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Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

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So they are saying this is to protect the witnesses? Maybe let it die down a little? Gawd what an ugly situation. :(

Yes, media frenzy is a real and crazy thing. My wife went to grad school with the sister of the NIU shooter, she was out of town when it happened, there was a friend watching her and her partner's house. This friend was woken at three am by media people wanting an interview.
 
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That doesn't match TM's GF version though. Critical to your version is TM hiding for an extended period of time which the girl friend never mentions. She says first TM runs "trying to lose" GZ and is successful with no mention of hiding. Then she says TM is "walking" home and says,"oh, he's right behind me. He's right behind me again." She then tells TM to run and he says he's not going to and he is just going to "walk fast". Her description is of TM being pursued trying to get away and not of a TM hiding being worried about a person with a flashlight looking for him. TM also would have been hiding for a while as he initially runs at 7:12 and the fight isn't till 7:16, that seems like a long time for TM's girlfriend to have no idea what TM is actually doing.

I also have a bit of a 'live by the GF, Die by the GF' feeling. If the GF connects all the dots, none of the dots say TM was hiding for approx 4 minutes.

I'm disinclined to believe TM hid, but obviously that isn't something I can easily justify with clear evidence.
 
I think MO'M is handling this the right way. He is asking for protection of all the witnesses. I happen to agree that their identities should be protected. They didn't ask to get caught up in all this.

That's why I also think it would be nice if the name of TM's gf wasn't posted anywhere. She deserves protection also.

I agree on O'Mara. I have been very impressed with pretty much everything he has done, from his public statements to his performance at the bond hearing. He appears to be a consummate professional.
 
I've learned so much from this thread about how to judge people. Two can play at this game:

1. Trayvon Martin ...

Where are the school records? Oh, wait. You're relying on hearsay. The principal refused to release the records, citing privacy. Where is the arrest record? Oh, wait. Martin wasn't arrested for burglary or any other crime.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: yourself. Natural Born Skeptic, eh?
 
You forgot the kicker though: Anything Trayvon Martin says should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

Hilarious. Perhaps you or Natural Born Skeptic should be his pschic medium, as you both seem to "know" so much about what a dead person did and thought.
 
Where are the school records? Oh, wait. You're relying on hearsay. The principal refused to release the records, citing privacy.
Why does a dead person require privacy ?

I'm all for seeing the school records , how about you ?
 
Why would we need to see the records of a dead young man? He's not on trial here.

So that is a no answer for the first question and a no for the second from you.

No, TM is not on trial, but it would appear that a jury may be asked to judge his actions none the less.

Tell you what - please tell me how knowing events that happened in GZ life 7 years ago is totally relevant, but knowing events that happened in TM life last year are not relevant.
 
So that is a no answer for the first question and a no for the second from you.

No, TM is not on trial, but it would appear that a jury may be asked to judge his actions none the less.

Tell you what - please tell me how knowing events that happened in GZ life 7 years ago is totally relevant, but knowing events that happened in TM life last year are not relevant.
The standards for what does and doesn't get admitted at trial have been posted repeatedly... the fact that you choose to ignore them is irrelevant.
 
The standards for what does and doesn't get admitted at trial have been posted repeatedly... the fact that you choose to ignore them is irrelevant.

I don't suppose it occurred to you that I wasn't speaking about what will or will not be admitted legally, and it is your post that is irrelevant to my point.
 
I don't suppose it occurred to you that I wasn't speaking about what will or will not be admitted legally, and it is your post that is irrelevant to my point.
Riiiiight... So you specifically said 'a jury may be asked to judge his actions' , because you weren't talking about anything to do with what will or will not be admitted legally. :rolleyes:

You made no point, and this gossip-fest of wild speculations and CT level woo needs to be called for what it is.
 
Riiiiight... So you specifically said 'a jury may be asked to judge his actions' , because you weren't talking about anything to do with what will or will not be admitted legally. :rolleyes:

Obviously, me telling you that doesn't matter ... so, whatever.

You made no point, and this gossip-fest of wild speculations and CT level woo needs to be called for what it is.

Or otherwise ... Chaos .:rolleyes:
 
Why would we need to see the records of a dead young man? He's not on trial here.

The short answer is that we don't, but some explanation will be helpful. The rules of evidence do permit a defendant claiming self-defense to introduce evidence of the violent character of the victim. So to the extent that any of this stuff from Martin's past indicates a violent disposition (I don't think it does at all, for the record), it could be considered relevant. Certainly it would be relevant in public discussion if the evidence actually indicated that Martin was a violent person. However, even if Martin had a long history of starting fights, only opinion or reputation testimony would be admissible at trial for the purpose of showing that the victim had a violent disposition. No evidence of specific alleged acts is admissible for that purpose. Also, no extrinsic evidence would be allowed for that purpose anyway, so the records themselves could not be introduced under any circumstances. What the defense could do is call a witness to testify that Martin had a reputation in the community for being a violent person, or to testify that based on knowing Martin, his opinion is that Martin is a violent person.

