesmen" up and to the point where evidence has to be produced, they suddenly cry foul?
 
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Wow, that would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. So after spoon feeding the media for weeks, for the first time GZ has someone competent enough to provide an alternative view in the MOST professional way, and NOW the prosecution wants to stop everyone from talking to the media. All the while of course Crump and company will b able to lobby the media 24/7, since I assume a gag order won't apply to them. Sickening beyond words.
 
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Katie,

Let's forget the issue of what is and isn't going to get into court. Isn't not wanting to know about the history of both of these people sort of like wanting to bury our heads in the sand? I can't help but wonder if the reason some people don't think TM's school history should come out is they are afraid it might actually paint a picture of TM that fits with what GZ reports happened?

I do understand the attitude that we should "not blame the victim" but this is quite a bit different than a situation for instance where a woman is raped and someone tries to suggest that the number of sex partners she had is relevant (it's not). In this instance, GZ is asserting that he is the victim acting in self-defense and that TM was the attacker. So we actually have two different sides each claiming they are the victim and the other was the attacker.

That said, how relevant all of this past behavior is is impossible to say, and it may also bias us. But as someone who won't be sitting on the jury and doesn't have to worry about that, I'd like to know. Whether I have the legal right to know is another question, so who knows if the school records will ever come out.

Except that one person set out with a gun, and one didn't.
 
Always glad to help. Help myself procrastinate from studying, that is. :)

Freddy, thanks for both your posts. I understand the whys and why nots, it's just very uncomfortable for me to be picking apart the short history of a 17 yo. I did some pretty stupid stuff in my teens and I'm glad some of it has never seen the light of day.

Right now, I'm mostly reading along here because I find myself way too emotionally involved in this case. I have always been a "see both sides" kinda gal and I'm having a hard time doing that here. I called the wish fairy and told her I wished this had never happened. Y'all know how that turned out.

Crump has hooked himself onto the Martins and shows no signs of letting go. The Martins probably don't know which side is up right now as I can't imagine the grief of losing their son. They want justice but that won't happen they way they want it to.

For me personally, many of you are often a voice a reason and your posts draw me away from the raw emotions of this case. That's difficult because I think this case has left many of us raw to the bone. So much pain, no chance at all of a happy ending. TM can't come back. GZs life is ruined, regardless of the outcome. As I've said before, there are no winners here.
 
From the George Zimmerman Legal Case website:

The Responsible Use of Social Media in a Legal Defense

We Will Not Comment On The Character of Trayvon Martin, His Family, or His Supporters

Whatever the outcome of this case, and however it is framed by either party, what cannot be denied that a young man lost his life, his family is in mourning, and people around the country are showing their support — and they have our respect and sympathy. While certain details regarding Martin may become part of trial, they will never be a part of our online discussion, and we will aggressively moderate comments on our page on Facebook, and discourage others from making disparaging comments.
 
For me personally, many of you are often a voice a reason and your posts draw me away from the raw emotions of this case. That's difficult because I think this case has left many of us raw to the bone. So much pain, no chance at all of a happy ending. TM can't come back. GZs life is ruined, regardless of the outcome. As I've said before, there are no winners here.

GZ seems to have quite a fan base out there. He made a few dollars from that web site.
 
You keep saying that but it's not a fact. We have no evidence at this time so it's all speculation.

I was mildly joking, of course. :) <<< see that?

My post was a jab at the insinuation regarding "setting out" with a gun.

I sometimes "set out" with a gun. So far, I have yet to fire at anything remotely approaching a human being.

Say, why do we have smileys anyway?

Absolutely no one seems to pay any attention to them.
 
All the evidence is that TM's initial response was to run away from trouble. You may dispute what comes next, but you can't dispute he tried to avoid a confrontation and not injure.

And if TM hid and waited for GZ to re-appear, instead of continuing home, and then confronted him, and then sucker punched him...

Few would call that "trying to avoid a confrontation and not injure"...

The only side of the story we are going to get for sure is GZ's. I think we already have a pretty good idea of that story as I posted earlier.

If it can't be broken, it will stand.

Right now, it does not look like there will be any evidence to break GZ's basic story.

That can certainly change, of course.

I think what we are down to is analyzing GZ's judgement call on what to do when TM was beating him up. That will always be debatable, I think.

I think the prosecution's basic case will be that GZ did not have enough cause to shoot TM, even though TM was beating him up.

That will be a tough sell to a fair jury, imo.
 
But seriously, what posts did you read? I thought he was spot on about how trustworthy Z should be in post #1
Spot on ? 2 ex-fiances ... and didn't you call me out about the alcohol versus anger class for the pre-trial diversion ? How is that 'spot-on' ?
and then how you were spreading hearsay with M, even though Z's history is much more on record in post #2.

I realize your M post was just a joke response to his very serious and accurate Z post though.
 
I agree that we should not focus merely on admissibility. I tend to overly focus on the legal aspect of things (not that I think you were calling me out or anything). I try not to do that, but it's kind of hopeless. I rationalize it by telling myself that it keeps me out of trouble to stick to what I know something about. :)
...
So I agree that we, who are not on the jury, should want all possible facts. Only then can we decide what is relevant, and what is mostly just prejudicial (even if very slightly relevant). Those are judgments that can only made in light of the totality of the circumstances of a given case. But we should approach that task with an awareness of the potential pitfalls.

Agreed, good post.

And unlike freddy, I don't know about the law, and am not approaching this necessarily from a legal point of view, but more in line with the second paragraph above.
 
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