"Why not polygamous marriage?"

[epepke]

The better known models of polygamy (Saudi, Jeffs) come too close to the concept of chattel, for most Western politicians to support them.

Standard forms of monogamy are pretty close to chattel. Count the usages of "mine" in popular song, count how people are accused of "stealing" people from one another, and it's quite clear that the concept of ownership is shot through monogamy.

 

[Tatyana]

common law marriage isn't, according to the laws of my country, I'm legally to be regarded as married twice and I haven't booked a church yet


for polygamy, you need three people, for polygamous marriages, you need a religion

Are you saying common law exists in the UK or does not exist?

Just wondering as it isn't clear, but there is no such thing as common law marriage in the UK.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It would wreak havoc with insurance for one thing. If I marry 5 women and have 3 kids with each, that's 15 kids and 5 spouses an insurance company would have to cover under my premium. This could be covered with higher premiums so I guess this is more of a practical reason than a legal reason.

But one spouse and 18 kids is ok? This is a very poor argument and easily covered by not treating any number of kids as a family. So say family is spouse and up to four kids, any more and you pay extra.

I think SCOTUS had the same issues back when they ruled on polygamy in Reynolds v. United States. The best they could come up with was:



So, in effect, there really isn't any good legal reason.

Yep it is a feature of the degenerate races. Not the realm of proper Aryans. Or maybe you could find something not specifically couched in racist ideas.

 

[Tatyana]

If your country is England, based on your location info, then there is no such thing as common law marriage in the laws of your country.

"There is no such thing as ‘common law marriage’."

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/governmentcitizensandrights/yourrightsandresponsibilities/dg_10026937

Oops, I should have read further.

It is odd that so many people think that there is such a thing, but basically, unless you have provisions in a will or a living will, there are huge issues that arise if one partner dies in a couple that have just been living together.

It is something my partner and I should really address soon.

 

[RandFan]

I think it is not a contract and should not be treated as such.

I think the Earth is not a sphere and shouldn't be treated as such. Look, if it fits the definition then it simply is. What you think is irrelevant.

I have lots of obligations I never agreed to, like paying my taxes. Taxes are not a contract, unless you are broadening the term to lose all meaning.

? What on earth are you talking about?

I suspect you have some misunderstanding as to what a contract is. There are two primary usages of contract.

1. An agreement entered into voluntarily by at least two parties with the intention of establishing a legal obligation. No more. No less.
2. The rights and legal obligation one inherits due to citizenship or other social ties (see social contract theory).

Marriage is of the former and taxes are an obligation inherent to social contract theory.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Standard forms of monogamy are pretty close to chattel. Count the usages of "mine" in popular song, count how people are accused of "stealing" people from one another, and it's quite clear that the concept of ownership is shot through monogamy.

Oh come on spousal rape has been illegal for twenty years.

 

[RandFan]

It would wreak havoc with insurance for one thing.

It could yes. Of course there are possible remedies. The state could recognize the marriage of the second spouse without conferring insurance rights. I'm not sure if that is possible with our current legal system though and would create a subset of marriage law. It's a legitimate concern.

 

[Marduk]

If your country is England, based on your location info, then there is no such thing as common law marriage in the laws of your country.

"There is no such thing as ‘common law marriage’."

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/governmentcitizensandrights/yourrightsandresponsibilities/dg_10026937

The term "common-law marriage" has been used in England and Wales since the 1960s to refer to unmarried, cohabiting heterosexual relationships. However, this is merely a social usage.

there is no legal thing as "common law marriage" as its a social description but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, its used as a legally binding appelation by government bodies mainly for the purposes of Tax, social benefits and police involvement.

e.g.
I had an ex who was "unstable", I asked her to move out, she refused, I called the police and they evicted her, because in their eyes, the relationship hadn't lasted long enough for her to be regarded as my spouse. Had it been two years I was informed I would need a court order as we would be regarded as having a common law marriage, so yes, technically common law marriages have no provision under english law, however, we also come under legislation of European law, where it is, there was a recent stink about it when Greece joined the E.U.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7302433.stm

The Greek Orthodox Church has expressed opposition to plans by the Athens government to give greater rights to unmarried couples.
The Church's governing synod said it considered all common-law marriages to be tantamount to "prostitution".

