JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

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If one were to try to enter the alleged autopsy photos into evidence in a criminal trail, such evidence would not be allowed unless a foundation were first laid as to the validity of the photos.

No, you're trying to say that evidence isn't admissible unless it can be proven by those submitting it that it cannot possibly have been forged. That is not the standard of admissibility for photographs. In the case of photographs purporting to be documentary records of a condition or event, the testimony of the custodian of those records is almost always sufficient to establish it as admissible.

How could that be possible when the creators of the originals deny that the ones in evidence are the ones they took.

Your claim to that effect has been rebutted. Since you offered no rejoinder, the rebuttal stands.

Thus, there is no way such photographic evidence would be allowed without such validation.

Nonsense. You're confusing the admissibility of evidence with the truthfulness of the evidence. Evidence is admissible if it passes a certain rather low standard. The court determines its truthfulness after it has been admitted.

If the opposing party at trial wishes to challenge the truthfulness of the evidence on the grounds that it is fraudulent, doctored, or fabricated, then that is an affirmative claim that carries the burden of proof. Impeaching the credibility of evidence is always the opposing party's duty; the submitter is not responsible first to show that his evidence could survive all impeachment. Were that the case, there'd be no need for the trial.

So how do you know the photos are valid???

This has been asked and answered repeatedly. Claims of forgery or falsification carry the burden of proof. It is not epistemologically possible to prove something is authentic, only at best that it hasn't been forged according to any detectable means. Please stop trying to shift the burden of proof, Robert. In case you've not noticed, no one here is going to let you do it.
 
My only purpose is to point out the facts, and how you and other Lone Nutters deny them.

Challenging your claims is not "denying the facts." You seem to want everyone to accept your claims without argument. That doesn't happen in the real world, Robert.

And In a court of Law, or for that matter in the Court of Public Opinion, before you can offer any opinions at all as to a photo, you must bear the burden of proof that the photo is valid.

Nonsense.
 
Hey, let's get one thing straight. I have no desire nor any hope of convincing you of anything. My only purpose is to point out the facts, and how you and other Lone Nutters deny them.
The word "fact" is not synonymous with "Robert Prey's prejudiced, selective, wishful-thinking, ill-informed conclusions." Justsoyaknow.

Now, please give a definition for your term "blow out."
 
If one were to try to enter the alleged autopsy photos into evidence in a criminal trail, such evidence would not be allowed unless a foundation were first laid as to the validity of the photos. How could that be possible when the creators of the originals deny that the ones in evidence are the ones they took. Thus, there is no way such photographic evidence would be allowed without such validation. So how do you know the photos are valid???

Read the Federal Rules of Evidence and see just how wrong you really are Robert.

Let me give you a hint. The COURT is NOT bound by the Federal Rules of Evidence. If the judge says they are admitted...guess what? In they go.

All of this is really above your pay grade Robert.
 
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Read the Federal Rules of evidence and see just how wrong you really are Robert.

Let me give oyu a hint. The COURT is NOT bound by the Federal Rules of Evidence. If the judge says they are admitted...guess what? In they go.

All of this is really above your pay grade Robert.

Baloney. This non-Federal court is really beyond both your pay grade and your comprehension. Judges can do whatever they want, but the standard is, any exhibit must be introduced with a foundation or it may be objected to and disallowed. In the court of public opinion, a photo without any validation is absolutely irrelevant. And you might be better informed if you understood that the assassination of a President in 1963 was not a Federal offense.
 
No, you're trying to say that evidence isn't admissible unless it can be proven by those submitting it that it cannot possibly have been forged. That is not the standard of admissibility for photographs. In the case of photographs purporting to be documentary records of a condition or event, the testimony of the custodian of those records is almost always sufficient to establish it as admissible.



Your claim to that effect has been rebutted. Since you offered no rejoinder, the rebuttal stands.



Nonsense. You're confusing the admissibility of evidence with the truthfulness of the evidence. Evidence is admissible if it passes a certain rather low standard. The court determines its truthfulness after it has been admitted.

If the opposing party at trial wishes to challenge the truthfulness of the evidence on the grounds that it is fraudulent, doctored, or fabricated, then that is an affirmative claim that carries the burden of proof. Impeaching the credibility of evidence is always the opposing party's duty; the submitter is not responsible first to show that his evidence could survive all impeachment. Were that the case, there'd be no need for the trial.



This has been asked and answered repeatedly. Claims of forgery or falsification carry the burden of proof. It is not epistemologically possible to prove something is authentic, only at best that it hasn't been forged according to any detectable means. Please stop trying to shift the burden of proof, Robert. In case you've not noticed, no one here is going to let you do it.

Photos?You haven't even determined what photos your are talking about. If the autopsy photos, which ones? If the ones's in question are refuted as not the ones the alleged photographers shot, then that is the end of it. There is no way such photos can be refuted as fake since they are fake to begin with.
 
