JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

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So now Roberts purpose is no longer to look at the facts and only point them out?

Yet much of he points out has been shown not to be fact.

What Robert describes is not a discussion. And if he is not here to convince us whom is it he feels he is pointing this out to? And for what benefit?

It would be nice to know so we can assess the best way to point out his continued misrepresentations of flase conclusions as "fact".
 
But I will say this, that majority of the up close witnesses said the fatal shot came from the grassy knoll.

This is not true. Count them. The House Select Committee on Assassinations found only 20 witnesses who actually believed they heard the shots from the vicinity of the Grassy Knoll, and 46 who thought the shots came from the direction of the School Book Depository (Volume 2, p. 122).

I'll give you that your conspiracy books claim otherwise. The problem is that the witness testimony is often unclear. Statements don't always say explicitly where a witness thought the shot came from. Because of this, the count of Knoll witnesses versus TSBD witnesses varies greatly depending upon who is researching the testimony. For those interested, McAdams has put together a fine list here that compares four researcher conclusions with his own. Feel free to check the citations given and come to your own conclusion.

I'll predict your response that the Parkland witnesses aren't on this list. You should understand that they are not "on the scene" witnesses. The crime scene was at Dealey Plaza. None of those doctors have claimed to be doing any sort of forensic examination. They were all engaged in trying to save the President's life.

You think that the Parkland doctors saw an entry wound in the right temple and a large exit wound (blow out) in the lower back right-side of the head. Even though we have shown you that they haven't said what you think they said, let's assume it is true. How does a shot that enter's Kennedy's right temple and leaves his right occiputal area equate to a shot from the grassy knoll? Do you understand the geography of the area? Such a shot would originate from somewhere up Elm Street or on the overpass.
 
Monza wrote:

Originally Posted by Robert Prey
But I will say this, that majority of the up close witnesses said the fatal shot came from the grassy knoll.

This is not true. Count them. The House Select Committee on Assassinations found only 20 witnesses who actually believed they heard the shots from the vicinity of the Grassy Knoll, and 46 who thought the shots came from the direction of the School Book Depository (Volume 2, p. 122).

The House committee "found" the witnesses they wanted to find. By up close I mean up close. Ken O'donnell, Dave Powers, the Wallises, the Newmans, Beverly Oliver, Bobby Hargis, Jean Hill.
 
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Quoting Cyril Wecht:



This testimony is Riebe's 30-year-old recollection of the wounds to Kennedy's head that he observed at autopsy. However, in the same testimony Riebe said he never got closer than 5 feet to Kennedy's head during the autopsy, that his recollection of the wounds observed at autopsy was not confident (and was, as he admitted later, in error), and that he had participated in only a few autopsies prior to Kennedy's -- none prior having been the victim of a gunshot wound. In fact, Riebe admitted not being present when the brain was weighed or examined by doctors.

Further, Riebe was shown the autopsy photos as recovered from the national archives and stated under oath that he had no reason to believe they were not the photos he and Stringer had taken during the autopsy.



O'Neill never saw the photographs previously. The film was delivered to the Secret Service and developed, but the FBI never received the requested copies of them and so the first time O'Neill ever saw the autopsy photos was in 1996 at which time he was comparing them to his 30-year-old recollection of the events. Further, we see that O'Neill had undertaken a program of lecturing, reading, and writing on his experiences. In terms of witness testimony, this sort of activity typically has the effect of reinforcing embellishments and misrecollections over time. Hence his 30-year-old "enhanced" recollection is not a sufficient basis for impeaching the validity of photographs he had not previously seen.

Agent O'Neill recalls Kennedy's eyes being open during the autopsy and quibbles with the notion that the photos sometimes depict only half-closed eyes. Other witnesses testify that the President's eyes varied between open and closed, as efforts were made to keep them closed. He comments that the photos are "doctored" in the sense that the wound was evidently manipulated by doctors during the course of the autopsy, such as to reflect the lacerant. He does not seem to understand that this is intentional, is customary procedure, and was documented. This accounts for nearly all his statements that Wecht interprets as attesting to "inaccuracy." In fact O'Neill affirms that he does not question the authenticity of the photos, a fact Wecht suspiciously omits.



Which of the three such reports?



In his 1996 deposition Stringer could not properly recall the camera equipment or film that was used during Kennedy's first autopsy, nor whether certain types of photography were taken. In fact, Stringer's testimony is a whole long list of things he does not recall from previous testimony, yet for which there is documentary evidence. Stringer was ultimately unable to reconcile his misrecollections of the first autopsy with the documentary evidence.

The photographs in question, "of the brain," were from the supplementary autopsy after the brain had been removed for separate study. These have nothing to do with the head wound, or the photos taken during the general (first) autopsy. The casual reader isn't likely to notice that Stringer talks to the Post about photographs that have no bearing on the direction of the fatal shot. And whatever he may have said to the press, his statement under oath is that he had a poor recollection of what photography equipment, techniques, and coverage he employed at the supplementary autopsy.