The government proposes to give common-law couples the same rights as those who have gone through legal or religious ceremonies.

It wants to harmonise Greek law to European standards.

 

[mijopaalmc]

Standard forms of monogamy are pretty close to chattel. Count the usages of "mine" in popular song, count how people are accused of "stealing" people from one another, and it's quite clear that the concept of ownership is shot through monogamy.

But people (all jokes aside) don't lose their legal personhood when they enter into a monogamous marriage agreement with the state in Europe or North America. Apperently, marriage alters women's legal personhood in certain parts of the Muslims world.

 

[epepke]

Oh come on spousal rape has been illegal for twenty years.

I hope that it expresses something about my gallows sense of humor that this made me smile. It's been illegal in Florida since, 1973. That is depressingly recently.

The other thing I haven't yet figured whether to be depressed about (well, it's easier to be depressed, so I'll do that) is that for all intents and purposes, monogamy is brand new in the West. As even an expected practice, it's only about a millennium old, but even then, sexual relationships outside the marriage were tolerated pretty well provided they did not significantly risk the stability of the family.

The nuclear family is less than 100 years old. Marriage for love is only a bit more than 100 years old. The modern monogamist imperative according to which it is necessary to destroy a family and hurt its members (especially the children) as much as possible with all the frightening little tools that science and the law have to offer for even a suspicion of infidelity is certainly less old than I am.

Doubtless infidelity has been a problem throughout history, but the modern Western ethic that says that, not only is one supposed to react to actual infidelity in as exaggerated and destructive a manner as possible, but that even in the absence of infidelity, it is absolutely imperative to treat a lover with the maximum amount of suspicion possible, which is guaranteed, if anything, to increase the probability of infidelity just to get away from the microscope.

 

[RandFan]

1. An agreement entered into voluntarily by at least two parties with the intention of establishing a legal obligation. No more. No less.
2. The rights and legal obligation one inherits due to citizenship or other social ties (see social contract theory).

The social contract theory link was incorrect.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/soc-cont/

 

[Tatyana]

there is no legal thing as "common law marriage" as its a social description but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, its used as a legally binding appelation by government bodies mainly for the purposes of Tax, social benefits and police involvement.

e.g.
I had an ex who was "unstable", I asked her to move out, she refused, I called the police and they evicted her, because in their eyes, the relationship hadn't lasted long enough for her to be regarded as my spouse. Had it been two years I was informed I would need a court order as we would be regarded as having a common law marriage, so yes, technically common law marriages have no provision under english law, however, we also come under legislation of European law, where it is, there was a recent stink about it when Greece joined the E.U.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7302433.stm

You might want to check out this site:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consu.../@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_067362.pdf

And this site:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/governmentcitizensandrights/yourrightsandresponsibilities/dg_10026937

Many people think that, after living with their partner for a few years, they become 'common law husband and wife' with the same rights as married couples. This is not the case. In fact, couples who live together have hardly any of the same rights as married couples or civil partners.
There is no such thing as ‘common law marriage’.
If you are living together as a couple, there are steps you can take to protect yourself and your partner. There are also ways to minimise the legal and financial problems which may arise if you decide to separate, or if one of you dies.

As there are very few rights that couple who cohabitate actually have.

It is really important that people have things in place like a will or that both sign the mortgage or rental agreement.

Otherwise you really do not have any rights.

True story.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I hope that it expresses something about my gallows sense of humor that this made me smile. It's been illegal in Florida since, 1973. That is depressingly recently.

Try 1993 and north Carolina for the last state to criminalize spousal rape. So not quite 20 years.

 

[Marduk]

I hope that it expresses something about my gallows sense of humor that this made me smile. It's been illegal in Florida since, 1973. That is depressingly recently.

