Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[WildCat]

Maybe, but it is really hard fit two encounters into the timeline we have.

I'm thinking the circling thing happened when GZ was on the phone with the police when he says "now he is coming towards me" followed by "something is wrong with him. yup, he is coming to check me out" and then "how long till you get an officer over here?"

In which case any conversation would have been recorded, and there is no such conversation.

Is someone claiming that the "why are you following me" happened when Zimmerman was still in his vehicle?

 

[curi0us]

In which case any conversation would have been recorded, and there is no such conversation.

Is someone claiming that the "why are you following me" happened when Zimmerman was still in his vehicle?

Mr. Martin is claiming that he was told that GZ said the conversation happened while GZ was in the vehicle. My theory is that Mr. Martin (or Serino) just got some details confused, though it's a pretty glaring mistake to make.

The recent court testimony about GZ saying TM circled his truck is a separate issue in my thinking.

 

[WildCat]

The recent court testimony about GZ saying TM circled his truck is a separate issue in my thinking.

He didn't say "circled", he said "ran around". When you go around an obstacle you don't circle it.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

He didn't say "circled", he said "ran around". When you go around an obstacle you don't circle it.

Huh?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/around

"in a circle, ring, or the like; so as to surround a person, group, thing, etc.: The crowd gathered around."

Seriously though, obviously when someone says "around" they may not literally mean a 360 degree circle, but otherwise I'm not sure why you are differentiating between around and circled?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

He didn't say "circled", he said "ran around". When you go around an obstacle you don't circle it.

DE LA RIONDA: Did he, Mr. Zimmerman, the defendant, at one point claim to the police that he was scared because Mr. Martin started circling his car?

So, yeah. IDK. It's certainly possible that the next day, either the detective Told Mr. Martin some incorrect details, or Mr. Martin misunderstood what he was told.

A few of us had read and dismissed that account as incorrect earlier. Now, with Gilbreath on the stand describing TM circling the car, it is time to revisit that story as possibly correct. There is enough time after GZ hang up for it to happen. Is it any more or less likely ? I don't know.

We will certainly see what GZ said to the police soon enough. I think that's part of the attraction of the thread to me ... to see if the pieces can be stitched together reasonably well based on what we know, with the added bonus that we maybe get to find out if we were right or not as more info becomes known.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Mr. Martin is claiming that he was told that GZ said the conversation happened while GZ was in the vehicle. My theory is that Mr. Martin (or Serino) just got some details confused, though it's a pretty glaring mistake to make.

The recent court testimony about GZ saying TM circled his truck is a separate issue in my thinking.

Definitely possible. I am not sure I can believe the picture of TM 'circling' the truck as GZ was on the 911 call though ... and not sure when else that might have happened.

 

[Noztradamus]

I'd be curious to hear what you think really happened.

GZ's version as usually reported doesn't include the window knock and while his account seems unlikely it is actually possible. From what I've seen the GF's version is totally unworkable with known facts. Can you piece the GF's version together in a way that seems reasonable?

Yes. I can.

 

[curi0us]

Definitely possible. I am not sure I can believe the picture of TM 'circling' the truck as GZ was on the 911 call though ... and not sure when else that might have happened.

Whenever it happened I've imagined it more like a semicircular path that highlighted TM being focused on the truck/GZ. Listening to GZ's call to the police there is definitely a moment where it sounds like TM became aggressively focused on GZ. I am guessing at that point TM took a somewhat looping/circular path around GZ's truck. Just my best guess with info we have now.

 

[Noztradamus]

No, but if you want to discount that claim, you could at least specifically state where the contradictions, etc. are to be found.

OK If Martin has asked Zimmerman "Why are you following me?" before Zimmerman's not 911 call, why didn't he mention the encounter to the operator. It either didn't happen, or Zman thinks the conversation would cast doubt on a "I don't know what his game is" ploy to get the cops to come out and roust "his" perp. Both possibilitues seem unlikely, giving the most favourable consideration to Zman here.

It clearly didn't happen during the transcript of the not 911 call as even if(unknow voice: Why are you following me?" was not heard, Zman's answer "I'm not following you" would be.

And the not 911 call ends after Zman starts to follow Martin. So we are to be entertained by the idea of Zman returning to his truck, Martin following him, the two discussing Zman following Martin, then Martin running away with Zman in pursuit, the two reversing postions sometime during the chase so Martin approaches and attacks Zman from behind.