Stringer testifies that the photographs he took of Kennedy's head wound have not been altered.

Stringer, by the way, explicitly denies that there was skeletal deficit to the occipital bone, that it was cracked only; the injury he describes was primarily to temporal and parietal bones. He also describes the feature previously identified by a doctor as a bullet entrance wound as being in the occipital-parietal region. Stringer's poor performance as a witness under oath notwithstanding, why do conspiracy theorists omit Stringer's confirmation of the opinion that the fatal head shot came from behind?



Each of the witnesses was asked specifically whether he had any reason to believe the autopsy photos had been tampered with, matted, or retouched since they were taken. None said he did, and affirmed that the photos were as they had been taken on the dates in question. The accusation of tampering is Wecht's alone and is not supported in this case by his evidence.

Nonsense. This is old ground that has been rehashed time and again. The creators of the pics in evidence deny they are the ones they took. Deal with it.
 
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The House committee "found" the witnesses they wanted to find.

Explain what measures your favorite conspiracy authors took to ensure that they simply didn't "find" the witnesses they wanted to find? I'm asking you for some sort of appropriate statistical control and all you can give me is rant after rant. How many more times must I ask?

By up close I mean up close.

To what?

Ken O'donnell, Dave Powers, the Wallises, the Newmans, Beverly Oliver, Bobby Hargis.

That's 8. Out of 300 people on the plaza that day? What makes these eight witnesses so much more important than the other 290-odd?
 
Nonsense. This is old ground that has been rehashed time and again.

Then why did you bring it up again?

The creators of the pics in evidence deny they are the ones they took. Deal with it.

I've dealt with it by showing how your author Wecht cherry-picked the testimony. I've summarized additional testimony from the original witnesses that disputes his analysis. Since you didn't address a single point of my summary, I assume you have no material response and the rebuttal stands unchallenged.
 
You don't even know what photos you are talking about. The burden is clearly on you.

If you think so, then perhaps you'd like to address where I described why the burden of proof lies where it does, and how the legal challenge to evidence by affirmative counterclaim further carries the burden of proof.
 
Floyd Riebe, one of the official autopsy photographers, testified that "less than half the brain was there." Shown the official autopsy photographs of the brain that are currently at the National Archives, FBI agent Francis O'Neill, who witnessed the autopsy, claimed that the photogrpahs were inaccurate... "The official autopsy report documents the weight of the president's brain to be fifteen hundred grams, which is heavier than the average, complete human brain....

John stringer, the lead autopsy photographer, examined the autopsy photographs of the President's brain. He told the the Washington Post that the current pictures of the brain are not his and do not resemble anything he saw the night of the autopsy.

Why is this important? It shows that the Kennedy assassination evidence has been tampered with. Someone does not want the truth to be known.. -- Dr. Cyril Wecht in "Tales from the Morgue", p. 241

* * *

At every turn, the evidence ... simply does not add up to a lone gunman...Evidence is missing. Witnesses were asked to falsify affidavits. Testimony is dramatically altered. Documents are manipulated. What happend in Dealey Plaza on Nov. 22nd, 1963 was an effort by two or more people to kill the president of the United States. What has happened since has been a conspiracy to hide the truth. -- Dr. Cyril Wecht in "Tales from the Morgue" Page. 243.


Here's another Dr. Cyril Wecht quote...

From the Rockefeller Commission (Archives Document Record #180-10107-10237 Agency File #002422).

Mr. Olsen: Now, I’m going to ask you whether you have an opinion, based upon a reasonable medical certainty, as to whether any shots were fired at the President from the front or right front that struck him.

Dr. Wecht: No. With reasonable medical certainty, I could not say that a shot had been fired from the front.
 
Monza wrote:

Originally Posted by Robert Prey
But I will say this, that majority of the up close witnesses said the fatal shot came from the grassy knoll.

This is not true. Count them. The House Select Committee on Assassinations found only 20 witnesses who actually believed they heard the shots from the vicinity of the Grassy Knoll, and 46 who thought the shots came from the direction of the School Book Depository (Volume 2, p. 122).

The House committee "found" the witnesses they wanted to find. By up close I mean up close. Ken O'donnell, Dave Powers, the Wallises, the Newmans, Beverly Oliver, Bobby Hargis, Jean Hill.

Oh you mean just like you are being selective in which witnessess you "find" here?

Being close to the impact does not make you better placed to discern the origin of the shot. Indeed, it makes you open to misinterpretation by the limited field of vision.

Other witnessess who saw the shot from a wider field of view can be usefull too, despite your attempt to just plain ignore them. Bad form. If you claim witnessess testemony is the best evidence, you need to take all of them into account, not just the ones you want.