1991 in the UK, too late for my mother who divorced dear old dad in 1985, she should have been Russian really, its been illegal there since the 1920s

You might want to check out this site:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consu.../@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_067362.pdf

And this site:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/governmentcitizensandrights/yourrightsandresponsibilities/dg_10026937



As there are very few rights that couple who cohabitate actually have.

It is really important that people have things in place like a will or that both sign the mortgage or rental agreement.

Otherwise you really do not have any rights.

True story.

I am aware of my rights thanks
I don't know what made you think I wasn't, now can you address the fact that common law marriage is recognised by the European Union, and that the UK is part of the European union, so common law marriage is recognised in the UK wether or not there exists a proscribement for it in English law

 

[Tatyana]

1991 in the UK, too late for my mother who divorced dear old dad in 1985, she should have been Russian really, its been illegal there since the 1920s


I am aware of my rights thanks
I don't know what made you think I wasn't, now can you address the fact that common law marriage is recognised by the European Union, and that the UK is part of the European union, so common law marriage is recognised in the UK wether or not there exists a proscribement for it in English law

Do you have a link for that as having a common law marriage recognised by the EU would really make our life a lot easier as we haven't sorted out many of the legal things?

I tried but all that came up was the BBC article you posted.

 

[Marduk]

Do you have a link for that as having a common law marriage recognised by the EU would really make our life a lot easier as we haven't sorted out many of the legal things?

I tried but all that came up was the BBC article you posted.

I too have been googling furiously, apparently it was abolished in 2006

All countries in Europe have now abolished "marriage by habit and repute", with Scotland being the last to do so in 2006

bugger, so I guess I withdraw my earlier comments, except for the ex partner stuff which happened in 2005,


quick quick Tatyana, run to the church, only they can save you now

 

[crimresearch]

Try 1993 and north Carolina for the last state to criminalize spousal rape. So not quite 20 years.

Going back to chattel, IIRC, Virginia was the last state to remove their laws from the books, and that wasn't until the 1970s.

 

[epepke]

Try 1993 and north Carolina for the last state to criminalize spousal rape. So not quite 20 years.

No, not even 20 years. Barely one old-enough-to-vote human ago. Florida was surprisingly advanced, not only to have a law that recognized spousal sexual battery by also sexual battery of non-women.

(Wasn't North Carolina one of the last states to permit popular vote for electors of the President? I seem to recall that electors were chosen by the state senate up until the early 60s. It's a dim memory, though.)

 

[ponderingturtle]

I think the Earth is not a sphere and shouldn't be treated as such. Look, if it fits the definition then it simply is. What you think is irrelevant.

The earth is not a sphere, it is an oblate spheroid. The revolving on its axis messes with it being a true sphere.

? What on earth are you talking about?

I suspect you have some misunderstanding as to what a contract is. There are two primary usages of contract.

1. An agreement entered into voluntarily by at least two parties with the intention of establishing a legal obligation. No more. No less.
2. The rights and legal obligation one inherits due to citizenship or other social ties (see social contract theory).

Marriage is of the former and taxes are an obligation inherent to social contract theory.

So as the government is a party in all marriages it can put what conditions it wants, after all it can't be forced into a contract right? Or we stop recognizing marriage in tax law, wrongful death, inheritance, immigration, being able to be compelled to testify...

 

[Tatyana]

I too have been googling furiously, apparently it was abolished in 2006

bugger, so I guess I withdraw my earlier comments, except for the ex partner stuff which happened in 2005,


quick quick Tatyana, run to the church, only they can save you now

Yes, it sucks.

We should really stop putting off some of the legal things as you never know when something dreadful happens, for example, if one of us ended up in hospital, the NHS might be sympathetic to a lot of issues, but I wouldn't be surprised if a few serious treatment options would need a family member to verify the treatment (assuming unconsciousness).

Ironically, if we moved back to New Zealand, if we could demonstrate that we have been living together for a year, then I would be able to have some sort of residency status.

I must admit I like the idea of a civil partnership more, but that is only available to gay couples.