However, then Zman's response "I'm not following you" is either a lie, or a precise parsing of "I was following you. I'm not at this exact moment, but will again if you leave" (which I frankly do not believe Zimmerman has the mental capacity to accomplish.)

Do you really find that plausible ?

Occam's Razor suggests no such conversation at Zimmerman's truck occured.

 

[curi0us]

Yes. I can.

Err, what is it then? As I said before I'd like to hear what you think really happened.

 

[Mumbles]

It is being claimed that Z goes back to the truck (and M returns to the truck as well) after the 911 call....

And considering that there are only 1-2 minutes between the end of Zimmerman's 911 call and the start of their confrontation, and that the girl Martin was on the phone with apparently didn't hear this additional conversation, or any of this extra running back and forth that would be required for it to occur, I'd say that it's a false story.

 

[Kaosium]

Lawyer: Angela Corey missed deadline to release evidence

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/La...ence/-/1637132/12190668/-/g2ilu2/-/index.html

When denying requests from the public for the Zimmerman discovery records Friday, Corey's office told Local 6 Florida law allowed her to keep the records secret using a criminal investigative exemption because "no records have been provided to the defendant."

But Ponce, who specializes in public record law, believes that Corey can no longer use that reason to withhold records from the public, now that the 15 day discovery deadline has passed. That's because Florida law specifically excludes documents "required" to be given to the defendant from the type of records that can be withheld as criminal investigative information.

Wait a minute, this doesn't make sense to me. What does it mean when the prosecution withholds documents to both the defense and the public because of some 'criminal investigative exemption?' What would they be investigating at this point?

 

[Noztradamus]

Yes. I can.

Err, what is it then? As I said before I'd like to hear what you think really happened.

See, like the police operator, you need to actually ask. A mere observation like "we don't need you to do that" or "I'd be curious to hear what you think really happened" might well be ignored

OK Zman is driving north on Retreat View Circle when he sees Martin returing on the snack run taking a short cut and entering the community between two blocks of houses in the NW corner.

Now Zman is steaming over the incident 3 weeks earlier when he spotted a perp "looking at houses", who escaped before the cops arrived and when he was caught 4 days later Zman was not given the credit.

So he thinks he's spotted "another one", follows him slowly until Martin goes into the clubhouse area. Zman turns into Twin Trees Lane and stops to make his call to the police operator. This activity looks highly suss to Martin, who walks slowly past and when clear runs.
When he gets clear of Zmans sight, he doesn't want to run home down the walkway between the houses, because if the weird guy is following (and he is) Martin will be seen running down the walkway before he reaches his house, showing the neighborhood pervert where he lives.
So he ducks into the shadows by the short fence of one of the houses, until he can figure what the weird guy's deal is. As he can see the weird guy is not near, he is talking to his girl friend (but not girlfriend) quietly.

Meanwhile Zmans follows the horizontal walkway to Retreat View Circle. As the ******* is not in sight on RVC, he tells the operator the perp is making for the rear entrance (presumably by the walkway) Zimmerman's call to the police ends.
He now turns down the walkway and starts to shine his torch into the shadows by the houses.
Martin realizes he has a Javert and decides to face him. He approaches ZMan whilst Z is inspecting one of the houses on the other side, so appraoches Z "from behind" .
Martin: "Why are you following me?"
Zimmerman: "What are you doing in this neighborhood?"
Martin: "Do you have a problem with that?"
Zimmerman: "I don't have a problem" (reaches for his pocket)

This is the point Martin believes he is in serious danger - something occurs, phone call to G F cut off.

 

[crimresearch]

Wait a minute, this doesn't make sense to me. What does it mean when the prosecution withholds documents to both the defense and the public because of some 'criminal investigative exemption?' What would they be investigating at this point?

That law wasn't written solely with a case like this in mind.

Multiple defendants, fugitive situations, random witnesses, unrecovered evidence, etc. take time, and the media doesn't have the right to jeopardize an investigation just to get a headline.

 

[KatieG]

Wait a minute, this doesn't make sense to me. What does it mean when the prosecution withholds documents to both the defense and the public because of some 'criminal investigative exemption?' What would they be investigating at this point?