First, please don't rail-split my post. I'm asking you to consider the distribution of witnesses, so pulling out one of my three questions and answering only it fails to address my point.

Witnesses to brief, happenstance events tend to give testimony that's all over the map (no pun intended). So one of the first things we do is try to develop an understanding of the distribution of testimony. That's what I'm asking you to do here. Among the hundreds of witnesses in Dealey Plaza, who saw or heard what, where? Those who claim they heard or saw something at the grassy knoll -- do they represent a statistically significant minority? Did other people hear or see something from other non-TSBD locations?

In terms of investigation, there is always more happening than what you're interested in. That is, while the plane is crashing or the lady is being mugged, there are other unrelated events occurring that may catch witnesses' eyes. Similarly the arson investigator has to know that there were other things going on in the house besides the mechanism of ignition and combustion; he can't assume everything he runs across in the cinders is related to the alleged crime. The investigator must determine which of all witnesses reports and evidence are related to the event he's investigating and which are not.

Second, why would it depend on who's counting? Is the number uncertain, or does some of the witness testimony require interpretation?

Depending on the source, the number is very uncertain. It's just like Joseph Stalin's opinion of a democracy, namely, he said, it matters not who gets the most votes, but who counts the votes. And so it is with the Grassy Knoll witnesses. But I will say this, that majority of the up close witnesses said the fatal shot came from the grassy knoll.
 
Depending on the source, the number is very uncertain. It's just like Joseph Stalin's opinion of a democracy, namely, he said, it matters not who gets the most votes, but who counts the votes. And so it is with the Grassy Knoll witnesses. But I will say this, that majority of the up close witnesses said the fatal shot came from the grassy knoll.

LOL. Have you yet figured out why everything you post is so easily shot down?
 
...There is no way such photos can be refuted as fake since they are fake to begin with.
And there you go again with your assertions unsupported by proof.

I seem to recall having a similar discussion some time ago with the poster Rouser2 (who also was 100% wrong about the backyard photos). I asked you once before, but you didn't answer: Was that you? Were you Rouser2? A yes or no will be fine.

Also, please give a definition for your term "blow out."
 
Thread participants:

Back in post #6421 I asked this:
Me said:
Am I understanding correctly the contention that if there is a "blow out" to a region of the head it therefore follows that the point of entry was in some specific or largely general way opposite this region? So, if true, a "blow out" in the rear of JFK's head requires a shot from somewhere to his front, according to what is being suggested, yes?

Put another way, is a "blow out" of this nature (bullet to the body) always a blow out (opposite entry) and not possibly a blow back (same side as entry)?
No answer(s) thus far, and we're quite a ways past it, so I'm asking again.
 
Hey, let's get one thing straight. I have no desire nor any hope of convincing you of anything. My only purpose is to point out the facts, and how you and other Lone Nutters deny them.
By the way, if that's your "only purpose," it would be quite convenient for you, wouldn't it? You tell yourself you're here to speak rather than listen and so you don't have to examine, refine, or reject any portion(s) of your position(s) based on what anyone says to you.

The term for the above is "close minded."
 
Baloney. This non-Federal court is really beyond both your pay grade and your comprehension. Judges can do whatever they want, but the standard is, any exhibit must be introduced with a foundation or it may be objected to and disallowed. In the court of public opinion, a photo without any validation is absolutely irrelevant. And you might be better informed if you understood that the assassination of a President in 1963 was not a Federal offense.

Oh I'm quite aware of what was what in 1963. However we are not in 1963 anymore alice.


As usual you just can't get anything correct so you just make it up from whole cloth as your go.

You are the perfect CT....
 
Quoting Cyril Wecht:

"Floyd Riebe, one of the official autopsy photographers, testified that "less than half the brain was there."

This testimony is Riebe's 30-year-old recollection of the wounds to Kennedy's head that he observed at autopsy. However, in the same testimony Riebe said he never got closer than 5 feet to Kennedy's head during the autopsy, that his recollection of the wounds observed at autopsy was not confident (and was, as he admitted later, in error), and that he had participated in only a few autopsies prior to Kennedy's -- none prior having been the victim of a gunshot wound. In fact, Riebe admitted not being present when the brain was weighed or examined by doctors.

Further, Riebe was shown the autopsy photos as recovered from the national archives and stated under oath that he had no reason to believe they were not the photos he and Stringer had taken during the autopsy.

Shown the official autopsy photographs of the brain that are currently at the National Archives, FBI agent Francis O'Neill, who witnessed the autopsy, claimed that the photogrpahs were inaccurate...

O'Neill never saw the photographs previously. The film was delivered to the Secret Service and developed, but the FBI never received the requested copies of them and so the first time O'Neill ever saw the autopsy photos was in 1996 at which time he was comparing them to his 30-year-old recollection of the events. Further, we see that O'Neill had undertaken a program of lecturing, reading, and writing on his experiences. In terms of witness testimony, this sort of activity typically has the effect of reinforcing embellishments and misrecollections over time. Hence his 30-year-old "enhanced" recollection is not a sufficient basis for impeaching the validity of photographs he had not previously seen.