Those you "find" are far more limited that the committee you accuse of selecting only those they wish to find. Your own confirmation bias is far too obvious for you to cast stones at others.
 
By up close I mean up close. Ken O'donnell, Dave Powers, the Wallises, the Newmans, Beverly Oliver, Bobby Hargis, Jean Hill.
Certainly not the shooter. Rude Robert laughably thinks that the closer a witness was to the President the better placed they are to testify as to where the shooter was. I suppose Mrs Kennedy and Governor Connaly, in that case, would be the best witnesses. Remind us, Rude Robert, what, exactly, did Mrs Kennedy and Connaly testify about the grassy knoll?!
 
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Oh you mean just like you are being selective in which witnessess you "find" here?

Being close to the impact does not make you better placed to discern the origin of the shot. Indeed, it makes you open to misinterpretation by the limited field of vision.

Goodness, who cares what the witnesses, close-up or otherwise, saw? We have a movie recording of what happened. It can be slowed down, enlarged, and viewed repeatedly. From it, we can see what happened to JFK's head.

What would witnesses have seen, particularly one that was looking at the president, that could be of any use beyond what we ourselves can see from the Z-film?

Witnesses saw it once, in real time, and were not cognizant of what they were seeing, so not actually looking for anything in particular. It's nothing compared to the film.

There is a reason that football coaches rely on film to evaluate players. They can't see what's happening in real time
 
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Goodness, who cares what the witnesses, close-up or otherwise, saw? We have a movie recording of what happened. It can be slowed down, enlarged, and viewed repeatedly. From it, we can see what happened to JFK's head.

What would witnesses have seen, particularly one that was looking at the president, that could be of any use beyond what we ourselves can see from the Z-film?

Witnesses saw it once, in real time, and were not cognizant of what they were seeing, so not actually looking for anything in particular. It's nothing compared to the film.

There is a reason that football coaches rely on film to evaluate players. They can't see what's happening in real time

Yes, but the mutability of human memory is apparently, according to Robert, far less of an issue than the possibility the z film and other recordings, and photographs, including polaroids, taken at the scene in the plaza or at the autopsy, and also those taken of lho with the weapons were all faked. All of them. In ways that leave no signs of tampering what so ever.

He also has the ability to know what witnessess meant, when their statements contradict his claims if taken in context or reading beyond his selected quotes.
 
Certainly not the shooter. Rude Robert laughably thinks that the closer a witness was to the President the better placed they are to testify as to where the shooter was. I suppose Mrs Kennedy and Governor Connaly, in that case, would be the best witnesses. Remind us, Rude Robert, what, exactly, did Mrs Kennedy and Connaly testify about the grassy knoll?!

Connally rejects the 3 shots from the back, and thus by inference, supports a shot from elsewhere, namely, the Grassy knoll.

"Beyond any question, and I'll never change my opinion, the first bullet did not hit me. The second bullet did hit me. The third bullet did not hit me."

Doug Thompson later revealed that in 1982 he asked Connally if he was convinced that Lee Harvey Oswald fired the gun that killed John F. Kennedy. "Absolutely not," Connally said. "I do not, for one second, believe the conclusions of the Warren Commission." Thompson asked why he had not spoken out about this. Connally replied: "Because I love this country and we needed closure at the time. I will never speak out publicly about what I believe."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x302357
 
Here's another Dr. Cyril Wecht quote...

From the Rockefeller Commission (Archives Document Record #180-10107-10237 Agency File #002422).

Mr. Olsen: Now, I’m going to ask you whether you have an opinion, based upon a reasonable medical certainty, as to whether any shots were fired at the President from the front or right front that struck him.

Dr. Wecht: No. With reasonable medical certainty, I could not say that a shot had been fired from the front.

According to Dr. Wecht, that was a misrepresentation as to what he testified:

"I testified that the evidence made it clear to me that the single-bullet theory was nonsense; that all the bullets were not fired from behind; that more than three shots were fired...; that the autopsy was a sham..."

"Imagine my surprise when I read the Rockefeller Commission's report that I concurred with its opinion that all of the shots were indeed fired from behind...'

"When I demanded to see a transcript of my testimony, I was told that is was confidential and to release it would be a breach of national security."

I told a reporter from the AP that 'if that transcript shows in any way that I have withdrawn my thoughts of the Warren Commission Report, I'll eat the transcript on the steps of the Whitehouse.'"

-- Dr. Cyril Wecht in Tales from the Morgue, P. 237
 
Then why did you bring it up again?



I've dealt with it by showing how your author Wecht cherry-picked the testimony. I've summarized additional testimony from the original witnesses that disputes his analysis. Since you didn't address a single point of my summary, I assume you have no material response and the rebuttal stands unchallenged.

NO. It is your testimony that is cherry picked.
 
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