They aren't investigating. The defense and prosecution wanted the documents with names of the witnesses redacted. The defense asked for that, the prosecution agreed and the judge was fine with it.


https://www.facebook.com/GeorgeZimmermanLegalCase

Quote:
We understand there are some questions and concerns regarding the discovery deadline suggested by our Criminal Rules. While the rules do state that discovery is due 15 days from demand, that is a right which George Zimmerman enjoys, and it is up to his defense team to decide how to handle these matters.
We are concerned about the release of witness information to the general public, solely due to safety concerns. There has been a lot of animosity and emotions caused by incomplete and premature disclosure of information. Becasue those emotions still run so high, we want to do everything we can to protect the sanctity of the process and the safety of the witnesses.

No good purpose will be served by a media frenzy directed at witnesses. While the media and the public have an absolute right to know about this case, that right has to be balanced with the rights of these witnesses.
They are doing their civic duty in testifying in this case.
We doubt any of them enjoy the scrutiny they are under due to the coincidence of their involvement in such a high profile matter. We are delaying demanding the discovery until we can file motions to protect these witnesses. Once that is in place, discovery will flow to us, then the media and the public has access to it, under our rules.

Ms. Corey in not violating any rule or statute, as it is our decision, not hers, to wait until proper motions regarding the witnesses have been drafted and filed. tks for your understanding."

 

[Kaosium]

That law wasn't written solely with a case like this in mind.

Multiple defendants, fugitive situations, random witnesses, unrecovered evidence, etc. take time, and the media doesn't have the right to jeopardize an investigation just to get a headline.

Certainly I agree with your premise, though I would say the media might well have jeopardized the process already perhaps leading to 'created' 'witnesses' as sometimes happens with high profile cases. I'm just wondering how much more evidence they would need after the original police investigation added to Crump's 'investigation' and whether that suggests they might not have had a very good reason to make the arrest. I think it preferable to do an investigation and then prosecute as opposed to a prosecutor looking for evidence after the fact for a case as public as this.

 

[Kaosium]

They aren't investigating. The defense and prosecution wanted the documents with names of the witnesses redacted. The defense asked for that, the prosecution agreed and the judge was fine with it.


https://www.facebook.com/GeorgeZimmermanLegalCase

Quote:
We understand there are some questions and concerns regarding the discovery deadline suggested by our Criminal Rules. While the rules do state that discovery is due 15 days from demand, that is a right which George Zimmerman enjoys, and it is up to his defense team to decide how to handle these matters.
We are concerned about the release of witness information to the general public, solely due to safety concerns. There has been a lot of animosity and emotions caused by incomplete and premature disclosure of information. Becasue those emotions still run so high, we want to do everything we can to protect the sanctity of the process and the safety of the witnesses.

No good purpose will be served by a media frenzy directed at witnesses. While the media and the public have an absolute right to know about this case, that right has to be balanced with the rights of these witnesses.
They are doing their civic duty in testifying in this case.
We doubt any of them enjoy the scrutiny they are under due to the coincidence of their involvement in such a high profile matter. We are delaying demanding the discovery until we can file motions to protect these witnesses. Once that is in place, discovery will flow to us, then the media and the public has access to it, under our rules.

Ms. Corey in not violating any rule or statute, as it is our decision, not hers, to wait until proper motions regarding the witnesses have been drafted and filed. tks for your understanding."

So they are saying this is to protect the witnesses? Maybe let it die down a little? Gawd what an ugly situation.

 

[KatieG]

So they are saying this is to protect the witnesses? Maybe let it die down a little? Gawd what an ugly situation.

I think MO'M is handling this the right way. He is asking for protection of all the witnesses. I happen to agree that their identities should be protected. They didn't ask to get caught up in all this.

That's why I also think it would be nice if the name of TM's gf wasn't posted anywhere. She deserves protection also.

 

[curi0us]

See, like the police operator, you need to actually ask. A mere observation like "we don't need you to do that" or "I'd be curious to hear what you think really happened" might well be ignored

OK Zman is driving north on Retreat View Circle when he sees Martin returing on the snack run taking a short cut and entering the community between two blocks of houses in the NW corner.

Now Zman is steaming over the incident 3 weeks earlier when he spotted a perp "looking at houses", who escaped before the cops arrived and when he was caught 4 days later Zman was not given the credit.