But if the defendant introduces evidence that the victim had a violent disposition, that opens the door for the prosecution to introduce evidence both of the victim's peaceful character (to rebut the defense witness's testimony), and also testimony about the defendant's violent character. But again, only opinion or reputation testimony would be allowed; no evidence of specific acts, or extrinsic evidence (like documents or official records) would be admissible (at least under the rule in question) to suggest that Zimmerman has a violent disposition. (Prior convictions and other specific bad acts of the defendant are sometimes admissible under another rule, but only under limited circumstances and often only for limited purposes.) The danger of unfair prejudice is the reason for all of these limitations. The rules about this might seem a bit strange, and they do exclude evidence that is logically relevant. But the rules reflect the determination that some evidence, even though it meets the (very permissive) legal definition of relevance, is likely to be given disproportionate weight by a jury.

So this stuff from Martin's record is legally irrelevant, except perhaps to the extent that a past incident of maybe breaking into a locker at school makes it more believable that Martin was doing something particularly suspicious-looking on that fateful night in February. I don't see how that would work, since even given a past burglary (which I am assuming here for the sake of argument), the only way that would bear on Martin acting suspiciously that night would be if he were looking to commit a burglary, or some other crime. People who have committed a burglary in the past don't look any different from other people if they are just walking home. I see no reason to believe that Martin was looking to commit a burglary on his way home from the store (iced tea and skittles are not only ineffective burglary tools, they would be a hindrance).

If the suspicion was based on actions that were in fact innocuous (even if they might legitimately appear suspicious to someone on the lookout for burglars), then Martin's past trouble would be entirely irrelevant to whether Martin did anything that might warrant suspicion, or whether Zimmerman's suspicion was reasonable.

Zimmerman's testimony of exactly what he saw Martin do will be very informative regarding how reasonable (or not) his suspicion was. Just because we don't have that testimony yet is no reason to grasp at things like Martin getting in trouble at school, as if that can support the conclusion that Martin was likely acting in a suspicious manner. Any facts that reasonably bear on the likelihood of Martin reacting violently to being followed would be fair to bring up, but I haven't seen any such facts.

Remember, though, that as a matter of law the self-defense claim does not depend on whether Zimmerman's suspicion was reasonable. Practically speaking, though, it may affect the jury's opinion of Zimmerman's character, and that might affect their opinion of his credibility. But I think that would only have a major influence if Zimmerman totally bombs on the witness stand and comes across as an overt racist or something.
 
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I can't help but wonder if EdG isn't a troll that is already participating in this thread under another name, and is now posting under EdG to get more attention. Either way, the ignore feature is a wonderful friend...
 
He did pretty good in his his first few posts. EdG sounds quite reasonable and level-headed to me.

EdG, welcome to the forums!
 
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Why would we need to see the records of a dead young man? He's not on trial here.
Katie,

Let's forget the issue of what is and isn't going to get into court. Isn't not wanting to know about the history of both of these people sort of like wanting to bury our heads in the sand? I can't help but wonder if the reason some people don't think TM's school history should come out is they are afraid it might actually paint a picture of TM that fits with what GZ reports happened?

I do understand the attitude that we should "not blame the victim" but this is quite a bit different than a situation for instance where a woman is raped and someone tries to suggest that the number of sex partners she had is relevant (it's not). In this instance, GZ is asserting that he is the victim acting in self-defense and that TM was the attacker. So we actually have two different sides each claiming they are the victim and the other was the attacker.

That said, how relevant all of this past behavior is is impossible to say, and it may also bias us. But as someone who won't be sitting on the jury and doesn't have to worry about that, I'd like to know. Whether I have the legal right to know is another question, so who knows if the school records will ever come out.
 
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If you mean he hammered a nail into his own foot, yep :p.

I already clarified that. :D

But seriously, what posts did you read? I thought he was spot on about how trustworthy Z should be in post #1 and then how you were spreading hearsay with M, even though Z's history is much more on record in post #2.

I realize your M post was just a joke response to his very serious and accurate Z post though.

But he immediately pointed out why it was a flawed comparison, and what do you do? You put him on ignore! Not only that you accuse him of being a sock. I'm pretty sure it's against forum rules to accuse a fellow member of being a sock.
 
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