Agent O'Neill recalls Kennedy's eyes being open during the autopsy and quibbles with the notion that the photos sometimes depict only half-closed eyes. Other witnesses testify that the President's eyes varied between open and closed, as efforts were made to keep them closed. He comments that the photos are "doctored" in the sense that the wound was evidently manipulated by doctors during the course of the autopsy, such as to reflect the lacerant. He does not seem to understand that this is intentional, is customary procedure, and was documented. This accounts for nearly all his statements that Wecht interprets as attesting to "inaccuracy." In fact O'Neill affirms that he does not question the authenticity of the photos, a fact Wecht suspiciously omits.

"The official autopsy report..."

Which of the three such reports?

"John stringer, the lead autopsy photographer, examined the autopsy photographs of the President's brain. He told the the Washington Post that the current pictures of the brain are not his and do not resemble anything he saw the night of the autopsy."

In his 1996 deposition Stringer could not properly recall the camera equipment or film that was used during Kennedy's first autopsy, nor whether certain types of photography were taken. In fact, Stringer's testimony is a whole long list of things he does not recall from previous testimony, yet for which there is documentary evidence. Stringer was ultimately unable to reconcile his misrecollections of the first autopsy with the documentary evidence.

The photographs in question, "of the brain," were from the supplementary autopsy after the brain had been removed for separate study. These have nothing to do with the head wound, or the photos taken during the general (first) autopsy. The casual reader isn't likely to notice that Stringer talks to the Post about photographs that have no bearing on the direction of the fatal shot. And whatever he may have said to the press, his statement under oath is that he had a poor recollection of what photography equipment, techniques, and coverage he employed at the supplementary autopsy.

Stringer testifies that the photographs he took of Kennedy's head wound have not been altered.

Stringer, by the way, explicitly denies that there was skeletal deficit to the occipital bone, that it was cracked only; the injury he describes was primarily to temporal and parietal bones. He also describes the feature previously identified by a doctor as a bullet entrance wound as being in the occipital-parietal region. Stringer's poor performance as a witness under oath notwithstanding, why do conspiracy theorists omit Stringer's confirmation of the opinion that the fatal head shot came from behind?

"Why is this important? It shows that the Kennedy assassination evidence has been tampered with. Someone does not want the truth to be known."

Each of the witnesses was asked specifically whether he had any reason to believe the autopsy photos had been tampered with, matted, or retouched since they were taken. None said he did, and affirmed that the photos were as they had been taken on the dates in question. The accusation of tampering is Wecht's alone and is not supported in this case by his evidence.
 
...any exhibit must be introduced with a foundation or it may be objected to and disallowed.

Again you keep confusing admissibility with truthfulness. The objection to the admission of evidence may occur on the basis of foundation, and for that purpose the bar is quite low. Challenges to the evidentiary value of the evidence must be made at trial. That is, in fact, the entire purpose of the trial. If the challenge is that the evidence has been altered or fabricated, then the party issuing that affirmative challenge has the burden of proof.

In the court of public opinion, a photo without any validation is absolutely irrelevant.

"Validation" is too vague. You seem to be claiming that the submitter of any exhibit in the form of a photograph must prove it cannot possibly have been fabricated by any means, as a condition of its consideration as evidence. Please give a source for this alleged requirement.
 
Photos?You haven't even determined what photos your are talking about. If the autopsy photos, which ones? If the ones's in question are refuted as not the ones the alleged photographers shot, then that is the end of it. There is no way such photos can be refuted as fake since they are fake to begin with.

This doesn't address my post.
 
Depending on the source, the number is very uncertain. It's just like Joseph Stalin's opinion of a democracy, namely, he said, it matters not who gets the most votes, but who counts the votes. And so it is with the Grassy Knoll witnesses. But I will say this, that majority of the up close witnesses said the fatal shot came from the grassy knoll.

Okay now, let's assume for a moment that what you claimed is true Robert.

(According to your claims over the course of the thread) What we have here is a vice-president who conspired with the CIA to kill the president. How they did this is they have an unknown party snipe and kill the president from the grassy knoll.

But they needed to have a fall guy, so here enters Oswald. They claim he shot and killed the president with a different gun than what was identified as the murder weapon from his work place, not the grassy knoll, and to convince people he and he alone did this they used an idiotic method to fake a photograph with him holding the weapon that was different from the identified murder weapon (don't forget the chin! They were able to place his body in the photo but used the wrong chin! Herp derp!) the Oswald claimed wasn't his. And then in order to silence him they used a third party to kill him and then silenced that third party... using cancer?

And you don't see anything wrong with this line of reasoning?
 
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