So he thinks he's spotted "another one", follows him slowly until Martin goes into the clubhouse area. Zman turns into Twin Trees Lane and stops to make his call to the police operator. This activity looks highly suss to Martin, who walks slowly past and when clear runs.
When he gets clear of Zmans sight, he doesn't want to run home down the walkway between the houses, because if the weird guy is following (and he is) Martin will be seen running down the walkway before he reaches his house, showing the neighborhood pervert where he lives.
So he ducks into the shadows by the short fence of one of the houses, until he can figure what the weird guy's deal is. As he can see the weird guy is not near, he is talking to his girl friend (but not girlfriend) quietly.

Meanwhile Zmans follows the horizontal walkway to Retreat View Circle. As the ******* is not in sight on RVC, he tells the operator the perp is making for the rear entrance (presumably by the walkway) Zimmerman's call to the police ends.
He now turns down the walkway and starts to shine his torch into the shadows by the houses.
Martin realizes he has a Javert and decides to face him. He approaches ZMan whilst Z is inspecting one of the houses on the other side, so appraoches Z "from behind" .
Martin: "Why are you following me?"
Zimmerman: "What are you doing in this neighborhood?"
Martin: "Do you have a problem with that?"
Zimmerman: "I don't have a problem" (reaches for his pocket)

This is the point Martin believes he is in serious danger - something occurs, phone call to G F cut off.

That doesn't match TM's GF version though. Critical to your version is TM hiding for an extended period of time which the girl friend never mentions. She says first TM runs "trying to lose" GZ and is successful with no mention of hiding. Then she says TM is "walking" home and says,"oh, he's right behind me. He's right behind me again." She then tells TM to run and he says he's not going to and he is just going to "walk fast". Her description is of TM being pursued trying to get away and not of a TM hiding being worried about a person with a flashlight looking for him. TM also would have been hiding for a while as he initially runs at 7:12 and the fight isn't till 7:16, that seems like a long time for TM's girlfriend to have no idea what TM is actually doing.

Here is Crump relating the GF's account:

She relays how he went to the store. When he came out from the store, he said it was starting to rain, he was going to try to make it home before it rained. Then he tells her it starts raining hard. He runs into the apartment complex and runs to the first building he sees to try to get out of the rain. He was trying to get shelter. So he tries to get out of the rain.

And unbeknownst to him, he is being watched. He is a kid trying to get home from the store and get out of the rain. That's it. Nothing else. So, he stands under that apartment building for a few minutes, the rain kind of dies down. He then goes, and he has his hoodie on because it's raining and he goes back to walking. And he goes back to talking to her again. You'll see the phone calls when it came in at 6:54. He then says, I think this dude is following me. And she talks about how he kind of slows down and he's trying to look in the car like, I think this dude is following me. And she tells him, baby, be careful, just run home. She tells him that.
Snip

She connects the dots. She completely blows Zimmerman's absurd defense claim out of the water. She says that Trayvon says he's going to try to lose him. He's running trying to lose him. He tells her, I think I lost him. So, he's walking and then she says that he says very simply, oh, he's right behind me. He's right behind me again. And so she says "run." He says, I'm not going to run. I'm going to walk fast. At that point, she says Trayvon -- she hears Trayvon say, why are you following me. She hears the other boy say, what are you doing around here. And again, Trayvon says, why are you following me. And that's when she says again he said, what are you doing around here. Trayvon is pushed. . .
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/20/cnr.03.html

 

[This is The End]

Which evidence specifically is that ?

Well we know the rain had ended before the cops got there right? And we can assume it started when M ducked under the awning. Also we have the local rain gauges do we not?

Someone could acquire the Doppler for that night from weather.com I believe. IIRC there is a way to look up old Doppler.

If his immunity hearing is held, and found to not have immunity, a wrongful death lawsuit could be filed, correct. However, if it's ruled in his favor, he is also immune from a civil lawsuit.

HOWEVER, a civil rights violation lawsuit IS able to be filed.

OK that is more in line with what I was thinking at first.

Huh? Zimmerman never made it back to the truck or claimed to as far as I know.

Do I really have to find the posts where that was claimed?

ETA: Thanx TheL8Elvis for digging it up for me!

<snip>

Right.

If the "at the truck incident" happened BEFORE the not911 call it is weird that Z didn't say anything about it in the call.

If it happened AFTER the not911 call it is weird because of the time-line.

Either way it is weird.

Refresh my memory... does the supposed conversation that happened at the truck partially match the supposed conversation the GF overheard?

The "Are you following me" and "No"..... or however it went.